Deltic (Class 55) query at terminuses

[Magdalia]

Why would it differ from, say, a Class 40?

Fine control at low speed, and lines of sight. The Deltic nose is higher so the cab is also higher, with the side windows curved inwards, instead of being vertical.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Fine control at low speed, and lines of sight. The Deltic nose is higher so the cab is also higher, with the side windows curved inwards, instead of being vertical.

Nevertheless Deltics did run to Cleethorpes in the final years (both of the class and of direct services from London to South Humberside). So how were services handled there?

 

[Magdalia]

In the twilight era of the Deltics some worked to and from Hull, and they made some use of the bay platforms at York, but my recollection is that the loco would be shunt released by the station pilot. I suspect that the same happened for Deltics at other locations, though unsure about Cleethorpes, I can't remember if they had a station pilot.

Nevertheless Deltics did run to Cleethorpes in the final years (both of the class and of direct services from London to South Humberside). So how were services handled there?

See above. Cleethorpes did have a run round see here:

Cleethorpes

Cleaners descend on an arrival from Manchester Piccadilly at Cleethorpes headed by 31448 of Immingham on 28 August 1986. Pentax K1000/50mm Ilford FP4

www.flickr.com

Cleaners descend on an arrival from Manchester Piccadilly at Cleethorpes headed by 31448 of Immingham on 28 August 1986.

 

[The exile]

Why would it differ from, say, a Class 40?

Would have thought that the nightmare would have been doing it at Kings Cross at all - rather than with any specific class of loco. The problem in big cities (as opposed to seaside termini, for example) is that the carriage sidings were usually a relatively long way out. At King's Cross , any such move would have involved propelling through tunnels up steepish gradients (I believe that one of the quirks of the ECML is that its steepest gradients are right off the platform ends at either end [out of Kings Cross and into Waverley]). Running round at termini requires either a centre road between platform roads (often sacrificed as stations got busier) or the adjacent platform to be empty - not often the case at busy London termini.
As has been stated elsewhere, the intensive use of coaching stock that we know today is a relatively modern phenomenon - inbound trains would frequently disappear off to the carriage sidings for cleaning, watering, stocking (restaurant cars etc) - closely followed by the inbound train engine.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Fine control at low speed, and lines of sight. The Deltic nose is higher so the cab is also higher, with the side windows curved inwards, instead of being vertical.

And a traction set up that made them completely unsuitable for shunting. You think you have no power and then suddenly it kicks in - do not ever think handling these locos at low speed is easy.

As you said, most releases pre-1977 was by the departure of the train but there were some release crossovers at the buffer stop ends that were progressively less used as the years went by as the stock utilisation improved. These disappeared completely when the station was remodelled in 1976/7.

Pre HST, the Deltics at the London end were never diagrammed to 34G/FP - that was always a control move for maintenance/repairs. So they went in and out of KX Passenger Loco and they were kept very busy - because that was what was best for them. In 1977 the engine off the 0800 off Edinburgh (which had left HA at 0725) was diagrammed to be on the Pass Loco between 1415 and 1530 before heading north on the 1600 and after arrival at Edinburgh, went onto Haymarket and was sent back up to KX on the 0005 overnight train, thus doing 3 runs in just over 24 hours.

This wasn’t unique in 1977 either. The 0040 from Edinburgh arrived at KX at 0714 and the loco was booked to be on the Pass Loco between 0833 and 0940 before it worked the 10 o’clock down. It was then on Haymarket between 1539 and 1625 before heading the 1700 Up from Edinburgh. That was 3 runs in just under 24 hours.

In those days it was unusual for an unrestricted type 4 or 5 to be handling ECS out of the Cross. Taking trains out to Holloway or Ferme Park (for Bounds Green) and bringing them back in from places like Hornsey CS was nearly always a cl.31 job. The station pilot at KX (which we knew as “1 shunt”) was a cl.31 held in the milk dock and used for attaching/detaching moves, such as vans or the odd caterer. It was also used to detach defective vehicles, which thankfully was a rare occasion.

After the advent of the HSTs and the closure of the pass loco, it all changed for locos at the KX end - the pace slackened and you could find all sorts on the ECS.

 

[jfollows]

A Stratford Class 37 in my day.

1970

 

[edwin_m]

Would have thought that the nightmare would have been doing it at Kings Cross at all - rather than with any specific class of loco. The problem in big cities (as opposed to seaside termini, for example) is that the carriage sidings were usually a relatively long way out. At King's Cross , any such move would have involved propelling through tunnels up steepish gradients (I believe that one of the quirks of the ECML is that its steepest gradients are right off the platform ends at either end [out of Kings Cross and into Waverley]). Running round at termini requires either a centre road between platform roads (often sacrificed as stations got busier) or the adjacent platform to be empty - not often the case at busy London termini.
As has been stated elsewhere, the intensive use of coaching stock that we know today is a relatively modern phenomenon - inbound trains would frequently disappear off to the carriage sidings for cleaning, watering, stocking (restaurant cars etc) - closely followed by the inbound train engine.

Also a big city station was more likely to have frequent enough service for the loco off an arriving train to be used on a departure within a reasonable time. Seaside termini also had many excursions, which were not part of the regular timetable so couldn't share resources with other trains. They would almost always have to planned on the basis that the stock sat idle near the terminus until it was time to form the return working, and the same loco probably also worked both ways.

 

[Taunton]

To use the loco release crossover you need to stop the train short of the normal position at the buffers, so the loco can move forward and then reverse clear. This presumably needs some additional effort and possibly staffing. Not an issue at a through station where the loco can just move off forward and around under signals.

 

[Helvellyn]

The original question was about Deltics at Kings Cross.

The subsequent discussion suggests a lack of appreciation of the uniqueness of Deltic operation.

The Deltics were a small fleet and there were ECML trains booked for Deltic haulage that had faster timings than those booked for Type 4s. Up to the introduction of HSTs the ECML long distance service was not regular interval, but designed to make maximum use of the Deltics, with everything else fitting around that.

I think this was why the Eastern Region (ER) had originally wanted 23 Deltics and the fleet of 22 made things just that bit tighter. I believe once DP2 was assigned to the ER it was almost treated as a Deltic for diagramming (happy to be proved wrong on that!), so it's write-off in the Thirsk accident removed that buffer.

 

[thesignalman]

I think this was why the Eastern Region (ER) had originally wanted 23 Deltics and the fleet of 22 made things just that bit tighter. I believe once DP2 was assigned to the ER it was almost treated as a Deltic for diagramming (happy to be proved wrong on that!), so it's write-off in the Thirsk accident removed that buffer.

Very unlikely, I think. As far as I remember its regular job was the 1220 to Hull and back.

John

 

[Davester50]

Yes, the Waterloo loco-releases were a very sprightly affair.
Euston, conversely - surprising, in light of its intensive usage - I'd see 85s, 86s & 87s sometimes sat at the buffers for ages.

It was the siding of quietly ticking over light engines that is my abiding memory of watching the overnight and pre-DVT services at Euston.

 

[Sun Chariot]

It was the siding of quietly ticking over light engines that is my abiding memory of watching the overnight and pre-DVT services at Euston.

Your post has wonderfully conjured up my memories of that sound

 

[Davester50]

Your post has wonderfully conjured up my memories of that sound

I've just been watching a few videos on YouTube of shunt moves, so thanks to the early videographers who recorded what was the mundane at the time!
spompeytransportvideo has a good example of the original train loco following the train out of the platform right at the end of the video linked below.

 

[Magdalia]

I think this was why the Eastern Region (ER) had originally wanted 23 Deltics and the fleet of 22 made things just that bit tighter. I believe once DP2 was assigned to the ER it was almost treated as a Deltic for diagramming (happy to be proved wrong on that!), so it's write-off in the Thirsk accident removed that buffer.

The original Eastern Region proposal was for a fleet of 23 Deltic locos. The British Transport Commission knocked that back to 22.

For most of its life on the ECML, DP2 was used as a Type 4 notably on the Yorkshire Pullman and Sheffield Pullman.

According to Napier Chronicles, the number of Deltic diagrams was increased from 17 to 18 in the March 1967 timetable change..

DP2 was working a Deltic turn, the 1200 Kings Cross-Edinburgh, when it was written off in the Thirsk collision.

 

[Trackman]

Piccadilly platforms 5 & 6 used once a day by the engine for the Harwich boat train. Arrive platform 5 13:18 and stop short of the buffers. Engine run round through platform 6. Train departs 15:15. As in the 1977 timetable. Never a Deltic, though (a class 45 usually). Run-round between 13:35 and 13:55 between booked services for platform 6.

I've seen it in action. There was a wooden box with an electric ground frame switch at the front of the platform behind the buffers. Suppose it was there when time was of the essence, as the PSB couldn't see what was going on.

 

[Strathclyder]

I've just been watching a few videos on YouTube of shunt moves, so thanks to the early videographers who recorded what was the mundane at the time!
spompeytransportvideo has a good example of the original train loco following the train out of the platform right at the end of the video linked below.

He also has a clip of the same thing happening at the other end of the WCML at Glasgow Central (timestamped vid below). You can make out an 87 following the 86 and it's train out of Platform 3 before a 104 DMU blocks the view:

 

[norbitonflyer]

(North CVoujntry Continental class 37s) 1970

Certainly later than that, as I didn't start taking an interest until 1972, and 37s remained on them at least until the service was diveretred away from the "Joint" line the following year. 1M72, complete with LNER buffet car.

 

[Adrian Barr]

I'm too young to remember Deltics at Kings Cross, although I do have vague memories of blue 31s on empty stock workings there in the 1980s.

Some brief YouTube clips that give a flavour of the Deltic era: The first is a slideshow which mentions the complex moves required to access the stabling point. The second shows some train movements at Kings Cross in the late 60s, and the third shows some Deltics shunting about at Kings Cross in the 1970s, in between some general ECML footage

A look back at Kings Cross in the 1970s | Boogies Trains

Kings Cross circa 1968/9 | Smoky John

ECML & Deltics at Kings Cross | ta455driver

 

[ac6000cw]

I've just been watching a few videos on YouTube of shunt moves, so thanks to the early videographers who recorded what was the mundane at the time!
spompeytransportvideo has a good example of the original train loco following the train out of the platform right at the end of the video linked below.

He also has a clip of the same thing happening at the other end of the WCML at Glasgow Central (timestamped vid below). You can make out an 87 following the 86 and it's train out of Platform 3 before a 104 DMU blocks the view:

Yes, very much mundane everyday operation - it was the same at Manchester Piccadilly in the late 1970s when I lived there for a while.

As an example of loco movements at major through station, at Birmingham New Street the AC locos on the terminating Euston trains used to run round via another platform line rather than do a loco swap, as would the locos on the Paddington trains (IIRC both had at least 30 minute turnarounds, so there was time to do that in a station somewhat less busy than today). What we now call XC trains that reversed there would swap locos, either electric - diesel (NW-SW) or diesel - diesel (NE-SE), with the incoming loco then sometimes following the train out to park in the loco sidings or trundle off to Saltley for fuel before its next turn.