Delay Repay fraudsters caught!

[AlterEgo]

Fraudsters who falsely claimed compensation from London Midlands over delayed trains have been dealt with by magistrates in Northampton.

Ben Akhigbe of Wootton, Northampton, and Colin Bretherton, of Towcester, were the first to be prosecuted by the train company for this type of fare fiddling.

“London Midland has now trained its customer relations staff to spot unusual patterns in claims including so-called ‘impossible journeys’ where a passenger claims to be on more than one train at a time. These claims are then passed on to a specialist unit for further investigation.”

Read more: http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/n...tion-for-train-delays-1-7446222#ixzz4DdSRzcg8

Tip of the iceberg.

 

[All Line Rover]

The simplest solution to this would be for guards to hand out coupons to passengers when services are delayed. The cost would be minimal and it would show that passengers who have a genuinely varied commute are making valid claims.

Wouldn't work on London Midland though, as the guards are never to be found! You'd almost think London Midland was already DOO.

 

[Flamingo]

A similar case was in this months Railnews...

 

[Tim R-T-C]

They can catch people trying to make profit off the system, but there must be some out there, slowly claiming away, just doing it to essentially cut the cost of their season tickets and ultimately there is little the companies can do to find them at present.

Having electronic tickets would make this a lot easier to detect, conductors could scan the tickets of all those onboard a disrupted service to process their discount automatically and not allow others to claim.

 

[yorksrob]

I suspect that the advent of monetary compensation has proven more of a temptation than vouchers for a service in kind.

 

[35B]

They can catch people trying to make profit off the system, but there must be some out there, slowly claiming away, just doing it to essentially cut the cost of their season tickets and ultimately there is little the companies can do to find them at present.

Having electronic tickets would make this a lot easier to detect, conductors could scan the tickets of all those onboard a disrupted service to process their discount automatically and not allow others to claim.

So what happens when - and I mean when rather than if - tickets aren't inspected?

 

[All Line Rover]

They can catch people trying to make profit off the system, but there must be some out there, slowly claiming away, just doing it to essentially cut the cost of their season tickets and ultimately there is little the companies can do to find them at present.

Having electronic tickets would make this a lot easier to detect, conductors could scan the tickets of all those onboard a disrupted service to process their discount automatically and not allow others to claim.

What would be easier on a Pendolino with 600 passengers? Walking through the carriages handing out paper coupons, or stopping for each passenger to manually scan their ticket/phone/printout/whatever? And what is preventing the former method from being implemented immediately?

 

[Bald Rick]

What would be easier on a Pendolino with 600 passengers? Walking through the carriages handing out paper coupons, or stopping for each passenger to manually scan their ticket/phone/printout/whatever? And what is preventing the former method from being implemented immediately?

Or a 12 car Thameslink train with 1500 people on it!

You'd need to make 2 claims: one for the original delay, and one for being in a queue with 1499 other people waiting to get your form.

 

[Flamingo]

A few months ago, I was quite horrified to be handed a bunch of green RTV's to pay for an upgrade by one of the most prolific fare evaders known (he has done jail time for fraud costing the railway tens of thousands).

The SOB owes us thousands, and is claiming compensation!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The easiest way to reduce this effect would be to revert to season ticket compensation being on renewal, and Delay Repay only for singles and returns.

A move to e-tickets for the latter, where "grips" were recorded on a database, would make fraudulent claims on singles and returns much easier to detect where tickets were inspected.

 

[EM2]

The easiest way to reduce this effect would be to revert to season ticket compensation being on renewal

Hardly fair if you don't renew for whatever reason.

 

[All Line Rover]

Or a 12 car Thameslink train with 1500 people on it!

You'd need to make 2 claims: one for the original delay, and one for being in a queue with 1499 other people waiting to get your form.

I don't mean a form. I mean a stack of coupons which could be quickly handed out to affected passengers. Even with DOO services they could be handed out at the gateline. Simple and cheap.

 

[BestWestern]

A few months ago, I was quite horrified to be handed a bunch of green RTV's to pay for an upgrade by one of the most prolific fare evaders known (he has done jail time for fraud costing the railway tens of thousands).

The SOB owes us thousands, and is claiming compensation!

Which is why any such offence should result in a lifetime ASBO!

 

[All Line Rover]

Hardly fair if you don't renew for whatever reason.

Or if your commute happens to involve a train which is particularly badly affected but doesn't dent the TOC's overall punctuality.

 

[richw]

The simplest solution to this would be for guards to hand out coupons to passengers when services are delayed. The cost would be minimal and it would show that passengers who have a genuinely varied commute are making valid claims.

Wouldn't work on London Midland though, as the guards are never to be found! You'd almost think London Midland was already DOO.

I was caught up in a delayed cross country service, 121 late. The train manager came through marking every ticket with his head code and date/time. Those with seasons short enough for delay repay, he gave a blank ticket and marked that with the train info.
He announced only delay repay claims with his marks would be accepted.

Crosscountry were very efficient with sending the RTVs.

It got me thinking, what if the train was due at 0900, someone turned up at the station at say 1100 expecting to catch say a train at 1115 and the 0900 turns up at 1105 and they board that would they have a claim as the train they were on is delayed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It got me thinking, what if the train was due at 0900, someone turned up at the station at say 1100 expecting to catch say a train at 1115 and the 0900 turns up at 1105 and they board that would they have a claim as the train they were on is delayed.

Delay Repay is paid based on your actual journey, so no, they would not be entitled to claim. Quite often a delayed train has got me to my destination earlier than expected!

 

[All Line Rover]

It got me thinking, what if the train was due at 0900, someone turned up at the station at say 1100 expecting to catch say a train at 1115 and the 0900 turns up at 1105 and they board that would they have a claim as the train they were on is delayed.

Technically no, but unless the passenger usually takes the 11:00, it will be difficult to prove that they didn't intend to catch the 09:00 and waited at home because the knew the train would be delayed.

I don't hang around at a station for two hours if I know the train I intend to catch will be heavily delayed and there is no alternative available.

 

[AlterEgo]

A few months ago, I was quite horrified to be handed a bunch of green RTV's to pay for an upgrade by one of the most prolific fare evaders known (he has done jail time for fraud costing the railway tens of thousands).

The SOB owes us thousands, and is claiming compensation!

IIRC you're GWR and I would bet my house on us thinking of the same person!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Those with seasons short enough for delay repay, he gave a blank ticket and marked that with the train info.

He announced only delay repay claims with his marks would be accepted.

All seasons are eligible for Delay Repay on XC. Even annuals.

He was also wrong in asserting that only marked tickets would qualify for Delay Repay. There is no requirement for a ticket to be marked to make a claim.

 

[cuccir]

If you compare the railway's offer to what happens with flights, busses or rail travel in other countries, then to be honest it seems very generous and open to manipulation. Of course, that's off-set by our very high fares. I can see how high-level systematic abusers can be caught, but it would be very difficult to catch occasional/opportunistic abuses without fundamental changes to how it operates.

 

[jon0844]

I am too lazy to claim for genuine delays half the time, but can see why people could get addicted to searching train data and making false claims, especially as without being monitored or messing up (as in the above example), it would be hard to prove a ticket holder wasn't on a particular service.

It might seem highly unlikely, but that's not a good enough reason to refuse a claim.

 

[6Gman]

They can catch people trying to make profit off the system, but there must be some out there, slowly claiming away, just doing it to essentially cut the cost of their season tickets and ultimately there is little the companies can do to find them at present.

Having electronic tickets would make this a lot easier to detect, conductors could scan the tickets of all those onboard a disrupted service to process their discount automatically and not allow others to claim.

Good luck with that on a packed 12car Desiro or 11car Pendolino!

 

[richw]

I am too lazy to claim for genuine delays half the time, but can see why people could get addicted to searching train data and making false claims, especially as without being monitored or messing up (as in the above example), it would be hard to prove a ticket holder wasn't on a particular service.

It might seem highly unlikely, but that's not a good enough reason to refuse a claim.

I've never bothered except when the XC TM was encouraging claims. I'm just happy to get to my destination.
I've always (probably wrongly) assumed that when passing through ticket barriers it will know my entry times and exit times to know if I was within the railway at times of delay.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't mean a form. I mean a stack of coupons which could be quickly handed out to affected passengers. Even with DOO services they could be handed out at the gateline. Simple and cheap.

Except at the gate line, the voucher givers would need to know for sure which train people had been on. Not so easy at busy stations.

 

[Abpj17]

I don't mean a form. I mean a stack of coupons which could be quickly handed out to affected passengers. Even with DOO services they could be handed out at the gateline. Simple and cheap.

But hugely impractical for busy commuter trains, trains at night when stations aren't staffed/gatelines open.

Neil's right that the 5%/10% season ticket discounts should return - but my understanding is that it was a DfT decision to remove them from new franchises rather than a TOC decision.

The light at the end of the tunnel will be smart ticketing (probably - I can still see it getting confused because they only record stations not trains!)

 

[N228PF]

The only "sure" way to prove someone is on a train is if you made someone tap on to a train at the doors not when entering the system.

In theory, I'm sure it's possible with all the new tech advances for either an RFID card that senses when you're on board a train and charges you based on those movements,

Or an iPhone app that can do something with a built in network

Another option would be displaying a verification code on the Dot Matrix screens that would act like those coupons mentioned earlier

 

[Flamingo]

The only "sure" way to prove someone is on a train is if you made someone tap on to a train at the doors not when entering the system.

In theory, I'm sure it's possible with all the new tech advances for either an RFID card that senses when you're on board a train and charges you based on those movements,

Or an iPhone app that can do something with a built in network

Another option would be displaying a verification code on the Dot Matrix screens that would act like those coupons mentioned earlier

All of these only "prove" you were there. The challenge for the Fraud Prevention Team is proving you were NOT there...

 

[bb21]

Compulsory ID cards, compulsory gating at every station and access the station by scanning your ID. Compulsory scanning on boarding a service too. There, problem solved.

ID cards to cost £200 per person - £100 to fund the ID card scheme and £100 to fund the infrastructure costs. Why not?!

(The above is not a serious proposal, in the event of anyone with a sense of humour failure. It simply shows that it can be made foolproof - almost - but there is usually a cost.)

Or alternatively get rid of this whole compensation thing and spend the expected outgoings on compensation payments on reducing fares.

I wonder how the world existed before the compensation culture got a foothold.

 

[ainsworth74]

Delay Repay is paid based on your actual journey, so no, they would not be entitled to claim. Quite often a delayed train has got me to my destination earlier than expected!

Yes I was once three hours early at my destination thanks to a delayed train! I was travelling from Chester to East Croydon and was on an AP which had me booked on a stopping VTWC service from Crewe to Milton Keynes and then a Southern service from Milton Keynes to Clapham Junction.

My VTWC service was cancelled earlier in its journey and the TM of the next service to London (which was non-stop from Crewe) was more than happy to allow me travel.

Needless to say I didn't claim for Delay Repay in this case!

 

[SickyNicky]

You'd also need some kind of biometric sensor(s) to ensure that the ID isn't stolen

Compulsory ID cards, compulsory gating at every station and access the station by scanning your ID. Compulsory scanning on boarding a service too. There, problem solved.

ID cards to cost £200 per person - £100 to fund the ID card scheme and £100 to fund the infrastructure costs. Why not?!

(The above is not a serious proposal, in the event of anyone with a sense of humour failure. It simply shows that it can be made foolproof - almost - but there is usually a cost.)

Or alternatively get rid of this whole compensation thing and spend the expected outgoings on compensation payments on reducing fares.

I wonder how the world existed before the compensation culture got a foothold.

 

[bb21]

You'd also need some kind of biometric sensor(s) to ensure that the ID isn't stolen

You've just given me a better idea. Use fingerprint technology instead of ID cards.