Derailment at Sudbury

[455driver]

It's a crime scene and until all the evidence is gathered the site cannot be touched except by those investigating the incident, just hope the driver and the injured are ok. If the scene is cleared without the evidence being gathered thoroughly the Lorry driver could get off scott free so don't knock the actions of those involved.

I know all that, please read my post above again, especially this bit-

Originally Posted by 455driver
I wonder if a motorway would be closed for that long when the facts have already been established!

 

[class395rules]

I hope everyone makes a quick and speedy recovery and the driver of the lorry gets whats coming to him in court as he has put a lot of families into a very worrying situation, especially those 2 with life threatening injuries.

 

[TDK]

I can't help but feel that as it's in the highway code that users of large or slow moving vehicles should use the telephones provided and seek permission before crossing, as well as being clear signs to that effect, he should actually have done so.

any vehicle be it a large lorry of a car "HAS" to call the signaller at a UWG crossing

No amount of safety equipment, which imposes a huge cost on the railways, will stop some idiots from misusing these crossings. In the end it boils down to personal responsibility.

People abuse all crossing including R/G light, AHB & MB crossing this sort of person could have done this even if there were R/G lights
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I know all that, please read my post above again, especially this bit-

If an accident on a motorway was severe enough the motorway would be closed until all evidence was gathered even if it took a week.

 

[68000]

I dont know the area but my immediate reaction is how is what looks to be a major access road to a sewage works deemed by Network Rail to be a user worked crossing!
Cant help but feel this crossing should have been equiped with at least red/green lights.

If a driver can't be bothered to phone a signaller, he ain't going to be bothered obeying lights now is he?

I would speculate that the driver left the gates open when he went in so that he could just drive right out.

 

[455driver]

any vehicle be it a large lorry of a car "HAS" to call the signaller at a UWG crossing

Even a motorbike rider should ring up, not sure about pushbikes though.

If an accident on a motorway was severe enough the motorway would be closed until all evidence was gathered even if it took a week.

Could you tell me the last time that happened then please!
I know what the rules are but I am talking real world, the coppers want to get the motorway opened up as quickly as possible EVERY time!

 

[90019]

Could you tell me the last time that happened then please!
I know what the rules are but I am talking real world, the coppers want to get the motorway opened up as quickly as possible EVERY time!

Generally, they will try and get part of the road open as soon as possible, or find a way to get traffic moving.
However, if it's a severe accident or the accident scene needs preserved for evidence, then they will keep as much of it closed as they need to whilst trying to maintain at least some traffic flow.

 

[Metroland]

any vehicle be it a large lorry of a car "HAS" to call the signaller at a UWG crossing

Quite so, seek permission to cross and tell the signaller when he or she is clear. Most accidents happen with these crossings because the users do not seek permission, a considerable cause of delay is also caused by them not ringing back.

The laziness and ignorance of some crossing users has to be seen to be believed.

 

[Dai.]

Could you tell me the last time that happened then please!
I know what the rules are but I am talking real world, the coppers want to get the motorway opened up as quickly as possible EVERY time!

M4 was closed eastbound last year.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7855246.stm

 

[WatcherZero]

not a good day for trains and waste vehicles:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11004596

 

[boing_uk]

In the case of a roas traffic collision where there is a liklihood of death after the collision due to injuries then yes, a collision will be treated as a crime scene until all available evidence is collected. Motorways have been closed for 24hrs in the past when evidence in particularly difficult scenes needed to be collected and vehicle actions reconstructed.

There are usually witness statements, differing accounts, pleas of amnesia etc etc. Where it is clear that a collision is caused by Driver A resulting in the deaths of Driver B then it doesnt take as long, as there is little crime scene / collision modelling to take place.

In this case, however, it is fairly clear cut; a two vehicle collision where Driver A doesnt phone signaller, puts vehicle on the crossing injudisciously and events play out.

If the statement came from suffolk police, I wouldnt put too much faith on their assertions... police statements are notoriously incorrect, as I see on an almost daily basis. Although given that most of tomorrow will be taken up with recovery perhaps, clearing of any hazardous effluent that may have been remaining in the vehicle and PW repairs possibly in to Thursday, then sure, it could very well be two days.

 

[455driver]

If the statement came from suffolk police, I wouldnt put too much faith on their assertions... police statements are notoriously incorrect, as I see on an almost daily basis. Although given that most of tomorrow will be taken up with recovery perhaps, clearing of any hazardous effluent that may have been remaining in the vehicle and PW repairs possibly in to Thursday, then sure, it could very well be two days.

This is the link to the "wont be going anywhere for 2 days"-
http://www.eadt.co.uk/news/police_inspector_gives_latest_train_crash_update_1_590190

So no recovery for 2 days so the line will be closed for at least 3 days probably 4!

 

[Invincibles]

M4 was closed eastbound last year.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7855246.stm

Motorways are often closed for a few hours, indeed this can get towards half a day. However it is very rare to get to 2 days as will be the case for this railway.

I suppose though if you consider the number of passengers incovenienced or the economic cost of closure then a short closure of a busy motorway would work out more than two days on this line.

However what must remain most important is that the police investigate fairly and thoroughly and that justice can then be done for all who have suffered as a consequence.

Hopefully the news for those who have been involved will get better soon and that all will make a speedy recovery.

 

[455driver]

Motorways are often closed for a few hours, indeed this can get towards half a day. However it is very rare to get to 2 days as will be the case for this railway.

Indeed, the link-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7855246.stm
wasnt very clear on how long the M4 was shut, didn't appear more than a few hours.

I suppose though if you consider the number of passengers incovenienced or the economic cost of closure then a short closure of a busy motorway would work out more than two days on this line.

It takes the same time to gather the evidence, in fact I would think it would take longer on a 3 lane motorway than a single track railway.

However what must remain most important is that the police investigate fairly and thoroughly and that justice can then be done for all who have suffered as a consequence.

So how come they can open a motorway much quicker!

Hopefully the news for those who have been involved will get better soon and that all will make a speedy recovery.

Agreed.

 

[Invincibles]

On time to gather the evidence, would it not be easier to see markings (skid etc) on tarmac than on ballast and rail? Similarly if there are shards of glass or pieces that have fallen off any of the vehicles are they not more readily identified on a flat surface?

My feeling is that there is more familiarity with road traffic accidents and as such that those dealing with them find it more natural to identify the key evidence from the scene quicker than they would in the (thankfully) rarer case of train collisions.

This is all hypothesising though and it may indeed be purely pressure on reopening roads is greater.

 

[Any Permitted]

It's kind of jolting for me since I ride 156417 all the time, in fact I'm sure I was on her yesterday. I don't know the procedure for these kind of things but I'm guessing they'll repair her rather than scrapping her.

It's odd to see it was working the Sudbury branch as it's kitted out in Bittern Line decals (all the tables inside have a map of the Bittern Line on them) and I usually see it working either that line or the Wherry Lines.

 

[Darandio]

I don't know the procedure for these kind of things but I'm guessing they'll repair her rather than scrapping her.

Well that is up in the air right at this moment, nobody knows the extent of the damage involved to the unit, at least one half anyway. I'd like to think the damage wasn't so severe that it wasn't unrepairable, the last thing the network needs is to lose another set, especially when we all keep referring to a shortage of stock, made even worse when it could potentially be caused by a mindless jerk who decided to ignore a simple safety procedure that, lets not forget, a few seconds earlier could have cost them their life.

 

[ainsworth74]

I don't know the procedure for these kind of things but I'm guessing they'll repair her rather than scrapping her.

Depends if there are any spare 156 cabs lying around, there is some video footage on the BBC report now and to my (admittedly untrained) eye it looks like a lot like a write off. Its been a bad year for 156's first the derailment up in Scotland and now this.

Hope all involved recover swiftly and fully.

 

[455driver]

(admittedly untrained) eye it looks like a lot like a write off.

Why, the cab is only made out of sheet metal over a frame, the bent (cab) metal is easy to replace but if the chassis or main structural members are bent then THAT will write it off much more than just a bent cab.

 

[ainsworth74]

Well that's what I was thinking the damage that I could see to the cab looked like it could also have done a number on the chassis itself, but the footage wasn't particularly clear (it looked like they were taking it a good 100 feet or so away).

 

[43167]

A shame some people cant use crossings properly. Hopefully the injuried will make a full & speedy recovery.

Maybe a hybrid unit can be formed using the undamaged coaches from this & the scotland derailment. This looks a mess, but repairable.

 

[Darandio]

Cosmetically, from those long viewpoints I think it stood up well, considering what it hit (again, an untrained eye looking on here) but at the same time, despite the cab looking fairly intact, reports suggest the driver hasn't done so well.

However, despite the fact that it hit an empty tank, in that circumstance, the majority of weight is towards the floor (axles) meaning that the chassis of the unit could be compromised but it is just a case of wait and see.

 

[O L Leigh]

The problem with the status of a crossing and the equipment provided is that it is often dependent on the status of the road itself. Reading the RAIB report into the fatal collision between a WAGN (now FCC) Cl365 and a tractor towing a trailer load of potatoes on Black Horse Drove crossing illustrates this point nicely.

Where a public road crosses a railway line there are required to be certain safeguards in the form of controlled crossings with full barriers, warning lights and klaxons or automatic crossings with (or without) half barriers, warning lights and klaxons. Where it is a private road that crosses the line the safeguards need not be as stringent. There will usually be a user-worked gate or barrier, maybe some red/green lights and in all circumstances I am aware of where vehicles may cross the line, a direct phone link to the controlling signaller. This applies no matter how large or how busy the crossing is.

The big problem with user-worked crossings, and the primary reason behind all collisions on them, is misuse. There were some extenuating circumstances at Black Horse Drove, but the primary cause looks like being the same.

As to the unit, well the Cl365 hit the tractor at not much less than 90mph and was repaired and returned to service. Generally speaking the visible damage is above floor height and should be easily repaired.

Still not very happy about it, though. I just hope that everyone involved has a speedy recovery, especially the two listed as having major injuries. Obviously the driver didn't have a lot of warning to get out of the cab, which has always been my nightmare scenario. There isn't much space in behind the desk.

O L Leigh

 

[WL113]

Because, grammatically and physically speaking, the train did crash into the lorry.[/QUOTE ]

....that had no right to be on the crossing without first having contacted the Signaller.

Let us hope that the LGV driver receives a long prison sentence. The signs at crossings are clear. There is no excuse for this.

 

[willas00]

Taken from the BBC Video footage they have...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
BBC confirm 21 injured 2 serious.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-11006018

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Because, grammatically and physically speaking, the train did crash into the lorry.[/QUOTE ]

....that had no right to be on the crossing without first having contacted the Signaller.

Let us hope that the LGV driver receives a long prison sentence. The signs at crossings are clear. There is no excuse for this.

Did I say it was an excuse? No.

 

[Metroland]

Motorways are often closed for a few hours, indeed this can get towards half a day. However it is very rare to get to 2 days as will be the case for this railway.

I suppose though if you consider the number of passengers incovenienced or the economic cost of closure then a short closure of a busy motorway would work out more than two days on this line.

However what must remain most important is that the police investigate fairly and thoroughly and that justice can then be done for all who have suffered as a consequence.

Hopefully the news for those who have been involved will get better soon and that all will make a speedy recovery.

In this case yes, but it does not excuse the 6 week closure of the ECML after the Hatfield derailment. Some railways carry more passengers than motorways and are arguably economically more important.

 

[Z12XE]

It's odd to see it was working the Sudbury branch as it's kitted out in Bittern Line decals (all the tables inside have a map of the Bittern Line on them) and I usually see it working either that line or the Wherry Lines.

Not odd at all - any of the 156 units in the fleet can work that diagram on a weekday.

 

[paul1609]

The problem with the status of a crossing and the equipment provided is that it is often dependent on the status of the road itself. Reading the RAIB report into the fatal collision between a WAGN (now FCC) Cl365 and a tractor towing a trailer load of potatoes on Black Horse Drove crossing illustrates this point nicely.

Where a public road crosses a railway line there are required to be certain safeguards in the form of controlled crossings with full barriers, warning lights and klaxons or automatic crossings with (or without) half barriers, warning lights and klaxons. Where it is a private road that crosses the line the safeguards need not be as stringent. There will usually be a user-worked gate or barrier, maybe some red/green lights and in all circumstances I am aware of where vehicles may cross the line, a direct phone link to the controlling signaller. This applies no matter how large or how busy the crossing is.

The big problem with user-worked crossings, and the primary reason behind all collisions on them, is misuse. There were some extenuating circumstances at Black Horse Drove, but the primary cause looks like being the same.

As to the unit, well the Cl365 hit the tractor at not much less than 90mph and was repaired and returned to service. Generally speaking the visible damage is above floor height and should be easily repaired.

Still not very happy about it, though. I just hope that everyone involved has a speedy recovery, especially the two listed as having major injuries. Obviously the driver didn't have a lot of warning to get out of the cab, which has always been my nightmare scenario. There isn't much space in behind the desk.

O L Leigh

I think you'll find that the protection provided at crossings is supposed to be governed by the number of vehicle movements and who has access to the crossing rather than the status or ownership of the road.

It would be interesting to see the logs at Liverpool St to see how many phone calls they receive in a week for this crossing and when the crossing was last risk accessed by Network Rail.

I still reckon by the current criteria this should have had red/green warning lights as a minimum.

 

[trainfanatic]

Forgive me for perhaps being a bit naive, but has anyone ever investigated the possibility of fitting some kind of sensor to these and every other type of LC that would detect the presence of a vehicle and on activation would put all rail signals at danger?

I'm aware in this and similar cases that, depending on line/train speeds, there might not be time for a train to stop in time, but worth considering? Am I missing something?

 

[yorksrob]

I still reckon by the current criteria this should have had red/green warning lights as a minimum.

As long as the owners of the roads are made to pay for this out of their budgets.