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Decline in UK bus services

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What action would you have the Traffic Commissioner take?

Revoke the licence = no operator going forward as who would come forward to operate the service,

Curtail the licence = services would be cut.

Suspend the licence = no services operating.

They can fine the operator for non performance of scheduled services but that does not solve the problem if anything it could push a smaller operator under and then we get back to no operator.

The "elephant in the room" is quite frankly that a very large % of services especially the so called lifeline services need a very significant level of financial support. The problem then becomes (a) who has the money to support the service (b) does it represent good value for money? Is the real problem the cost of the driver?

The reality going on from that is very often it does not represent good value for money with a large sum of money providing a service for comparatively few people. It sounds very harsh indeed but like post offices, banks, small shops and now railway ticket offices time has moved on and for a very large % of the population the services that used to be available are no longer needed.

Given the success of technology for example Uber one has to wonder if the power of "tinternet" has to be harnessed in small towns to really promote car sharing and other cooperative ventures. I never cease to be amazed how even between small villages and towns the sheer volume of traffic that goes between the two and the number of "empty seats" that are waiting to be sat in if only we could reset our minds.
The vast majority of services in the UK are not provided by small operators.

What is the point of powers you won't use? Heads the bus companies win, tails the bus companies win.

The bus companies have the commissioners in their back pocket, enabling them. Cowboys basically. All on the back of an entirely untrue drivers shortage, gets repeated on here all the time.

The last time I went out for a late ish bus it was a summer day, still light. The 9pm bus didn't turn up.

There were kids at the bus stop, imagining they would be able to get home on the bus using the ticket they had bought earlier.

The distance involved meant walking was not an option, especially for the older people.I know that the next 4 buses didn't turn up, they had run the last bus at 8 30 pm. The last bus was meant to be 11pm.

Anyone really think this is acceptable? On a regular basis?

What's the point of the traffic commissioners where the regulations don't apply?
 
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Mwanesh

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I certainly would no longer rely on my last bus as I have little faith in them choosing to run it. They cut our evening services in half to " Improve reliability" and they became even more unreliable. You pay for a day ticket and only get one journey out of it, no point in complaining as they just ignore you. Then they wonder why people won't use them.

Back when I worked for them, not running the last service was unknown, once it got to 5pm the supervisor knew if he was short and would deal with it accordingly, now they just shrug and blame the ( untrue) driver shortages.

And the toothless tiger know as the traffic commissioner let's them get away with it.

What is the point now of the traffic commissioner?
These days you will find most companies have agency drivers. It was unheard of years ago in the bus industry. Go on the bus driver agencies and look at the vacancies available country wide.
 

Titfield

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The vast majority of services in the UK are not provided by small operators.

What is the point of powers you won't use? Heads the bus companies win, tails the bus companies win.

The bus companies have the commissioners in their back pocket, enabling them. Cowboys basically. All on the back of an entirely untrue drivers shortage, gets repeated on here all the time.

The last time I went out for a late ish bus it was a summer day, still light. The 9pm bus didn't turn up.

There were kids at the bus stop, imagining they would be able to get home on the bus using the ticket they had bought earlier.

The distance involved meant walking was not an option, especially for the older people.I know that the next 4 buses didn't turn up, they had run the last bus at 8 30 pm. The last bus was meant to be 11pm.

Anyone really think this is acceptable? On a regular basis?

What's the point of the traffic commissioners where the regulations don't apply?

I ask again what action would you have the Traffic Commissioner take in the example you give of the 9pm bus not turning up?

Did you write to the TC and advise them of this failing?
 
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I ask again what action would you have the Traffic Commissioner take in the example you give of the 9pm bus not turning up?

Did you write to the TC and advise them of this failing?
No, but I know loads of people who have. To no avail, pointless.

I expect the traffic commissioner to enforce the laws they are employed to use.
 

duncombec

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3 Sep 2014
Messages
1,151
Did you write to the TC and advise them of this failing?
No, but I know loads of people who have. To no avail, pointless.
Strictly speaking, you cannot write to the Traffic Commissioner in relation to non-operation of services.

The government page, https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/traffic-commissioners/about/complaints-procedure, says
You should contact one of the following organisations to report a bus service that is not running to the Senior Traffic Commissioner’s punctuality and reliability standards:

DVSA is naturally only for vehicle faults, not punctuality and operation, which leaves Bus Users UK. They can only help if you have previously written to the operator, and have a total of 8 ADR officials (explained on another page as Alternative Resolution) to assist your complaint... note their ideal is to resolve the issue between the parties, not push it straight to the Traffic Commissioners.
 

markymark2000

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What action would you have the Traffic Commissioner take?

Revoke the licence = no operator going forward as who would come forward to operate the service,

Curtail the licence = services would be cut.

Suspend the licence = no services operating.

They can fine the operator for non performance of scheduled services but that does not solve the problem if anything it could push a smaller operator under and then we get back to no operator.

The "elephant in the room" is quite frankly that a very large % of services especially the so called lifeline services need a very significant level of financial support. The problem then becomes (a) who has the money to support the service (b) does it represent good value for money? Is the real problem the cost of the driver?

The reality going on from that is very often it does not represent good value for money with a large sum of money providing a service for comparatively few people. It sounds very harsh indeed but like post offices, banks, small shops and now railway ticket offices time has moved on and for a very large % of the population the services that used to be available are no longer needed.
Cancellations can happen for a variety of reasons and I think that it is fair to say that you will never eradicated all cancellations. What the traffic commissioner should be doing though is fining operators who are blatantly not complying with punctuality. One or two cancellations don't hinder the figures that much anyway and so the main issue is very regular cancellations. Where operators are severely struggling, they should be introducing temporary timetables to so that services can run more reliably.

If there are 700 cancellations per week by one operator (Stagecoach South Wales in December/January), are you saying that is acceptable? Even now when they have a shortage of drivers, they have just set up a Rail Replacement division as they want to capitalise on the valleys rail replacement work. Taking drivers off normal work to instead do rail replacement but the timetables haven't changed so journeys are just being cancelled. Journeys which could otherwise have ran as normal just by using the drivers who are instead on rail.
Or was it okay for Stagecoach to take hundreds of drivers from around the country to do the Commonwealth Games which meant that these areas had a stupidly high amount of cancellations all because as a group, they decided that the corporate contract was more important to fulfil than the registered local bus services.

One or two cancellations are just something which happens. 700 in a week though (and I think some areas were hitting that during the Commonwealth Games) is not acceptable and they should be punished for this!

On the whole, I think that the smaller companies are dealing with this better and things are probably about as bad for them now as they were pre Covid (Smaller firms always find it harder to cover work as they have a lot less staff in their 'pool' to call upon). It's the big firms now who are the worst for it because they know that they can get away with it as the Traffic Commissioner won't touch them.


No, but I know loads of people who have. To no avail, pointless.

I expect the traffic commissioner to enforce the laws they are employed to use.
I know that I have emailed the Traffic Commissioner (and more recently tried the DVSA) regarding a number of issues including large scale driving hours infringements to buses not turning up a number of times over the past 10 years about issues and I have never once had anything back from them and nor do they seem to do anything about it. To such an extent that I would believe your comments about certain operators being in the TCs pockets. It's clear to see by who is being targeted for any public inquiries and what punishments they get. Funny how of all the companies who have refused to introduce bus tracking over the past 2 years and yet Thandi Red are the first company to get fined. Couldn't possibly happen to many other firms as the TC is firmly in bed with most firms. If they don't like the company though, they will stop at nothing to ensure that the company gets shut down somehow. Somehow an operator running buses with no MOT gets a slap on the wrist and a licence reduction to a number which is still much higher than the amount of buses they own, let alone operate daily. If that was one of the firms which the TC didn't like, they would take the licence off them. Or perhaps Stagecoach Devon where they got the small fine. Gave passengers one weekend of free travel in a very small geographical area. Whoopie, doopie, doo. Months, possibly 2 years of suffering and you get to save £4 on your bus fare on that one day.


DVSA is naturally only for vehicle faults, not punctuality and operation, which leaves Bus Users UK. They can only help if you have previously written to the operator, and have a total of 8 ADR officials (explained on another page as Alternative Resolution) to assist your complaint... note their ideal is to resolve the issue between the parties, not push it straight to the Traffic Commissioners.
BusUsers are extremely swayed by the operators though because it's the operators who fund them. Why are they going to go to the traffic commissioners against operators who pay them a lot of money. The bosses of BusUsers know what is going on, they just refuse to act on it.
 

Lewisham2221

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All on the back of an entirely untrue drivers shortage, gets repeated on here all the time.
Entirely untrue? Every bus operator in my local area is actively advertising for drivers. Even the really small ones. The smaller operators manage to cover everything, mainly through more goodwill and office staff covering work. The bigger ops are already heavily reliant on overtime and casual drivers to cover the work, if drivers go sick on the day, there's a good chance the bus is getting parked up.

The last time I went out for a late ish bus it was a summer day, still light. The 9pm bus didn't turn up.

There were kids at the bus stop, imagining they would be able to get home on the bus using the ticket they had bought earlier.

The distance involved meant walking was not an option, especially for the older people.I know that the next 4 buses didn't turn up, they had run the last bus at 8 30 pm. The last bus was meant to be 11pm.

Anyone really think this is acceptable? On a regular basis?
That's certainly not acceptable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

These days you will find most companies have agency drivers. It was unheard of years ago in the bus industry. Go on the bus driver agencies and look at the vacancies available country wide.
I beg to differ. Perhaps some of the bigger operators in the largest cities, but certainly not even getting close to "most" companies
 

duncombec

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1,151
BusUsers are extremely swayed by the operators though because it's the operators who fund them. Why are they going to go to the traffic commissioners against operators who pay them a lot of money. The bosses of BusUsers know what is going on, they just refuse to act on it.
I'm cautious of replying to this because I am aware it might be heading off topic for this particular thread, so I crave the moderators' indulgence to respond to this. I hasten to add I have no connection with any organisation, and I haven't looked into funding, but the below are the figures from the 2022/23 annual report (https://bususers.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Bus-Users-UK-Annual-ADR-Report-2022-23.xlsx):

UK
Year2022/23
Number of enquiries (Domestic)
530​
Number of enquiries (Cross Border)
0​
Number of Disputes (Domestic)
2884​
Number of Disputes (Cross Border)
21​
Number of Disputes Accepted (Domestic)
1283​
Number of Disputes Accepted (Cross Border)
15​
Total Number of disputes rejected
564​
Total - 1240 First Line complaints.
Top 4 reasons why not escalated to stage 2:Totals
1​
Complainant had not contacted operator93%
524​
2​
Complaint concerned a commercial matter5%
28​
3​
Complaint was from other road user/pedestrian2%
12​
Number of complaints for operational reasons
0​
Average time taken to resolve dispute from receipt of case
45​
Days
Average time taken to resolve dispute from complaint complete
20​
Days
Rate of compliance, if known, with outcomesNo%
Case Closed No Response -Passenger
362​
32%​
Case Resolved in Passengers Favour
519​
47%​
Case resolved in Operators Favour
44​
4%​
Complaints still open
172​
15%​
Other
23​
2%​
Totals
1120​
100%​
General Information
No of BAB Cases
1​
No of EPRR Cases
0​
ADR Complaints
1283​
First Line Complaints
1582​
Enquiries
530​

Of complaints made, a sizeable proportion were rejected because the complainant hadn't followed procedure of contacting the operator first. A further selection were closed because the passenger made no further response. However, nearly half of complaints were resolved in the passenger's favour. The numbers don't always match perfectly, as it seems a single complaint can cover multiple "codes" (what's wrong) or operators. The biggest single cause of complaint was driver or staff attitude - how can that be handled by the traffic commissioner? Service reliability and Bus failing to show (which could arguably be lumped together) are second and third, respectively.

39% of complaints were made against independents, 35% against Stagecoach, 16% against NatEx group, 7% against Arriva, and 3% against First.

Whilst there are no specific figures for how many cases were further referred to the Traffic Commissioners (unless that's "other"), it is hard to balance these figures with your assertion that Bus Users UK is "extremely swayed" by the operators when they only find in the operator's case in 4% of cases (and 11% of completed cases).
 

markymark2000

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Of complaints made, a sizeable proportion were rejected because the complainant hadn't followed procedure of contacting the operator first. A further selection were closed because the passenger made no further response. However, nearly half of complaints were resolved in the passenger's favour. The numbers don't always match perfectly, as it seems a single complaint can cover multiple "codes" (what's wrong) or operators. The biggest single cause of complaint was driver or staff attitude - how can that be handled by the traffic commissioner? Service reliability and Bus failing to show (which could arguably be lumped together) are second and third, respectively.
Just because it's 'in the passengers favour', have you thought about what that may mean? Generally big operators throw out a free ticket if you go through BusUsers as it saves things escalating. If you accept the bus ticket, things go no further. I complained about Arriva knowingly displaying the wrong route information on their website and their failure to display any diversion notices for the Wales depots (Even when that included the busiest route in the area losing it's service for half of the day due to a stupid race). They offered me a weekly ticket for my troubles. Even now, the issue isn't resolved but it was marked as resolved as Arriva offered me a free ticket and BusUsers refused to go back to Arriva to get a commitment to start updating information. Giving me a weekly ticket was not justice for the lazyiness of Arriva Wales management refusing to keep basic route information updated and start posting diversion notices for Wales where it would cause significant disruption to services. This complaint was in 2020. The issues are still ongoing. BusUsers do nothing more than pay lip service and operators know if they just throw about a bit of free travel, people will accept it and all of the complaints get closed easily. Just because it says 'in passengers favour', doesn't mean that anything meaningful was done, just that the passenger was paid off to shut up.

Whilst there are no specific figures for how many cases were further referred to the Traffic Commissioners (unless that's "other"), it is hard to balance these figures with your assertion that Bus Users UK is "extremely swayed" by the operators when they only find in the operator's case in 4% of cases (and 11% of completed cases).
They are swayed away from reporting issues to the traffic commissioner and towards having an easy life.
 

M803UYA

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Under my stone....
Just because it's 'in the passengers favour', have you thought about what that may mean? Generally big operators throw out a free ticket if you go through BusUsers as it saves things escalating. If you accept the bus ticket, things go no further. I complained about Arriva knowingly displaying the wrong route information on their website and their failure to display any diversion notices for the Wales depots (Even when that included the busiest route in the area losing it's service for half of the day due to a stupid race). They offered me a weekly ticket for my troubles. Even now, the issue isn't resolved but it was marked as resolved as Arriva offered me a free ticket and BusUsers refused to go back to Arriva to get a commitment to start updating information. Giving me a weekly ticket was not justice for the lazyiness of Arriva Wales management refusing to keep basic route information updated and start posting diversion notices for Wales where it would cause significant disruption to services. This complaint was in 2020. The issues are still ongoing. BusUsers do nothing more than pay lip service and operators know if they just throw about a bit of free travel, people will accept it and all of the complaints get closed easily. Just because it says 'in passengers favour', doesn't mean that anything meaningful was done, just that the passenger was paid off to shut up.


They are swayed away from reporting issues to the traffic commissioner and towards having an easy life.
Bus Appeals Body rulings aren't binding - but voluntary. I'll leave you to work out how much teeth that organisation has. Whereas the traffic commissioner and DVSA act on specific intelligence and have some teeth. If there is a regular stream of reports to DVSA regarding non compliant operation of an operator's services, they will have a hearing in chambers, followed by a public inquiry. This does require a lot of throwing of mud to make it stick.... I can see why people give up!
 
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Entirely untrue? Every bus operator in my local area is actively advertising for drivers.
There is no shortage of qualified PCV drivers in the UK.

The companies know this, the traffic commissioner knows this.

The shortage is on well run companies who can manage these 3 things.

1. A decent return in money for the exchange in working for them.

2. Treat their drivers with a bit of respect.

3. Shifts that wouldn't turn a robot into a Marxist.

As Meatloaf said 2 out of 3 ain't bad, but generally they cant even manage that. Or even 1.

Nothing wrong with losing mileage due to circumstances beyond your control, but they are short of drivers ENTIRELY due to the way they choose to run their business.

Out of around 40 PCV holders I am in contact with via social media, only one remains bus driving.
 

Ken H

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That's how the commercial market works, yes. Same with any business.
Until deregulation, bus companies like Ribble and West Yorkshire ran a network of services. I think they took the hit of some of the thin workings from the profits of the busy services. But they did go to councils with a begging bowl for some services.
Of course, they had economies of scale of running an operation with more buses/staff. If you have a garage operating some profitable busy services and also some poorer performing services, then they can share costs between the profitable and non profitable operations. (or maybe hide costs of unprofitable services in the costs of the profitable ones!

That seems to have changed - now the bus companies look at each route, or even each working, and decide if its profitable. Maybe a change of management style, maybe better data by analysing waybills/ticket machine data to better identify the revenue.
 
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Delenn

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or even each working
And that is the one thing I wish I could get over to these companies. Removing journeys because they don't make enough will make people who would use other journeys as well make other choices. Just because a journey makes a loss does not mean it is not important for the whole service and does not mean it can be cut without consequences.

As an example, in Essex, the 71 (Chelmsford to Colchester) at 1825 used to have 20 people on it. They cut it (as there was one at 1755 and one at 1845). As I was a regular, I knew most of them. 8 of those 20 disappeared from bus usage, not using either of the other 2 options. I saw 2 of them over time in Chelmsford, and it was the last straw for them, and they found another way.

This is how death spirals happen. When reviewing a service, the service as a whole needs to be reviewed.
 

RT4038

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Until deregulation, bus companies like Ribble and West Yorkshire ran a network of services. I think they took the hit of some of the thin workings from the profits of the busy services. But they did go to councils with a begging bowl for some services.
Of course, they had economies of scale of running an operation with more buses/staff. If you have a garage operating some profitable busy services and also some poorer performing services, then they can share costs between the profitable and non profitable operations. (or maybe hide costs of unprofitable services in the costs of the profitable ones!

That seems to have changed - now the bus companies look at each route, or even each working, and decide if its profitable. Maybe a change of management style, maybe better data by analysing waybills/ticket machine data to better identify the revenue.
The basic tenet of the regulated period (1930-1986) was that, in exchange for a monopoly and control over routes timetables and fares, bus companies would cross subsidise the loss making services from the profitable. This worked reasonably well into the 1960s but then shrinking demand and inflexible control, coupled with rising costs made the bus companies unprofitable. Initially this manifested itself in insufficient re-investment money being available, and a headlong conversion to one-man buses, but around 1970 most companies plunged into losses. The more rural ones such as Western National were already there, and the more northern urban such as Northern General took a few more years.
The privately owned BET group saw this coming and sold their bus companies (such as Ribble) to the state, and were put under the same management as those already nationalised, such as West Yorkshire; in a company known as the National Bus Company (NBC). London Transport was also split up and the seriously loss making country services were hived off to the NBC. The NBC was in a dire financial state, and in 1971 started sending letters of demand, with menaces, to Local Authorities.
At that time, Local Authorities had no clear legal mandate to subsidise bus services (other than own municipal operations), and anyway they largely saw this as a Central Government owned company trying to push losses onto Local Government, without the funding (aside from Rate rises) to go with it. [sounds familiar]. Some quite wide areas lost their 'company' buses completely - parts of East Cornwall, West Wales, Suffolk etc. Some Local Authorities paid up. The following year, legislation was introduced giving the clear legal mandate, and the NBC started negotiating with Local Authorities. Those of us who were around then will remember the cut after cut every year, the constant timetable changes and the ongoing march to full one man operation over the next 10 years, as companies grappled with reducing demand and (in some areas) Local Authorities wishing to reduce their commitments.

In 1974 the NBC introduced their costing model, which is the root of most large company's models today. Prior to that, profitability or otherwise of individual routes was little understood.

Now, at the time there was a growing disquiet about the monopoly, and especially the distortions caused by the cross subsidy - the belief that the good routes had relatively poor services and fares were higher than they should be relative to the demand, to pay for the rural and affluent areas receiving more service and cheaper fares than was justified by their use. Compounded by the unreliable services that the big bus companies ran in some areas, and the quantity of subsidy being siphoned off into better terms and conditions for the staff. There was no doubt some truth in all of this.

The result was the controversial policy of deregulation, which sort of solved some of the issues whilst bringing a load more, as the market didn't quite work as expected (and in hindsight was pretty obvious). Now bus companies couldn't so easily milk the best routes, because if they did then a competitor would come in and undercut. This reduced the opportunity to cross subsidise, but anyway why would a company want to cross subsidise when they can pay out the profits of the good routes as dividends. (Yes, they may, and do, even now cross subsidise some weaker services in order to keep a coherent network and discourage a competitor from establishing themselves, but nothing like the practices in the regulated era).

And that is the one thing I wish I could get over to these companies. Removing journeys because they don't make enough will make people who would use other journeys as well make other choices. Just because a journey makes a loss does not mean it is not important for the whole service and does not mean it can be cut without consequences.

As an example, in Essex, the 71 (Chelmsford to Colchester) at 1825 used to have 20 people on it. They cut it (as there was one at 1755 and one at 1845). As I was a regular, I knew most of them. 8 of those 20 disappeared from bus usage, not using either of the other 2 options. I saw 2 of them over time in Chelmsford, and it was the last straw for them, and they found another way.

This is how death spirals happen. When reviewing a service, the service as a whole needs to be reviewed.
That is all well understood, but if money in is being exceeded by money out, the bus company has got to reduce its costs quickly, or put the fares up, or both. Just like the railway industry is going through at the moment (on other threads in this forum) every service cut and fares rise is wrong and every way to improve revenue relies on faith and taking a long time to build up (and often copious quantities of upfront expenditure). If you're staring bankruptcy in the face you have to do things that are not ideal.
 
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Ken H

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N Yorks
The basic tenet of the regulated period (1930-1986) was that, in exchange for a monopoly and control over routes timetables and fares, bus companies would cross subsidise the loss making services from the profitable. This worked reasonably well into the 1960s but then shrinking demand and inflexible control, coupled with rising costs made the bus companies unprofitable. Initially this manifested itself in insufficient re-investment money being available, and a headlong conversion to one-man buses, but around 1970 most companies plunged into losses. The more rural ones such as Western National were already there, and the more northern urban such as Northern General took a few more years.
The privately owned BET group saw this coming and sold their bus companies (such as Ribble) to the state, and were put under the same management as those already nationalised, such as West Yorkshire; in a company known as the National Bus Company (NBC). London Transport was also split up and the seriously loss making country services were hived off to the NBC. The NBC was in a dire financial state, and in 1971 started sending letters of demand, with menaces, to Local Authorities.
At that time, Local Authorities had no clear legal mandate to subsidise bus services (other than own municipal operations), and anyway they largely saw this as a Central Government owned company trying to push losses onto Local Government, without the funding (aside from Rate rises) to go with it. [sounds familiar]. Some quite wide areas lost their 'company' buses completely - parts of East Cornwall, West Wales, Suffolk etc. Some Local Authorities paid up. The following year, legislation was introduced giving the clear legal mandate, and the NBC started negotiating with Local Authorities. Those of us who were around then will remember the cut after cut every year, the constant timetable changes and the ongoing march to full one man operation over the next 10 years, as companies grappled with reducing demand and (in some areas) Local Authorities wishing to reduce their commitments.

In 1974 the NBC introduced their costing model, which is the root of most large company's models today. Prior to that, profitability or otherwise of individual routes was little understood.

Now, at the time there was a growing disquiet about the monopoly, and especially the distortions caused by the cross subsidy - the belief that the good routes had relatively poor services and fares were higher than they should be relative to the demand, to pay for the rural and affluent areas receiving more service and cheaper fares than was justified by their use. Compounded by the unreliable services that the big bus companies ran in some areas, and the quantity of subsidy being siphoned off into better terms and conditions for the staff. There was no doubt some truth in all of this.

The result was the controversial policy of deregulation, which sort of solved some of the issues whilst bringing a load more, as the market didn't quite work as expected (and in hindsight was pretty obvious). Now bus companies couldn't so easily milk the best routes, because if they did then a competitor would come in and undercut. This reduced the opportunity to cross subsidise, but anyway why would a company want to cross subsidise when they can pay out the profits of the good routes as dividends. (Yes, they may, and do, cross subsidise some weaker services in order to keep a coherent network and discourage a competitor from establishing themselves, but nothing like what was done in the regulated era).


That is all well understood, but if money in is being exceeded by money out, the bus company has got to reduce its costs quickly, or put the fares up, or both. Just like the railway industry is going through at the moment (on other threads in this forum) every service cut and fares rise is wrong and every way to improve revenue relies on faith and taking a long time to build up (and often copious quantities of upfront expenditure). If you're staring bankruptcy in the face you have to do things that are not ideal.
Add into that the increasing costs of staffing buses. I know the Leeds municipal was seeing mounting losses in the 50's and 60's largely as the result of wage increases.
The economics of one man operation (as it was called then) was called into question. It slowed the buses down as people paid their fares, sometime to the extent of needing an extra bus and driver on a route.
Leeds brought in saver strips which were 10 journey tickets for the cost of 9 journeys. The passenger put his ticket in a cancelling machine which would cancel one journey by choppng off part of the ticket, and printing stage and date information. Holders of these tickets would bypass the driver shortening queues to get on.
Pic of saver strips
10678836_730402337048050_7703182046790828118_n.jpg
 

Mwanesh

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14 May 2016
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948
Cancellations can happen for a variety of reasons and I think that it is fair to say that you will never eradicated all cancellations. What the traffic commissioner should be doing though is fining operators who are blatantly not complying with punctuality. One or two cancellations don't hinder the figures that much anyway and so the main issue is very regular cancellations. Where operators are severely struggling, they should be introducing temporary timetables to so that services can run more reliably.

If there are 700 cancellations per week by one operator (Stagecoach South Wales in December/January), are you saying that is acceptable? Even now when they have a shortage of drivers, they have just set up a Rail Replacement division as they want to capitalise on the valleys rail replacement work. Taking drivers off normal work to instead do rail replacement but the timetables haven't changed so journeys are just being cancelled. Journeys which could otherwise have ran as normal just by using the drivers who are instead on rail.
Or was it okay for Stagecoach to take hundreds of drivers from around the country to do the Commonwealth Games which meant that these areas had a stupidly high amount of cancellations all because as a group, they decided that the corporate contract was more important to fulfil than the registered local bus services.

One or two cancellations are just something which happens. 700 in a week though (and I think some areas were hitting that during the Commonwealth Games) is not acceptable and they should be punished for this!

On the whole, I think that the smaller companies are dealing with this better and things are probably about as bad for them now as they were pre Covid (Smaller firms always find it harder to cover work as they have a lot less staff in their 'pool' to call upon). It's the big firms now who are the worst for it because they know that they can get away with it as the Traffic Commissioner won't touch them.



I know that I have emailed the Traffic Commissioner (and more recently tried the DVSA) regarding a number of issues including large scale driving hours infringements to buses not turning up a number of times over the past 10 years about issues and I have never once had anything back from them and nor do they seem to do anything about it. To such an extent that I would believe your comments about certain operators being in the TCs pockets. It's clear to see by who is being targeted for any public inquiries and what punishments they get. Funny how of all the companies who have refused to introduce bus tracking over the past 2 years and yet Thandi Red are the first company to get fined. Couldn't possibly happen to many other firms as the TC is firmly in bed with most firms. If they don't like the company though, they will stop at nothing to ensure that the company gets shut down somehow. Somehow an operator running buses with no MOT gets a slap on the wrist and a licence reduction to a number which is still much higher than the amount of buses they own, let alone operate daily. If that was one of the firms which the TC didn't like, they would take the licence off them. Or perhaps Stagecoach Devon where they got the small fine. Gave passengers one weekend of free travel in a very small geographical area. Whoopie, doopie, doo. Months, possibly 2 years of suffering and you get to save £4 on your bus fare on that one day.



BusUsers are extremely swayed by the operators though because it's the operators who fund them. Why are they going to go to the traffic commissioners against operators who pay them a lot of money. The bosses of BusUsers know what is going on, they just refuse to act on it.
Stagecoach South Wales rail replacement is done by Megabus drivers as overtime. They can borrow drivers from Megabus Bristol if need be.
 

Deerfold

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Leeds brought in saver strips which were 10 journey tickets for the cost of 9 journeys. The passenger put his ticket in a cancelling machine which would cancel one journey by choppng off part of the ticket, and printing stage and date information. Holders of these tickets would bypass the driver shortening queues to get on.
Pic of saver strips
10678836_730402337048050_7703182046790828118_n.jpg
West Yorkshire brought them in - and, as your picture shows, they were 12 journeys for the price of ten (and then sometimes offers on top of that).
 

RT4038

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Add into that the increasing costs of staffing buses. I know the Leeds municipal was seeing mounting losses in the 50's and 60's largely as the result of wage increases.
The economics of one man operation (as it was called then) was called into question. It slowed the buses down as people paid their fares, sometime to the extent of needing an extra bus and driver on a route.
I suspect largely an extra bus and driver often wasn't provided (particularly in the background of crippling staffing shortages), but the frequency was reduced instead. Attempting to combat this was the provision of more powerful vehicles, with faster acceleration, gearchanges and top speeds, to try and mitigate the longer fare collection time, which just translated into a much less pleasant ride. Especially with the proliferation of parked vehicles and then later pedestrian refuges, roundabouts, speed tables et al. Aside from a few city operators, we are only just now really looking at tackling fare collection speed, and this is painfully slow due to the technology investment and incompatible system issues.

However, we are where we are, and we will just get it introduced in time for bus services in many areas becoming a pretty irrelevant niche product, if they survive at all.
 

Dr Day

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Outside certain elements within these forums (and I have only just realised there is a separate bus one!), the demand for transport (whether by bus, train or anything else) generally comes from a need to do something somewhere else. We need to get groceries, go to work/school, visit friends & family, attend hospital appointments etc. We generally chose the most convenient door-to-door means to do that, with price more likely a secondary factor.

I would surmise that whilst bus operators may not always have everything right, the core problem is more around an evolution in where we live, where/when we want to go/come back and what we want to do when we get there. Part of the complex answer may therefore still lie with the local authorities, but with their planning departments rather than their transport officers - taking an extreme view by making sure no new homes are built unless they are on existing public transport routes that actually serve where people actually want to go. That in itself isn't easy as different people want to go to different places at different times.

Mobile phone tracking data is available which does show where and when people actually do go, which I'm hoping the transport authorities are working with the bus operators to analyse to make services more aligned with demand, rather than purely rely on the operators to 'know their market'.
 

Lewisham2221

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Outside certain elements within these forums (and I have only just realised there is a separate bus one!), the demand for transport (whether by bus, train or anything else) generally comes from a need to do something somewhere else. We need to get groceries, go to work/school, visit friends & family, attend hospital appointments etc. We generally chose the most convenient door-to-door means to do that, with price more likely a secondary factor.

I would surmise that whilst bus operators may not always have everything right, the core problem is more around an evolution in where we live, where/when we want to go/come back and what we want to do when we get there. Part of the complex answer may therefore still lie with the local authorities, but with their planning departments rather than their transport officers - taking an extreme view by making sure no new homes are built unless they are on existing public transport routes that actually serve where people actually want to go. That in itself isn't easy as different people want to go to different places at different times.

Mobile phone tracking data is available which does show where and when people actually do go, which I'm hoping the transport authorities are working with the bus operators to analyse to make services more aligned with demand, rather than purely rely on the operators to 'know their market'.
Since the 1990s, most new build housing developments seem to be completely inaccessible by buses, being built either entirely as a network of cul-de-sacs; or with impossibly narrow roads and tight junctions, made worse by inadequate parking provision meaning people park on the narrow roads making them even narrower to navigate.
 

nw1

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The reality going on from that is very often it does not represent good value for money with a large sum of money providing a service for comparatively few people. It sounds very harsh indeed but like post offices, banks, small shops and now railway ticket offices time has moved on and for a very large % of the population the services that used to be available are no longer needed.
Are they "no longer needed" or is it just that politics has moved significantly rightwards in the past 10-15 years?

It does sometimes seem that, particularly post-Covid, we're being forced to accept "new norms" that might vary from inconvenient to downright difficult for some. What happens to the people who moved into an area precisely due to its bus service, which was good and carried on well into the evening 20 years ago, and now even early-evening services, which people might rely on for work, are being threatened? What happens to the people that need that post office or physical bank?

In the harsh, cost-cutting world of the 2020s it does seem that "social need" is a dirty phrase. Everything's about "value for money", which seems to me to be a decidedly one-sided way of looking at the world.
 
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Deerfold

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The reality going on from that is very often it does not represent good value for money with a large sum of money providing a service for comparatively few people. It sounds very harsh indeed but like post offices, banks, small shops and now railway ticket offices time has moved on and for a very large % of the population the services that used to be available are no longer needed.

Although I suspect a significant number of people in the 25% of households without access to a car will need some sort of bus service.
 

slowroad

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Although I suspect a significant number of people in the 25% of households without access to a car will need some sort of bus service.
The vast majority of such households will still get access to public transport as they live in cities.
 

ChrisC

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Since the 1990s, most new build housing developments seem to be completely inaccessible by buses, being built either entirely as a network of cul-de-sacs; or with impossibly narrow roads and tight junctions, made worse by inadequate parking provision meaning people park on the narrow roads making them even narrower to navigate.
Large housing developments, which extend to houses in locations a considerable distance from the main road need to be served by regular buses. Many bus services in recent years have been diverted from main roads to run through quite small developments which may only be a few minutes walk away from the main road. Some bus routes running between major towns now turn off the main road numerous times to serve housing developments, industrial estates, retail parks and superstores. People no longer have to do a 5 minute walk to the bus stop on the main road but the bus comes to them. I understand the problem for elderly and less mobile people but have some become less mobile because they never walk anywhere like people used to do. The ENCTS pass has been fantastic for elderly people but some do very short journeys, which when I think back to my grandparents before free travel, they would walk.

Diverting bus services from the main road extends journey times for passengers travelling the whole route and makes the journey less attractive. At times of heavy traffic, especially when turning right, the bus has great difficulty betting back onto the main road. The local hourly bus service through the village where I live amazingly runs roughly to the same timetable as it did 50+ years ago, although now with no evening or Sunday service. Journey times into the city are now 7 minutes longer than they originally were as it diverts from the original route 3 times to serve a small housing estate, a superstore and part of a village it used to omit. All 3 diversions serve locations no more than 5 minutes walk from the original bus stops on the main road. The bus now only has a a very short turn round time at the end of the route and any late running on the inward journey results in delays to the return journey.
 

markymark2000

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And that is the one thing I wish I could get over to these companies. Removing journeys because they don't make enough will make people who would use other journeys as well make other choices. Just because a journey makes a loss does not mean it is not important for the whole service and does not mean it can be cut without consequences.
Another good example is companies cutting back evening journeys heading outbound (which often carry fair amounts of passengers) because the trip back towards the depot is dead or doesn't profit so they instead drop the whole round trip. I've seen this happen a good few times in my area. They forget about the 20-30 passengers who travel out of town on the bus. As you say, this has a bigger impact too as these people may then choose not to travel into town on the bus so they lose passengers there too. I think the issue is a lot of short sightedness from people who look solely at numbers on a screen and not enough at the larger picture.
I think theres a few examples that I can think of where bus companies have been daft and cut services without need. The X92 in Manchester being one example. Cut the evening return trips because some passengers wouldn't read the destination, they started to open emergency doors to get off at their intended stop rather than get off at the first actual stop. Rather than cutting it, they could have moved the bus to the stop behind like it was originally and there was no trouble. Instead the stop got moved so the X92 and ultra frequent 192 were together and it caused the issues. Easier to cut it than work out a solution to prevent people boarding the wrong bus. consequently people stopped using the bus as much because they were forced onto full and standing 192s which took significantly longer and were more uncomfortable. No one won, it was cut as a result of laziness and refusing to try and come up with a solution. Other express routes this happens too as well, many got slowed down with Covid as companies tried to get more areas served with less buses and now as the world has reopened, people don't want the longer journeys and so numbers are much lower than they were as bus passengers have not come back to the newer, slower network.

Stagecoach South Wales rail replacement is done by Megabus drivers as overtime. They can borrow drivers from Megabus Bristol if need be.
It's regular drivers, some are from Megabus Cwmbran, some aren't. It can't be overtime if it's the same staff doing it almost all days.


Since the 1990s, most new build housing developments seem to be completely inaccessible by buses, being built either entirely as a network of cul-de-sacs; or with impossibly narrow roads and tight junctions, made worse by inadequate parking provision meaning people park on the narrow roads making them even narrower to navigate.
The solution to it though is not to give more parking as more parking creates more cars. The same as more lanes and more capacity on the roads generates more car journeys. What is needed is for councils transport teams to speak up to get more funding for buses (whether that be routes, or infrastructure) via S106 developer funding. Planning departments need to get their act together as well and start demanding proper bus infrastructure and from earlier on in the developments. Other issues seem to be around 'adopted roads'. Where the council hasn't 'adopted' the roads, developers can and do make it difficult for buses to run onto the roads. I believe that one developer has stopped a local bus route in Chester from running into the development though it's an aim for this to change if/when the council adopt the road. Councils need to be far better at introducing/demanding bus gates and making buses use them. Sittingbourne for example has the disused bus gate to Great Easthall Estate because it was regularly abused by people who shouldn't have been using it. Rather than tackle the problem, Arriva cut the route and the council supported it on safety grounds. Again, an issue with adopted roads meaning the council can't make changes to the silly bus lane design (they could surely install bus lane cameras at one end of the road to enforce it). Between council planning and transport teams though, some developments can be served for a cost as little as a bus stop flag and timetable case. And yet no one will do it! Too many people with a lack of common sense within councils (whether that be within the teams, higher up management or councillors).
 

slowroad

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In rural towns the percentage is still 14%.

Even in the most isolated communities 5% don't.
These figures will include people who seldom or never leave the dwelling due to age or infirmity and people with disabilities for whom buses travel may in any case be totally unsuitable. Even for households without a car, private transport is the most used mode (as passengers in another household’s car).

In France people on low incomes in sparsely populated areas are given taxi vouchers. A much better solution where only a very limited and inflexible bus service could be offered.
 

geoffk

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This from Newton Abbot.


"People power has put paid to plans for a new bus and bike route in Newton Abbot. Opposition from residents has resulted in the plans for Ashburton Road being shelved. Teignbridge District Council said the bus “gate” would have improved bus services, reduced traffic congestion and supported environmentally sustainable travel choices. But some 80% of people responding to its consultation opposed the proposals to create a bus and cycle gate between Hunterswell Road and Bradley Lane. Common concerns raised in the month-long consultation held earlier this year included loss of resident parking; loss of trees and green space and safety issues. There would also be increased pollution and the possibility the new lane would have become a rat run."

I don't know the area but this kind of opposition is quite common. Use of this bus gate as a rat run could have been overcome by the use of rising bollards with transponders on the bus. Unfortunately the one example of these in Exeter hasn't been a success, with the bollards often failing to go down. Or you can have a kind of "tank trap" which buses can negotiate but cars cannot.
 
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The exile

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The vast majority of such households will still get access to public transport as they live in cities.
And at some point, the second-home owners will wonder why there’s no-one left to do their cleaning, gardening etc….
 

markymark2000

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I don't know the area but this kind of opposition is quite common. Use of this bus gate as a rat run could have been overcome by the use of rising bollards with transponders on the bus. Unfortunately the one example of these in Exeter hasn't been a success, with the bollards often failing to go down.
Any kind of physical barrier in the bus lane is not very good. While yes it may stop vehicles which aren't authorised to use the lane, it also slows down buses and emergency vehicles. Barriers of all kinds are prone to failure and that happens a lot. Chester had a bus lane rising bollard and it was hit a number of times by cars who were tailgating buses. About once per month it was hit and buses had to be diverted and miss out some of the key stops. Luckily that bollard was on the exit to a roundabout and so other buses could see what had happened and could instead take the next exit. This bus lane as it was proposed, buses wouldn't find out about any vehicle hitting the barrier until far too late because it's too far from the turning off the main road so would lead to buses trying to turn around in a residential street. The final issue with barrier/bollards in bus lanes is that it makes it very difficult to allocate buses or for loan buses as it's not generally a priority to install all buses with a reader for the bollards and so buses which are new to the depot tend to end up missing out streets which isn't very good.

The best kind of enforcement is a sump buster and a camera. Sump buster deters cars as drivers don't want to risk the damage. Camera then also fines anyone who gets over the sump buster.

I have always thought, to save on electricity, why has no one come up with a camera on a pressure pad. vehicles go over the pressure pad which then creates the link for the electricity to flow to the camera. Camera takes a quick photo of the vehicle being in the wrong place. Less costs
 
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