December 2022 Timetable Changes

[Some guy]

Nothing ambitious about the running times, trains use said timings in the current timetable hour after hour, just not with that particular stopping pattern.

Exactly it only takes about 45 minutes from Euston to rugby and Coventry is 8 minutes after there so it’s easily doable in 55 minutes Euston to Coventry

 

[The Planner]

No TSRs on and you should be doing it in 51 minutes Euston to Cov.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I don't, unlike @TT-ONR-NRN, think running under the wires Euston-Brum makes any more or less sense than running under the wires Euston-Glasgow. It's still all under the wires.

Less chance of a short form, short carriages and underfloor engines on a long journey

 

[Bletchleyite]

Less chance of a short form, short carriages and underfloor engines on a long journey

There is that, though I've always preferred a Voyager over Shap, the big almost-panoramic windows are great for the scenery.

 

[greyman42]

The new Birmingham semifasts from December are using 80x timings. Voyagers generally beat those timings.

Why is this the case?

 

[Watershed]

Why is this the case?

To allow the 80x to be introduced as soon as they're ready. In reality I'd be surprised if they were actually in service before 2024, but it would be pointless making one timetable using 221 timings and then having to rewrite it a year later with 80x timings.

 

[Jimini]

Is there a list (or thread maybe) somewhere that details the difference between what will be the 80x permitted linespeeds on the WCML vs the EPS speeds, out of interest?

 

[Mag_seven]

Just a reminder that this thread is for discussion of the December 2022 Timetable Changes.

If anyone wants to discuss anything else they are welcome to start a new thread.

I have moved some posts discussing new LNER rolling stock to this thread:

LNER New Trains (2023-)

Good morning, Does anyone have any information on the new trains that LNER intend to purchase for replacing the ten retained Intercity 225 sets when they’re off leased in approximately 2023? I know that they want approximately six but I wondered if there was any more details that had been...

www.railforums.co.uk

thanks

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

I have always questioned why it wasn’t possible to get a 20:30 to Scotland, even if it was a ‘Stopper’ to Preston and then even non-stop to Scotland.

Preston - Carlisle - Glasgow please!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have always questioned why it wasn’t possible to get a 20:30 to Scotland, even if it was a ‘Stopper’ to Preston and then even non-stop to Scotland.

I think that would be well used, but might harm the Sleeper. Nonetheless I would be in support of it.

 

[TheBigD]

I have always questioned why it wasn’t possible to get a 20:30 to Scotland, even if it was a ‘Stopper’ to Preston and then even non-stop to Scotland.

Over on the ECML the last train to Scotland was 1900 for many many years, and 1930 on a Friday.
Its only just recently that Lumo have run a later departure at 2027, though it does terminate a Newcastle Monday to Thursday roughly every 8 weeks due to engineering possessions.

 

[Watershed]

I think that would be well used, but might harm the Sleeper. Nonetheless I would be in support of it.

You'd have to ease the engineering blockade times around Glasgow - the line is shut between around midnight and 5am (the exact times vary by section). Doable in principle but no doubt the engineers would want extra hours elsewhere to compensate, so that could mean the first train south on a Sunday morning being an hour or two later. It's not a zero sum game unfortunately.

Within the current times you could probably have a 20:00 from Euston, but not much later than that. Of course the timetable isn't designed around such a train, so it wouldn't work without a bit of a rewrite.

 

[IrishDave]

Why is this the case?

Because 80x can't use EPS speeds, because they can't tilt. Voyagers may be slower to accelerate but they can do 125mph; 80x are currently limited largely to 110mph on the WCML.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because 80x can't use EPS speeds, because they can't tilt. Voyagers may be slower to accelerate but they can do 125mph; 80x are currently limited largely to 110mph on the WCML.

Actually there is a middle speed for Voyagers due to the lower degree of tilt. It is not unusual to see a sign saying 390: 125, 221: 115, others 110 or 100.

 

[Bald Rick]

Why is this the case?

Put simply, the Voyagers are quicker.

Is there a list (or thread maybe) somewhere that details the difference between what will be the 80x permitted linespeeds on the WCML vs the EPS speeds, out of interest?

Not publicly, no, until the Network Change is published. It’s not just the 80x though, it will be a new ‘MU’ speed profile.

You'd have to ease the engineering blockade times around Glasgow - the line is shut between around midnight and 5am (the exact times vary by section). Doable in principle but no doubt the engineers would want extra hours elsewhere to compensate, so that could mean the first train south on a Sunday morning being an hour or two later. It's not a zero sum game unfortunately.

Within the current times you could probably have a 20:00 from Euston, but not much later than that. Of course the timetable isn't designed around such a train, so it wouldn't work without a bit of a rewrite.

There’s also a lot of time critical freight in the way - Tesco trains, Freightliners and (soon) parcels traffic. There is a flight of them northbound from Carlisle right when a putative 2030 ex Euston would be on their tail light. Even if looping them was acceptable in commercial terms, the logistics of having long enough loops in the right place for 4 or 5 freights a total of about 40 minutes apart would be a recipe for very poor reliability.

Because 80x can't use EPS speeds, because they can't tilt. Voyagers may be slower to accelerate but they can do 125mph; 80x are currently limited largely to 110mph on the WCML.

And there are some bigger reductions, eg 90mph through Linslade tunnel and curves, 100 through Berkhamsted and Weedon, and also from Rugby (inclusive) to Brinklow / Coventry.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Sep 2022 ==

Actually there is a middle speed for Voyagers due to the lower degree of tilt. It is not unusual to see a sign saying 390: 125, 221: 115, others 110 or 100.

only at Berkhamsted, Linslade, Weedon and Rugby (south of Weaver).

 

[The Planner]

Not publicly, no, until the Network Change is published. It’s not just the 80x though, it will be a new ‘MU’ speed profile.

Even then you won't see the detail, appendix A doesnt get published on the website.

 

[splashoutradio]

We've still got a long while until the start of the December timetables, so the usual caveats apply; some trains are likely missing and there'll be changes before the timetable goes live. But in the off chance that they can be of use, the first copies of the December timetables have been uploaded to: www.railwaydata.co.uk/timetables/gbr

 

[mister-sparky]

Any news on the southeastern changes yet?

 

[northernbelle]

Stuck between a rock and a hard place. If they go to Hitachi you get trains “expensive as ****” with a terrible ride and poor reliability.

Poor reliability? Hardly.

 

[SeanM1997]

Some of the operators are not back to pre-COVID levels which makes connectivity quite poor from Crewe. For instance (departures):
Towards Liverpool Lime Street - xx:26 and xx:34 (then none for 52 minutes!) - also only an hourly service before 0830
Towards Birmingham New Street - xx:04, xx:19 and xx:59 - 40 minutes between services but the xx:04 is via Stoke so 45 minutes between fast services!
Towards Stoke on Trent - xx:10 and xx:59 - 49 minutes between services and the xx:10 EMR doesn't operate every hour

Departing Liverpool Lime Street - xx:18, xx:21 - 57 minutes between services!
Departing Birmingham New Street - xx:07, xx:25, xx:30 - 37 minutes between services

No non stop services between Crewe and London Euston

Yet there are 6 trains an hour between Crewe and Stafford - 4 of which are express! (3 Avanti & 1 LNWR)

The changes seem to make Crewe less useful as a hub for connections - especially to Liverpool and Birmingham from local towns and wider services. Hopefully changes improve for future seasons

 

[Watershed]

Some of the operators are not back to pre-COVID levels which makes connectivity quite poor from Crewe. For instance (departures):
Towards Liverpool Lime Street - xx:26 and xx:34 (then none for 52 minutes!) - also only an hourly service before 0830
Towards Birmingham New Street - xx:04, xx:19 and xx:59 - 40 minutes between services but the xx:04 is via Stoke so 45 minutes between fast services!
Towards Stoke on Trent - xx:10 and xx:59 - 49 minutes between services and the xx:10 EMR doesn't operate every hour

Departing Liverpool Lime Street - xx:18, xx:21 - 57 minutes between services!
Departing Birmingham New Street - xx:07, xx:25, xx:30 - 37 minutes between services

No regular fast services between Crewe and Milton Keynes - only services via Birmingham or via Trent Valley
No non stop services between Crewe and London Euston

Yet there are 6 trains an hour between Crewe and Stafford - 5 of which are express! (4 Avanti & 1 LNWR)

The changes seem to make Crewe less useful as a hub for connections - especially to Liverpool and Birmingham from local towns and wider services. Hopefully changes improve for future seasons

As you say, the situation isn't helped by Avanti and WMT still running a reduced service to/from Liverpool. Both are/were supposed to be 2tph, yet both are just running 1tph. It's very unfortunate that they've chosen to go with those slots though (particularly WMT changing which side of the hour they run compared to today) as they make for a very unbalanced service.

I think there's a chance of both reaching the 2tph which they should be operating at, but it's not brilliant. If I were a gambler I'd wager that Avanti will eventually reach 2tph (maybe in 2 or 3 years' time) but WMT won't.

As for non-stop services, the December Avanti recast is all about connectivity and so these were always going to be a casualty. I can't say it's a huge loss, as the only non-stop service (the Manchester via Crewe, which is cancelled at the moment anyway) tailed the ex-Liverpool in the Up direction, often getting checked outside Stafford. But I doubt that non-stop services will ever return - the nearest you'll get is when HS2 opens, but even those will stop at Old Oak Common...

 

[BPN2022]

Will the Preston-Man Vic stopper on Northern ever return?

 

[Watershed]

Will the Preston-Man Vic stopper on Northern ever return?

It's dead. Part of the MRTF changes.

That's not to say it couldn't return in a future recast. But it won't be back in the next 5 or 10 years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's dead. Part of the MRTF changes.

That's not to say it couldn't return in a future recast. But it won't be back in the next 5 or 10 years.

It didn't exist for very long, did it? So probably not as big a take-away as some other things. So far as I recall, post Windsor Link Preston was largely served by trains to Piccadilly only, you didn't get trains going to Vic (from Blackburn and Southport) joining the line until Bolton.

 

[Starmill]

It didn't exist for very long, did it?

It did. Prior to 2018 it was a DMU service running Manchester Victoria - Blackpool North and calling all stations except Salwick. So it must go back to at least 2008.

At least it means nobody will be able to complain about the long distance diesel trains having to make a stop at Chorley, and peak stops at Horwich Parkway.

 

[northwichcat]

It did. Prior to 2018 it was a DMU service running Manchester Victoria - Blackpool North and calling all stations except Salwick. So it must go back to at least 2008.

Yep. It existed when Northern had the loan of the 5 car Intercity trains because the class 150s weren't cascaded in time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It did. Prior to 2018 it was a DMU service running Manchester Victoria - Blackpool North and calling all stations except Salwick. So it must go back to at least 2008.

At least it means nobody will be able to complain about the long distance diesel trains having to make a stop at Chorley, and peak stops at Horwich Parkway.

But not the early 1990s (?) like most other trains through Bolton?

 

[northwichcat]

But not the early 1990s (?) like most other trains through Bolton?

Wasn't the additional local service partly 'compensation' for Bolton losing the 2 hourly Virgin Manchester to Scotland service, in favour of existing Manchester Airport to Windermere services being diverted to Scotland?

 

[CAF397]

Yep. It existed when Northern had the loan of the 5 car Intercity trains because the class 150s weren't cascaded in time.

Not the sole reason for that service. Of the 3 class 180s, only one was on the Blackpool/Manchester Victoria diagrams a day (the second was on the Blackpool/Preston-Hazel Grove) and the 3rd was spare.

Post electrification this was a Class 319, and briefly last year it was a 2-hourly service using a pair of Class 331s and was quite well utilised.

 

[Starmill]

But not the early 1990s (?) like most other trains through Bolton?

Most routes have rather different services now to what they did in the early 1990s. Regardless of whether you take the comparison to be December 2019 or December 2022...