December 2022 Timetable Changes

[PGAT]

Were the changes put out to public consultation or just imposed under the cover of covid cutbacks or other scheme?

Highly doubt there would be a public consultation. Obviously they want to keep their services, but it’s not like Southern can poof new rolling stock and drivers out of existence because over 80% wanted to keep the service.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I would have thought Shoreditch High Street might be closer but it would certainly be simplier in terms of platform choice and probably number of people using the station too.


Agree changing trains is a deterrent and has a journey time penalty.

Were the changes put out to public consultation or just imposed under the cover of covid cutbacks or other scheme?

Shoreditch High Street is admittedly better than Canada Water in terms of locality to the city.

I don’t believe there was a consultation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Sep 2022 ==

But if I lived in Charlton I’d be really pleased I can now go to Whitechapel or Shoreditch easily (nice walk to the City) and then to places in the North. And I wouldn’t be annoyed at Charing Cross being available every 8-10 minutes with one change, and thus the same in reverse.

Fine and dandy for you

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Sep 2022 ==

Nobody is forcing them into it. But how would they previously have got to, say, Paddington? London Bridge, change, Baker Street, change, Paddington.

What of Docklands? Change at London Bridge, Jubilee line. Now it’s Shadwell, Canada Water or Whitechapel.

For the *actual* square mile, there’s Whitechapel or Shoreditch and a walk, or Crossrail, or the District / H&C. There’s also the frequency benefit.

You seem to live in a strange world where London Bridge is a true “destination” for the old South Central Metro and is a must, whilst London Bridge is simultaneously not truly a destination if it’s from Charlton or Woolwich.

And this, as it shall now be known, is the “North Kent Paradox”.

Did I say that London Bridge isn’t a destination for Woolwich and Charlton? I don’t recall that at all I simply said Charing Cross is where they want to go.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Sep 2022 ==

Charlton is going to last and people will exist happily without Charing Cross trains.

A smorgasbord of services from London Bridge means you hop on from Charing Cross and almost always have a sub-10 minute connection. If you go from Charing Cross you effectively end up with one cancellation and everything’s buggered.

Connections are fine, London Bridge is great, it’s a big destination, and the very nature of the beast is that Thameslink and Crossrail is completely redrawing the way people think of going.

And the North Kent line will be happily going along with their Cannon Street trains.

The Charing Cross service has always been pretty reliable in my experience, Thameslink is the one that can bugger things up, I should know I use both services, half the time I end up using Charing Cross.

Why would they be happy losing Charing Cross when it’s clearly a popular destination, the Docklands is very much a 9-5 place with very few entertainment venues, I think you’re overselling it quite frankly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Sep 2022 ==

This is absolutely spot on. Innovation and change was never driven by the luddites.

We need people to get out of that little box they have created, and many of them are barely travelling once a fortnight for leisure so quite frankly they aren’t what matters.

For many on the North Kent heading for their commuter places like the City, all the trains going to Cannon Street is excellent news.

There’s already 4tph to Cannon Street, you’re saying this like this is new

 

[Starmill]

There was indeed lots of complaining when Southern services to Charing Cross were withdrawn, especially for the evenings out. Of course nobody remembers that now.

 

[mangyiscute]

If I'm honest I don't think that losing these direct services into London Bridge from Anerley/Penge West and Charing X from Woolwich/Bexleyheath will affect passenger numbers too much, as when travelling into central London there aren't too many other choices as driving is not the best choice - I expect passengers will use different routes such as the Elizabeth line from Woolwich or the service from Crystal Palace/Penge East. Other options such as cycling may exist for some people but personally, I would be very happy with more people cycling and walking for their journeys, as long as there isn't more shift to cars then it is fine (there is often a lot of will on this forum for the train to compete against coaches, and personally I think that it's great for passengers to use a coach or a train on longer journeys, we need to shift people who use a car or a plane).
I saw someone mention earlier that people from the Bexleyheath line won't want to use the Elizabeth line as it involves a bus journey to Woolwich or Abbey Wood, but considering the majority of people will probably need to take a bus to the station anyway and bus links to these stations are being improved, I don't see this as an issue.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

If I'm honest I don't think that losing these direct services into London Bridge from Anerley/Penge West and Charing X from Woolwich/Bexleyheath will affect passenger numbers too much, as when travelling into central London there aren't too many other choices as driving is not the best choice - I expect passengers will use different routes such as the Elizabeth line from Woolwich or the service from Crystal Palace/Penge East. Other options such as cycling may exist for some people but personally, I would be very happy with more people cycling and walking for their journeys, as long as there isn't more shift to cars then it is fine (there is often a lot of will on this forum for the train to compete against coaches, and personally I think that it's great for passengers to use a coach or a train on longer journeys, we need to shift people who use a car or a plane).
I saw someone mention earlier that people from the Bexleyheath line won't want to use the Elizabeth line as it involves a bus journey to Woolwich or Abbey Wood, but considering the majority of people will probably need to take a bus to the station anyway and bus links to these stations are being improved, I don't see this as an issue.

100%. Large areas in Bexley in the areas like Northumberland Heath, West Heath, East Wickham and the like that used to go to Barnehurst, Bexleyheath and Welling respectively will now go to Erith, Abbey Wood and probably Woolwich to use the Liz Line. It makes sense - their “destinations” were never fundamentally Charing Cross but Oxford Circus, Tottenham Court Road, Holborn and the like. The Lizzie now makes that a million times easier.

 

[brad465]

Confirmed. Slowing creeping on to RTT. Will be semi fast between Dartford and Gravesend only stopping at Greenhithe.

Yeah that will be the service covering North Kent. Calls at St John's and new Cross if you are wondering.

Really the semi-fast arrangement between DFD-GRV is more effective on services that go beyond Gravesend, rather than as a tag along at the end of an otherwise stopping service. Presumably it's there as some form of evening out the timetable spacing in that area.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Really the semi-fast arrangement between DFD-GRV is more effective on services that go beyond Gravesend, rather than as a tag along at the end of an otherwise stopping service. Presumably it's there as some form of evening out the timetable spacing in that area.

It would’ve made more sense to skip St. John’s and New Cross, it’s an odd calling pattern for sure, especially since the parallel Thameslink service makes calls at the shacks between Dartford, Greenhithe and Gravesend and runs out to Medway.

It seems to be a old leftover from the old CHX-Gillingham semi fasts.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

It would’ve made more sense to skip St. John’s and New Cross, it’s an odd calling pattern for sure, especially since the parallel Thameslink service makes calls at the shacks between Dartford, Greenhithe and Gravesend and runs out to Medway.

It seems to be a old leftover from the old CHX-Gillingham semi fasts.

But for people in Stone, Swanscombe and Northfleet it means a large number of single-change journey opportunities, or direct journeys, that did not exist.

As for New Cross and St Johns, if the pathing at peak times is such that you’re just stuffing the schedule with performance and pathing allowances as you slowly trundle through, you may as well stop the train. Add to that then the timetable stays the same off peak, and you get those new journey opportunities such as via New Cross, and it makes perfect sense.

All in all, very positive changes.

 

[cle]

But for people in Stone, Swanscombe and Northfleet it means a large number of single-change journey opportunities, or direct journeys, that did not exist.

As for New Cross and St Johns, if the pathing at peak times is such that you’re just stuffing the schedule with performance and pathing allowances as you slowly trundle through, you may as well stop the train. Add to that then the timetable stays the same off peak, and you get those new journey opportunities such as via New Cross, and it makes perfect sense.

All in all, very positive changes.

I think it's good to have both semi-fast and stopping routes feeding Abbey Wood. And for those on both, like Gravesend and Greenhithe, it's 4tph, if not even.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I think it's good to have both semi-fast and stopping routes feeding Abbey Wood. And for those on both, like Gravesend and Greenhithe, it's 4tph, if not even.

It’s a good start, and with a few refinements they can really crack this.

But they do need to get rid of Thameslink, or get them to run the slow service via Meopham, or even run it via an alternative route such as Bexleyheath or Sidcup, to even the service out properly.

 

[NorthKent1989]

But for people in Stone, Swanscombe and Northfleet it means a large number of single-change journey opportunities, or direct journeys, that did not exist.

As for New Cross and St Johns, if the pathing at peak times is such that you’re just stuffing the schedule with performance and pathing allowances as you slowly trundle through, you may as well stop the train. Add to that then the timetable stays the same off peak, and you get those new journey opportunities such as via New Cross, and it makes perfect sense.

All in all, very positive changes.

I don’t think people in Gravesend are bothered by New Cross when Abbey Wood has the Elizabeth line that makes the connection to Docklands and City faster and closer and at 4tph even Charlton residents are going to Woolwich by bus if they prefer it, then there’s also the DLR at Greenwich, so New Cross is hardly needed for such things, it’s only Blackheath that gets New Cross and they had those to begin with so nothing really new there…

 

[bicbasher]

I don’t think people in Gravesend are bothered by New Cross when Abbey Wood has the Elizabeth line that makes the connection to Docklands and City faster and closer and at 4tph even Charlton residents are going to Woolwich by bus if they prefer it, then there’s also the DLR at Greenwich, so New Cross is hardly needed for such things, it’s only Blackheath that gets New Cross and they had those to begin with so nothing really new there…

And that's before you factor in those who continue to use the Jubilee line at North Greenwich using bus connections from Charlton station.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I don’t think people in Gravesend are bothered by New Cross when Abbey Wood has the Elizabeth line that makes the connection to Docklands and City faster and closer and at 4tph even Charlton residents are going to Woolwich by bus if they prefer it, then there’s also the DLR at Greenwich, so New Cross is hardly needed for such things, it’s only Blackheath that gets New Cross and they had those to begin with so nothing really new there…

But everything is balancing the needs of politician types, local people and their supposed “must haves”, the data showing where people actually go and what the infrastructure can reliably supply.

The old North Kent timetable, stuff was fast from Woolwich to London Bridge decades ago and fast between Woolwich and Dartford also, so places like Abbey Wood and Charlton didn’t get Charing Cross trains.

The fact is that where we are now, and how the world is changing, and how much of the North Kent passenger flow is effectively going to dead stop at Abbey Wood (and those trains will basically churn everyone from the Kent side off and then rebuild passenger numbers from Charlton onwards), means things had to change.

The Dartford to Charing Cross stopping services were not viable. Neither, seemingly, is even Bexleyheath to Charing Cross. Things move on, people will stomp their feet, and they’ll still use the train. They’re not getting in the car, and they’re probably, for leisure, already making sure someone drops them off at Abbey Wood or what have you.

I look forward to the new timetable.

 

[NorthKent1989]

And that's before you factor in those who continue to use the Jubilee line at North Greenwich using bus connections from Charlton station.

Exactly, I actually forgot about the Jubilee line for a moment seeing as the Liz Line has trumped it, but I really don’t see anyone waiting for a train just to change for a slow ELL train at New Cross

 

[bicbasher]

Exactly, I actually forgot about the Jubilee line for a moment seeing as the Liz Line has trumped it, but I really don’t see anyone waiting for a train just to change for a slow ELL train at New Cross

The Greenwich line has decent connections, Abbey Wood for the Elizabeth Line, Woolwich Arsenal for the DLR, Charlton for a short bus connection to North Greenwich LU and Greenwich for the DLR.

New Cross is useful for those who live in New Cross or Deptford at a stretch for locals to get a seat on the ELL during the peaks when the services from New Cross Gate are full or if they want to get to London Bridge or for local trips to Blackheath, Lee or Hither Green for example but for connections from other parts of the SE Metro area is a bit of a stretch when they have Lewisham which offers better connections.

 

[London Trains]

Honestly LO should probably bin off New Cross and use the services to run 6tph to all of West Croydon, Crystal Palace and Clapham Junction.

 

[PGAT]

Honestly LO should probably bin off New Cross and use the services to run 6tph to all of West Croydon, Crystal Palace and Clapham Junction.

6tph is not a stable frequency for all the trains to terminate at 1 platform.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Honestly LO should probably bin off New Cross and use the services to run 6tph to all of West Croydon, Crystal Palace and Clapham Junction.

There is no capacity for any of those.

 

[NorthKent1989]

But everything is balancing the needs of politician types, local people and their supposed “must haves”, the data showing where people actually go and what the infrastructure can reliably supply.

The old North Kent timetable, stuff was fast from Woolwich to London Bridge decades ago and fast between Woolwich and Dartford also, so places like Abbey Wood and Charlton didn’t get Charing Cross trains.

The fact is that where we are now, and how the world is changing, and how much of the North Kent passenger flow is effectively going to dead stop at Abbey Wood (and those trains will basically churn everyone from the Kent side off and then rebuild passenger numbers from Charlton onwards), means things had to change.

The Dartford to Charing Cross stopping services were not viable. Neither, seemingly, is even Bexleyheath to Charing Cross. Things move on, people will stomp their feet, and they’ll still use the train. They’re not getting in the car, and they’re probably, for leisure, already making sure someone drops them off at Abbey Wood or what have you.

I look forward to the new timetable.

If they balanced on where people want to go, then CHX trains would be kept, since those trains are still well used even post Liz Line.

Sorry but where are you getting your info from as you’re incorrect, Charlton and Abbey Wood had Charing Cross trains as far back as the 50s and earlier, those were stoppers via Greenwich while CS trains went via Lewisham, even the 90s the Greenwich service was CHX meaning Charlton had such services, so you’re incorrect, just look at any old timetable and you’ll see such service patterns.

They’re only not viable because you say so, that’s only your opinion, many have campaigned to keep such services because they’re popular.

 

[bicbasher]

Looking at Erith and Belvedere, it appears for most of the day, it's served only by Cannon Street rounders after losing the Dartford to Charing Cross via Lewisham stoppers, so there's no direct service to Dartford while TL speeds past to Slade Green. From an Erith perspective, it'll only send pax on local buses to Abbey Wood to get the Lizzie into the West End or the 428 to Dartford.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Honestly LO should probably bin off New Cross and use the services to run 6tph to all of West Croydon, Crystal Palace and Clapham Junction.

Won’t happen, though they did want to increase the Clapham branch to 6tph but I don’t think that’s going ahead now.

Looking at Erith and Belvedere, it appears for most of the day, it's served only by Cannon Street rounders after losing the Dartford to Charing Cross via Lewisham stoppers, so there's no direct service to Dartford while TL speeds past to Slade Green. From an Erith perspective, it'll only send pax on local buses to Abbey Wood to get the Lizzie into the West End or the 428 to Dartford.

They’re still going to have trains to Lewisham & Dartford

 

[PGAT]

You could probably get away with an extra 2 tph to Battersea Park to relieve some congestion at the platforms

 

[MikeWh]

Sorry but where are you getting your info from as you’re incorrect, Charlton and Abbey Wood had Charing Cross trains as far back as the 50s and earlier, those were stoppers via Greenwich while CS trains went via Lewisham, even the 90s the Greenwich service was CHX meaning Charlton had such services, so you’re incorrect, just look at any old timetable and you’ll see such service patterns.

What he's probably refering to was the fast trains which in my childhood (60s) did run CHX-WAE-LBG-WWA-DFD-GRV then all stops to Gillingham.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The Greenwich line has decent connections, Abbey Wood for the Elizabeth Line, Woolwich Arsenal for the DLR, Charlton for a short bus connection to North Greenwich LU and Greenwich for the DLR.

New Cross is useful for those who live in New Cross or Deptford at a stretch for locals to get a seat on the ELL during the peaks when the services from New Cross Gate are full or if they want to get to London Bridge or for local trips to Blackheath, Lee or Hither Green for example but for connections from other parts of the SE Metro area is a bit of a stretch when they have Lewisham which offers better connections.

Exactly, New Cross has never been that much of a major interchange compared to Greenwich, Lewisham, Woolwich and now Abbey Wood, so anyone suggesting New Cross will be a major draw now is mistaken, it’s range as you say stretches to Deptford and maybe Greenwich.

What he's probably refering to was the fast trains which in my childhood (60s) did run CHX-WAE-LBG-WWA-DFD-GRV then all stops to Gillingham.

Oh I know what he’s referring to, I was pointing out that even though the fasts didn’t call at those stations years ago they still had CHX trains

 

[Timmyd]

There is no capacity for any of those.

Understand re Clapham but Southern is barely running anything up the slows and Palace at least has plenty of capacity for trains to turn back

 

[PGAT]

and Palace at least has plenty of capacity for trains to turn back

Depends. Is platform 3 at Palace actually operational or not?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Understand re Clapham but Southern is barely running anything up the slows and Palace at least has plenty of capacity for trains to turn back

Even if you take away the bay platform not in use, you have a bay that should be able to be used 4tph, and you should (??) be able to reverse on the Victoria-bound platform that rounder trains use at least 2tph.

 

[Timmyd]

Depends. Is platform 3 at Palace actually operational or not?

I believe so, think Southern used to a couple in the mornings there before slashing their timetables

 

[PGAT]

I believe so, think Southern used to a couple in the mornings there before slashing their timetables

Also I checked and trains can turnback from Plat 4 but it might cause conflict with other services.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Also I checked and trains can turnback from Plat 4 but it might cause conflict with other services.

You’d hope that if you just slot something in the other 26 odd minutes in each 30 minute block when it isn’t being used you could do it…