delay repay and terror alerts

[hi2u_uk]

yesterday at london bridge some guy said he had a bomb or gun or something . This caused severe delays and cancellations. Are you able to claim delay repay on this from south eastern trains ?

 

[user15681]

Yes you can claim Delay Repay for the incident on Thursday. The cause or person/thing responsible for the delay to your journey is irrelevant - if you were delayed you can claim.

Edit: On the website...

Security incident impacts service, Thursday 11 September
Date: 11 Sep 2014

A security operation onboard a train near London Bridge station on Thursday evening (11 September) caused wide-spread disruption to services.

For safety reasons trains were suspended while emergency services attended, however as a result there were delays and cancellations.

We're sorry if your journey was affected. If you were delayed by more than 30 minutes you can claim Delay Repay here.

 

[Merseysider]

yesterday at london bridge some guy said he had a bomb or gun or something . This caused severe delays and cancellations. Are you able to claim delay repay on this from south eastern trains ?

The information is on Southeastern's website. They operate a delay repay scheme which recompenses passengers for delays of thirty minutes or more, regardless of the cause.

Being the anniversary of 9/11, some crackpot was bound to create a scene of some sort. It's quite sad really.

 

[hi2u_uk]

cool, trains have been delayed tonight as well for some unknown reason so i think i will be making a claim as 2 days in a row of significant delays doesnt make me happy

 

[bb21]

... although I don't think some people find it morally justified to claim in these cases, similarly to when there is a fatality caused by suicide and some other selected causes.

The answer doesn't change however.

 

[Merseysider]

... although I don't think some people find it morally justified to claim in these cases, similarly to when there is a fatality caused by suicide and some other selected causes.

The answer doesn't change however.

This is why I would prefer it if all delay repay cases were subject to the delay being caused specifically by something within the rail industry's control

 

[455driver]

... although I don't think some people find it morally justified to claim in these cases, similarly to when there is a fatality caused by suicide and some other selected causes.

The answer doesn't change however.

And some people think its great that they can get a few quid back no matter the cause, they dont care about the poor bugger* whose head has gone through the front of the train or the poor bugger* who was driving the train at the time as long as they can get their money back and have a free ride.

* there are many other poor buggers involved in these incidents but you get the idea.

 

[Abpj17]

And all of that contributes to why delay repay doesn't work for season tickets (which I'm assuming the OP has). Take all the hassle and admin out of it and just do a %age discount on the next period's travel, or a partial refund. Then the ATOC can sent whatever reasonable measure it wants for the nature of incidents (and drop the 30min requirement for commuter journeys!)

 

[najaB]

And all of that contributes to why delay repay doesn't work for season tickets (which I'm assuming the OP has)....

That's why (some?) TOCs have set performance standards which, if they fail to meet, entitle season ticket holders to a discount. For example, most Scotrail season ticket holders are entitled to a discount if more than 10% of trains are late and/or cancelled.

 

[IanXC]

I have seen suggestions that people are going to claim and then give the compensation to the Samaritans. Clearly that's not currently easy from an administrative point of view. Given the rail industry's relationship with that charity, does anyone know if a formal method has been/is being investigated?

Something like a tick box "if this delay was caused by (insert specified causes, eg a suicide or terror alert) please forward any compensation due to me to the Samaritans". Passenger then gets a letter explaining as per usual, then thanking them for their donation...

 

[yorkie]

Will TOCs be donating their delay payments from Network Rail?

Should TOC MDs, managers and shareholders feel guilty when they receive compensation for delays attributable to Network Rail but which are out of NRs control?

(that's a rhetorical question; we all known the answer!)

 

[CyrusWuff]

And all of that contributes to why delay repay doesn't work for season tickets (which I'm assuming the OP has). Take all the hassle and admin out of it and just do a %age discount on the next period's travel, or a partial refund. Then the ATOC can sent whatever reasonable measure it wants for the nature of incidents (and drop the 30min requirement for commuter journeys!)

You could even call it...ooh...a Passenger's Charter discount. They've existed since 1992(ish), but TOCs are generally being switched to Delay Repay as franchises are renewed.

Having said that, FGW (London and Thames Valley, i.e. ex-Thames Trains) have been giving a 5% punctuality discount for an extended period of time, so I'm surprised they haven't switched yet.

 

[greatkingrat]

I am sure Southeastern would have already claimed back compensation from Network Rail, regardless of the reason for the incident. So if you don't in turn claim back from the TOC you are just making the TOC's shareholders richer.

Having Delay Repay payable for any reasons, provides TOCs with an incentive to try and get the service back to normal as quickly as possible once the initial incident is resolved.

 

[455driver]

I am sure Southeastern would have already claimed back compensation from Network Rail, regardless of the reason for the incident. So if you don't in turn claim back from the TOC you are just making the TOC's shareholders richer.

Oh so you are claiming out of your responsibility to prevent the nasty TOC getting any richer, very noble of you.

Of course you might like to bear in mind that the TOC will have to pay the driver involved to stay at home so they can sort their head out, possible for some considerable time. The driver might need counselling which will be provided by (and paid for by) the nasty TOC. The TOC might have to pay to have the train cleaned and might not be able to run a full service while the unit is stopped so will be fined for that etc etc. But hey lets just concentrate on the direct money side of things and not let the after effects get in the way! :roll:

Having Delay Repay payable for any reasons, provides TOCs with an incentive to try and get the service back to normal as quickly as possible once the initial incident is resolved.

Yeah because they all want to cause maximum delays to rake in a few extra quid dont they!
I mean it isnt like the TOC give a sh+t about the passengers or the staff dealing with the incident is it!
There are procedures that need to be followed, and these take time, I mean it isnt like they just need the one bag to pick the bits up is it, the last one I was involved in (I wasnt driving) consisted of 2 big bags and 3 small ones so you can guess how long it took to make the site suitable to move the train back through (the train couldnt be driven from the front because of the damage caused by the impact) and if you can come up with some other workable solution then I am sure the BTP (and lots of other companies) would love to hear about it.

 

[najaB]

Having Delay Repay payable for any reasons, provides TOCs with an incentive to try and get the service back to normal as quickly as possible once the initial incident is resolved.

Yeah because they all want to cause maximum delays to rake in a few extra quid dont they!
I mean it isnt like the TOC give a sh+t about the passengers or the staff dealing with the incident is it!

I really don't think that greatkingrat's statement was actually that far of the mark. While a "person under" fatality is a personal tragedy and is without doubt a very stressful event for everyone involved after the fact, there needs to be a balance struck between the safety and emotional needs of the responders, and the hundreds or thousands of people each of whom will also be affected despite not being directly involved.

While it can seem self-centred, these people most likely don't know the driver, the person(s) who died or anyone else involved - all they know is that they paid for transportation to work or home and aren't getting there. Having delay repay available regardless of the cause would focus everyone's attention on getting the railway back up and running as quickly as is reasonable.

 

[Tetchytyke]

... although I don't think some people find it morally justified to claim in these cases, similarly to when there is a fatality caused by suicide and some other selected causes.

And that's something that I really don't understand.

The TOCs and FOCs have no moral issues with bunging in a delay attribution claim after a fatality, they don't let Network Rail keep the money. They just add up the pounds and pence and demand the cheque. We know from the TSSA that the TOCs make around £150m a year in profits because of these types of delays. The fat cats are happy to take the cash, why should passengers be any different?

And it's not as though the money from my £7.90 Delay Repay claim woould otherwise go to the driver, the driver's family, the deceased's family or [insert charity of your choice here].

Maybe if the £100,000 or so in Delay Repay claims went to The Samaritans after a "one under" in the evening peak I'd feel differently. I quite like the idea of being able to choose this option when claiming.

 

[bb21]

And it's not as though the money from my £7.90 Delay Repay claim woould otherwise go to the driver, the driver's family, the deceased's family or [insert charity of your choice here].

You are oversimplifying these issues.

Did you not read what 455driver said?

No one is going to stop you claiming. Other people feel uncomfortable about it.

 

[Abpj17]

You could even call it...ooh...a Passenger's Charter discount. They've existed since 1992(ish), but TOCs are generally being switched to Delay Repay as franchises are renewed.

Having said that, FGW (London and Thames Valley, i.e. ex-Thames Trains) have been giving a 5% punctuality discount for an extended period of time, so I'm surprised they haven't switched yet.

Yeah; I know I grump because Thameslink used to use that (and of course were so bad you always got a 10% discount), and FCC changed it to the 30 mins system.

 

[hi2u_uk]

this is interesting. In London at least once each month someone ends up under the train however london underground seem to be more effective at resuming a normal service. In Thursdays case the delays ended up lasting all night which not only meant that i was delayed getting home it also meant that i couldn't go out in the evening by train at around 8/9pm. What annoyed me even more is the inconsistent information being given at around 8-9pm as to when the next train from hither green to london was on the south eastern trains app and the departure boards. The staff at hither green station had basically shut the shutters on the information desk and werent taking queries from anyone meaning that people had no idea if or when the next train was going to come and where it would be stopping at. There was no fatality just one very stupid individual. This should have been dealt with more efficiently and if southeastern trains claim money for this then im claiming it back from them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
good to see se trains encouraging people to claim
http://www.southeasternrailway.co.u...cident-impacts-service-thursday-11-september/

 

[SephenWorceste]

I would claim in these types of situations. If a person is killed on the track then it is not their family who pay and it is not taken from the drivers salary. The train company pays. They understood the cost and risks of Delay Repay when they took on the franchise. Profit without risk has not worked well for our society.

Delay Repay to me is similar to the strict liability requirement to have a ticket. Surely it should work both ways. I have to buy a ticket and the train company has to provide the advertised service. No excuses for either party.

Airlines have a fault based compensation scheme. The amounts paid can see totally extortionate compared to the cost of some tickets and of course the airlines are very reluctant to pay it.

Delay Repay is simple, proportionate to the amount paid and not ruinous to the train companies. It seems fare to everybody. In my view the biggest improvement in the railways I use in many years.




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[Tetchytyke]

You are oversimplifying these issues.

Did you not read what 455driver said?

I don't think I am simplifying the issues, and I did read what he said. The TSSA reckon the TOCs make £150m a year profit from delays. There are costs that the TSSA haven't taken into account, but the costs of repairing the train and supporting the driver through a traumatic event aren't that high. It's thoroughly distressing and unpleasant work, but it isn't expensive work.

The TOCs are happy to take Network Rail's money, and they take more of it than passengers do.

No one is going to stop you claiming. Other people feel uncomfortable about it.

At the moment they're not, but other posters on here have suggested cutting compensation back to things "within the railway's control". I'm sure ATOC are listening and would be delighted to see the public support such a move.

 

[dcsprior]

I think I'd also claim. The main reasons are:

• As others have stated, the train company will get this money from NR, so it seems only right that they pass it on to their customers
• I would claim if I happened not to know the cause of the delay
• One of the reasons I choose rail over air is that rail is very good about compensating passengers for delay - whatever the cause

 

[455driver]

this is interesting. In London at least once each month someone ends up under the train however london underground seem to be more effective at resuming a normal service.

Thats because the lower speeds mean the body will stay pretty much in one piece unlike on the mainline where they can explode or be scattered over a few hundred yards if they go underneath the train and get ripped apart!

You are not comparing the same thing!

 

[Bushy]

The other consideration in this discussion is that the passenger gets nothing for a 29 minute delay regardless of the cause so in my view passengers should claim what they are entitled to. Its all part of the Contract that the TOC has with DfT.

As a season ticket holder, I prefer Delay Repay to passenger charter discounts. In the last years of Passenger Charter on South Eastern, they always seemed to just meet the Passenger Charter standard and with the effect of High Speed on their statistics we would not have a chance of getting discounts now.

Regards

Bushy

 

[hassaanhc]

this is interesting. In London at least once each month someone ends up under the train however london underground seem to be more effective at resuming a normal service. In Thursdays case the delays ended up lasting all night which not only meant that i was delayed getting home it also meant that i couldn't go out in the evening by train at around 8/9pm. What annoyed me even more is the inconsistent information being given at around 8-9pm as to when the next train from hither green to london was on the south eastern trains app and the departure boards. The staff at hither green station had basically shut the shutters on the information desk and werent taking queries from anyone meaning that people had no idea if or when the next train was going to come and where it would be stopping at. There was no fatality just one very stupid individual. This should have been dealt with more efficiently and if southeastern trains claim money for this then im claiming it back from them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
good to see se trains encouraging people to claim
http://www.southeasternrailway.co.u...cident-impacts-service-thursday-11-september/

Thats because the lower speeds mean the body will stay pretty much in one piece unlike on the mainline where they can explode or be scattered over a few hundred yards if they go underneath the train and get ripped apart!

You are not comparing the same thing!

Think he was comparing the length of time things take to get back to normal and the level of service information given. However, the "not comparing the same thing" point still applies!

• Each Underground line, with the exception of the District Line currently undergoing introduction of new trains, have all their stock the same length and of the same type. This makes it easier for them to go anywhere during disruption. With Southeastern, you've got train type and length to worry about too.
• Most Underground lines have drivers learn the whole line. Whereas with Southeastern you might find the drivers available don't know a particular line. The 375 stock also requires guards, which aren't used on the local stopping services, therefore will be another issue if through bad luck you end up with all 375 in Charing Cross! And this also affects traincrew legal working hours.
• There is also no interworking between completely different lines in many cases on the Underground. If something happens on the Northern Line then the same issue shouldn't go and affect say the Piccadilly Line. On the other hand, South West Trains have diagrams where a train does most of the suburban area branches through the day, affecting more than one route.
• Then you've got to work out how many more miles a train can do before it needs to go for a check. With the Underground the distances involved are shorter.
• Control on both the Underground and the mainline can give overly-optimistic or completely wrong information, or no information at all. The staff on the ground can't give any information on service running if they're not getting it!

I've probably missed out loads of stuff, but I hope I've given an idea of the difficulties involved.

The best way of getting things back to normal is by either:
Terminating trains short of their destination so they can pick up their next working on time.
Or miss out stops which will gain time and improve the chances of the next working starting on time.
Neither of which are liked by passengers, but it needs to be done!

Below is an example of how effective the second option is. The train was 20 minutes late at Isleworth, and was run fast to Waterloo. That normally is a journey time of 37 minutes but after running fast it took just 22 minutes, and went from 20 late to 5 late. Scheduled arrival time at Waterloo was 1811, and next trip out left 1822. Had it still been stopping everywhere, it would have arrived around 1832 and 10 minutes after it should have departed, and still left again at least 15-20 minutes late. But running fast meant it arrived at 1816 and in time to start the 1822 on time.

 

[DarloRich]

And some people think its great that they can get a few quid back no matter the cause, they dont care about the poor bugger* whose head has gone through the front of the train or the poor bugger* who was driving the train at the time as long as they can get their money back and have a free ride.

* there are many other poor buggers involved in these incidents but you get the idea.

I will always claim if my train is late, even if the reason is a suicide. That doesn’t make me a bad person and that doesn’t stop me feeling complete sympathy for all of those involved. Now if there was an option to donate the value of the compensation vouchers to the Samaritans (or any other charity) that is something I would be happy to consider.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

this is interesting. In London at least once each month someone ends up under the train however london underground seem to be more effective at resuming a normal service.

Hmmmmmmmm - how to answer this in a polite and non graphic manner..........

 

[SephenWorceste]

> And some people think its great that they can get a few quid back no matter the cause, they dont care about the poor bugger* whose head has gone through the front of the train or the poor bugger* who was driving the train at the time as long as they can get their money back and have a free ride.

How do you know that?


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[maniacmartin]

I would always claim. It's highly unlikely that the family of the deceased, the driver or anyone directly involved with the incident will be the ones processing the Delay Repay.

It's just a cost to doing business in any industry that if you don't deliver the service you promise, you have to compensate your customers accordingly, even if it wasn't your fault.

 

[455driver]

I will always claim if my train is late, even if the reason is a suicide. That doesn’t make me a bad person and that doesn’t stop me feeling complete sympathy for all of those involved. Now if there was an option to donate the value of the compensation vouchers to the Samaritans (or any other charity) that is something I would be happy to consider.

Its easy, when you use the vouchers you donate the same amount using the Samaritans website-

http://www.samaritans.org/support-us/donate-online/make-single-donation

 

[dcsprior]

It's just a cost to doing business in any industry that if you don't deliver the service you promise, you have to compensate your customers accordingly, even if it wasn't your fault.

To be fair, the rail industry is a lot more generous with delay compensation than bus, coach or air.