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December 2022 Timetable Changes

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Kite159

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Yes, that's right, departures were at 05-09-20-39-50 so pretty evenly spaced once again.

If they had to chop one, maybe they should have kept the xx39 rather than the xx09?

Or swap over the calls on the Weymouth trains so the XX:05 calls at Woking then fast to Winchester, with the XX:35 calling at Basingstoke after Clapham.

Although it won't really improve the spread as it will be XX:09; XX:20; XX:35
 
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Watershed

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Wouldn't 100% of the ticket revenue from a "Bedford - London" ticket will go straight to the DfT, under the brave new world where EMR & Thameslink are just paid a management fee to run the trains?
ORCATS is still used to distribute revenue - not all operators are franchised and not all franchised operators fall under the DfT.

In this particular instance - yes, the revenue ultimately makes its way to the DfT either way. But there are other flows (e.g. Cardiff to Swansea) where that's not the case. And the DfT is still interested in how revenue and costs are related at a given operator.

GTR now looks slightly less efficient as they have lost revenue but still have the same costs. In effect, the start of the EMR Connect services has weakened the case for continuing to run the current number of Thameslink services to Bedford.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Thats because they are carrying a lot more passengers south of Bedford that were ex GTR passengers On the EMR Connect services.
Which is why two of the Thameslink Bedford bound services should be curtailed to Luton. Would save two units and two lots of drivers for the day
 

JonathanH

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Which is why two of the Thameslink Bedford bound services should be curtailed to Luton.
Wouldn't you then have to curtail the service that currently terminates at Luton somewhere else, perhaps Kentish Town?

It is a bit ironic if improving services at Bedford, Luton and Luton Airport Parkway leads to worse services at Leagrave, Harlington and Flitwick. Kind of suggests the services should have been fast from Bedford to Luton in the first place, which wasn't what the railway chose to run.

Anyway, it isn't what is happening in December 2022.
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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Wouldn't you then have to curtail the service that currently terminates at Luton somewhere else, perhaps Kentish Town?
Yes probably but wouldn't take much work to get a platform face on the loop line that leads into the depot or maybe turnaround the Sutton services with a mixture of St Albans and Kentish Town terminators.
 

Bald Rick

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Wouldn't 100% of the ticket revenue from a "Bedford - London" ticket will go straight to the DfT, under the brave new world where EMR & Thameslink are just paid a management fee to run the trains?

In this particular instance - yes, the revenue ultimately makes its way to the DfT either way.


The revenue goes passenger > TOC > (DfT) > Treasury. DfT barely touch it.



Which is why two of the Thameslink Bedford bound services should be curtailed to Luton. Would save two units and two lots of drivers for the day

Sorry that’s nonsense. There is decent custom at Bedford, Leagrave and Flitwick all day, sufficient for 4tph. And operationally, several units and many more drivers swap over at Bedford through the day. It would actually cost more to do that at Luton.
 

London Trains

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Which is why two of the Thameslink Bedford bound services should be curtailed to Luton. Would save two units and two lots of drivers for the day

No definitely not, Leagrave and Flitwick at least definitely justify 4tph at the least, in an ideal world 6tph wouldn't be that over the top.

Harlington less so, but skipping one station on some trains is probably not worth it.
 

nw1

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Or swap over the calls on the Weymouth trains so the XX:05 calls at Woking then fast to Winchester, with the XX:35 calling at Basingstoke after Clapham.

Although it won't really improve the spread as it will be XX:09; XX:20; XX:35

True, that might work. To be fair 09-35 is a decent spread if you accept that half hourly is the best we can manage at the moment. Certainly much better than 05-20!

Actually maybe it's time for a speculative thread on "how to make the best of" the reduced timetables at the moment with an even-interval timetable rather than the "2019 timetable with holes" we have at the moment.
 

JonathanH

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To be fair 09-35 is a decent spread if you accept that half hourly is the best we can manage at the moment. Certainly much better than 05-20!
The longer journey time of the 09 means that the gap at Basingstoke is fairly negligible. Basingstoke is far enough out that having an 05-20 gap isn't a disaster. Passengers just know they have to arrive at Waterloo in the first part of the hour. I'm sure they can plan around that. There is also still a 42 slow if they don't want to wait (although I recognise it arrives after the 05).
 

nw1

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The longer journey time of the 09 means that the gap at Basingstoke is fairly negligible. Basingstoke is far enough out that having an 05-20 gap isn't a disaster. Passengers just know they have to arrive at Waterloo in the first part of the hour. I'm sure they can plan around that. There is also still a 42 slow if they don't want to wait (although I recognise it arrives after the 05).
Is that the case though? I'd have said somewhere like Basingstoke, i.e. a large town within an hour from London, should expect a reasonably evenly-spaced (doesn't have to be exact clockface, but should be reasonable spacing) 2tph. At worst, two trains 20 mins apart, with the second train not caught up by the first.
 

Weekender

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I notice the mythical 2 trains per hour between Bristol and Gloucester is still missing from the new timetable. It would appear that GWR/dft are waiting for the Gloucester MP to lose his seat so the promise can be quietly dropped.
 

JonathanH

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I notice the mythical 2 trains per hour between Bristol and Gloucester is still missing from the new timetable. It would appear that GWR/dft are waiting for the Gloucester MP to lose his seat so the promise can be quietly dropped.
Until 769s are operating in the LTV area there isn't any rolling stock to increase services in the West. 769s aren't happening until driver training happens. Driver training isn't happening until the pay dispute ends. The pay dispute isn't going to end as there is no feasible compromise.
 

Watershed

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Until 769s are operating in the LTV area there isn't any rolling stock to increase services in the West. 769s aren't happening until driver training happens. Driver training isn't happening until the pay dispute ends. The pay dispute isn't going to end as there is no feasible compromise.
Why do you suggest that driver training is dependent on the pay dispute? There is still plenty of training happening at other TOCs that are in dispute.

I thought the sticking point was unit reliability and the fact that the cabs don't have air conditioning?
 

JonathanH

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Why do you suggest that driver training is dependent on the pay dispute? There is still plenty of training happening at other TOCs that are in dispute.
It has been suggested by other posters and elsewhere that that is the case.

e.g. from three weeks ago
driver training should have started a couple of weeks ago, but it's the wider IR issues around driver pay etc. which have got in the way.

It isn't apparent that driver training has started.
 
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Goldfish62

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Why do you suggest that driver training is dependent on the pay dispute? There is still plenty of training happening at other TOCs that are in dispute.

I thought the sticking point was unit reliability and the fact that the cabs don't have air conditioning?
Info from an insider indicates it's exactly that and any claim that it's been brought into the current completely separate dispute is total nonsense.
 

JonathanH

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Info from an insider indicates it's exactly that and any claim that it's been brought into the current completely separate dispute is total nonsense.
I don't think anyone thinks it is 'inside the pay dispute' but industrial action clearly gets in the way of finding time to train drivers on new traction when it disrupts the rosters of the people training and the drivers needing training.

There isn't much evidence of further training runs on the North Downs Line.
 

craigybagel

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Not saying this is the case here - but if drivers have withdrawn from RDW during this dispute, which is often the case, it becomes very difficult to carry out training, or indeed do anything beyond running the normal timetable (and often even that is impossible).
 

Watershed

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Not saying this is the case here - but if drivers have withdrawn from RDW during this dispute, which is often the case, it becomes very difficult to carry out training, or indeed do anything beyond running the normal timetable (and often even that is impossible).
That's much more along the lines of what I was expecting. I note that the withdrawal of RDW at some TOCs has excluded training.
 

Starmill

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Arguably the additional service to Gloucester is less beneficial than the reinstatement of the half-hourly fast service between Cheltenham Spa and Bristol Temple Meads would be, calling intermediately only at Bristol Parkway, plus all of the 2019 services between Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa. It's not as if Cam & Dursley or Yate are large enough traffic drivers for the increase in themselves.

Of course, a half-hourly fast service between Bristol and Birmingham again is probably not coming back this decade at this rate.
 

Birmingham

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Arguably the additional service to Gloucester is less beneficial than the reinstatement of the half-hourly fast service between Cheltenham Spa and Bristol Temple Meads would be, calling intermediately only at Bristol Parkway, plus all of the 2019 services between Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa. It's not as if Cam & Dursley or Yate are large enough traffic drivers for the increase in themselves.

Of course, a half-hourly fast service between Bristol and Birmingham again is probably not coming back this decade at this rate.
Agree that’s a better journey between Bristol and Gloucester. The fast services in the other half of the hour also provide connections to Worcester at Cheltenham, in that you can leave Bristol later than the Worcester (which goes via Gloucester) and change to it at Cheltenham.

Worth noting that Worcester is still only 1tp2h! I believe that was supposed to go to 1tph as part of the same scheme that was to take Gloucester to 2tph.
 

Tazilly

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I’ve tried to book a Caledonian sleeper service for October 6 2023 from Inverness to Crewe. Inverness to London is available but customer service says that intermediate calls such as Preston and Crewe are not yet agreed for 2023. Does anyone know if there are any provisions in the upcoming December changes. Thanks
 

JonathanH

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I’ve tried to book a Caledonian sleeper service for October 6 2023 from Inverness to Crewe. Inverness to London is available but customer service says that intermediate calls such as Preston and Crewe are not yet agreed for 2023. Does anyone know if there are any provisions in the upcoming December changes. Thanks
The issue will simply be around committing to stopping at Preston and Crewe on Friday night / Saturday morning without confirmation that there is no engineering work forcing diversions away from the WCML. It won't be because of a timetable change.
 

Tazilly

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Thanks for that. I hadn’t taken into account the possibility of engineering works. I’ve checked other dates however, and there’s “no service” to Crewe on any days after the first week of January. Customer service told me that they would probably know some time in November which prompted me to think about timetable amendments.
 

Jack Hay

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A welcome development for those of us in north Cheshire or south Warrington, I hear that LNR are going to provide an all-day hourly service at Acton Bridge from December, and indeed it is showing in RTT now. When LNR took over there were 4 hour gaps in the service at ACB. They reduced the gaps to 2 hr a few years ago. Soon to be hourly. This will make the station much more usable.
 
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jonnyfan

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Looks like the Irlam calls in the TPE Liverpool train are now shown as public calls in the up direction.
That's progress, the Up platform has no stepping height issues so there is no reason for TPE not to call there. Network Rail need to get a move on to sort the Down platform before December, Northern and local councils are really pushing for it to be completed by the timetable change.
 

frodshamfella

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A welcome development for those of us in north Cheshire or south Warrington, I hear that LNR are going to provide an all-day hourly service at Acton Bridge from December, and indeed it is showing in RTT now. When LNR took over there were 4 hour gaps in the service at ACB. They reduced the gaps to 2 hr a few years ago. Soon to be hourly. This will make the station much more usable.

Thats good, they just need to improve the car parking now .
 
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