December 2022 Timetable Changes

[Some guy]

I’ve noticed TPE WCML services every service all day calls at all stations between Preston and Edinburgh/Glasgow which has been well needed. It made no sense why the 08:12 liv to Glasgow was nonstop from Preston to Penrith. Another thing I’ve noticed the 13:30 Euston to Glasgow now calls at Lancaster albeit penrith losing the stop

 

[IanXC]

Transpennine seem to have achieved a pretty good set of timings:

From Liverpool:
LIV-NCL xx24
LIV-HUL xx54

LIV-CLE xx19
LIV-NRW xx 51

At Leeds westbound:
HUL-LIV xx00
SCA-MAN xx07 (1tp2h)
NCL-MAN xx15 (1tp2h)
LDS-WGN xx 17 (Northern)
NCL-LIV xx30
SLB-MIA xx45
LDS-HUD xx47

The Newcastle to Piccadilly seems to step into the Scarborough to Manchester path at Stalybridge and in the other direction at Huddersfield. I guess this means long terms that it goes to Manchester Victoria or even to the Airport.

 

[Mathew S]

Presumably the same happens with the Edinburgh trains, does it? The railway seem to have it in for people travelling from the north and Scotland to Oxford and points south -- there's already a wait of nearly an hour at Birmingham if you're coming from the Sheffield/ECML direction, and it sounds as if the same will happen for journeys from the northern WCML as well. I hope that whoever it is that benefits from the latest change, they are suitably grateful.

(Yes, I know you can go via London, but for my journeys that's usually a bit more expensive, a bit slower than can be achieved with a decent service on the direct route, and much less convenient).

It does indeed, it's the same on all the Avanti Scotland via Birmingham services, as far as I've seen. I do Oxford - Warrington at least three times a month for work and, tbh, it's enough to get me back into the car.

 

[miklcct]

SWR is up.

Waterloo - Weymouth:

• xx05's will have a portion detached at Bournemouth to form a portion for Branksome, Parkstone, Poole off-peak.
• Peak hour portions divided from Southampton to Poole will become 1Bxx instead of 2Bxx, but without timetable changes.
• The 16:35 will add a call at Basingstoke.
• The 07:03 will be truncated to terminate at Poole and calls at all stations after Brockenhurst
• The 21:05 and 22:05 will return to terminate at Bournemouth, calling at all stations after Totton (except Beaulieu Road).
• The 21:35 will lose the call at Totton and Ashurst as the result of 21:05 and 22:05 calling there.
• Winchester - Bournemouth stoppers will be truncated to terminate at Southampton in the westbound direction only, with the exception that, on Mon - Fri,
  • the 08:50 will depart at 08:41 without being overtaken and arrive an hour earlier;
  • the 16:38 (which calls at Redbridge) will remain in the current form;
  • the 17:44 to Southampton will be replaced by the 16:12 Waterloo - Basingstoke stopper extended to Southampton, but will no longer call at Shawford, as a result, the next train from Winchester after 16:38 which calls at Shawford will be the 18:22 - I presume this is an oversight and will be fixed;
  • the 17:12 Waterloo - Basingstoke stopper will extend to Southampton as well, which calls at all stations after Basingstoke;
  • there will be a new 19:49 Winchester - Southampton stopper which calls at all stations (including Swaythling and St Denys).
• Southampton - Bournemouth stoppers departs at xx:56 at Southampton rather than xx:30 in the past and arrive at Bournemouth at the old timing.
• Bournemouth - Winchester stoppers will remain eastbound, with the 16:02 departure extended to Basingstoke.
• The Saturday Poole - Winchester stoppers will be truncated to start from Bournemouth, as on Mon - Fri.
• The 06:01 Bournemouth - Waterloo will be extended to start from Poole, and will call at Basingstoke in addition. The 06:34 will remain non-stop from Winchester to Waterloo.
• The 07:20 Poole - Winchester, which is now overtaken by the 06:55 Weymouth - Waterloo service at Southampton, will join the latter with the whole train running to Waterloo.
• The 07:55 Poole (08:10 Bournemouth) - Waterloo will run later at its usual off-peak pattern at 08:05 (08:22 Bournemouth), with the minor stations replaced by a new 08:02 Bournemouth - Winchester service which will form the return service previously operated by the 07:20 Poole - Winchester.
• The 07:25 Weymouth - Brockenhurst will extend to Waterloo, joining the 07:55 Weymouth - Waterloo at Southampton, with the former calling at all stations (except Beaulieu Road) between Poole and Totton.
• The last eastbound train from Weymouth Mon - Fri will be extended to 22:10, which will terminate at Southampton. The 21:00 to Woking will not change.
• The 17:24 Southampton - Eastleigh will be extended to Basingstoke.
• No material change on Saturday Waterloo - Weymouth services, with the 22:12 last train from Bournemouth to Waterloo extended to start at Poole.
• The bustituted Monday morning 01:05 Waterloo - Southampton is gone, other than that no material change on Sunday Waterloo - Weymouth / Poole services.

Waterloo - Portsmouth (via Basingstoke)

• The first train on Saturday from Portsmouth will be retimed later and no longer call at minor stations after Basingstoke, with the calls moved into a separate Basingstoke - Waterloo service. It will remain a valid connection at Basingstoke as the long wait at Eastleigh will be removed, making the train arriving at Basingstoke earlier despite starting later at Portsmouth.

Waterloo - Basingstoke

• Two evening peak service (16:12 and 17:12 from Waterloo) will be extended to Southampton.
• The 06:12 Waterloo - Basingstoke on Saturday is gone, pushing the first train from Waterloo half an hour later.
• The 07:24 Basingstoke - Waterloo service on Saturday will start from Basingstoke instead of Portsmouth, with another train from Portsmouth replacing it.

 

[JonathanH]

SWR

Waterloo to Reading runs hourly from 2020 into the later evening with the trains on the opposite side of the hour terminating at Bracknell.

 

[CAF397]

TPE timetable is unachievable without a Rest Day Working deal in place.

 

[Watershed]

I’ve noticed TPE WCML services every service all day calls at all stations between Preston and Edinburgh/Glasgow which has been well needed. It made no sense why the 08:12 liv to Glasgow was nonstop from Preston to Penrith. Another thing I’ve noticed the 13:30 Euston to Glasgow now calls at Lancaster albeit penrith losing the stop

Indeed they do. It's a significant improvement, though practically speaking I expect that it will just mean that Special Stop Orders are no longer needed when half the services are inevitably cancelled...

It does indeed, it's the same on all the Avanti Scotland via Birmingham services, as far as I've seen. I do Oxford - Warrington at least three times a month for work and, tbh, it's enough to get me back into the car.

It's down to the addition of a Stafford call - something which has really been overdue for years.

I think you'd find the Stafford to Preston/Glasgow/Edinburgh etc. market (plus improved connections from Penkridge, Stone, Stoke, the Trent Valley etc.) is larger than the NW-Oxford/Banbury/Leamington market and in any case, the fact that the connections worked out well in the southbound direction was a mere coincidence. They were always poor northbound.

Really what's needed is for XC to go back to the pre-Covid half hourly service on its core 'X'. Sadly that seems a very unlikely prospect in the current climate.

TPE timetable is unachievable without a Rest Day Working deal in place.

Of course. The same applies for many other operators.

 

[geordieblue]

I think you'd find the Stafford to Preston/Glasgow/Edinburgh etc. market (plus improved connections from Penkridge, Stone, Stoke, the Trent Valley etc.) is larger than the NW-Oxford/Banbury/Leamington market

Really?

 

[Watershed]

Really?

Anything involving a direct train will always have be much more attractive than journeys requiring a change.

 

[Greybeard33]

The Newcastle to Piccadilly seems to step into the Scarborough to Manchester path at Stalybridge and in the other direction at Huddersfield. I guess this means long terms that it goes to Manchester Victoria or even to the Airport.

I am puzzled that TPE is introducing 1tp2h between Piccadilly and Newcastle via Guide Bridge, which necessitates extended dwells at Huddersfield eastbound and Stalybridge westbound. If instead Piccadilly - Scarborough were made hourly, as per the consultation last year, the Piccadilly - York timetable could be clockface.

If the Liverpool service provides sufficient capacity between Leeds/York and Newcastle in alternate hours, why is the additional Piccadilly service needed in the intervening hours?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Indeed they do. It's a significant improvement, though practically speaking I expect that it will just mean that Special Stop Orders are no longer needed when half the services are inevitably cancelled...

It made an awful lot of sense why the 08:12 LIV-GLC didn't call at Lancaster or Oxenholme, when you looked at the graph. But luckily it looks like a solution has been found which enables that and the following train, the 08:04 Airport to Edinburgh, to call at all the stations.


It's down to the addition of a Stafford call - something which has really been overdue for years.

I think you'd find the Stafford to Preston/Glasgow/Edinburgh etc. market (plus improved connections from Penkridge, Stone, Stoke, the Trent Valley etc.) is larger than the NW-Oxford/Banbury/Leamington market and in any case, the fact that the connections worked out well in the southbound direction was a mere coincidence. They were always poor northbound.

Really what's needed is for XC to go back to the pre-Covid half hourly service on its core 'X'. Sadly that seems a very unlikely prospect in the current climate.


Of course. The same applies for many other operators.

You can’t say they were always poor northbound or southbound when you could at least have got a half-hourly service from Reading, Oxford, Banbury and Leamington to New Street, meaning a theoretical maximum of around 29 minutes for a connection.

That we are where we are with corridors such as Nottingham - Brum, (Newcastle - York) - Sheffield - Brum, Manchester - Brum, Liverpool - Brum, Bristol - Brum and Reading - Brum all having been half-hourly meaning perfectly decent connections and slashing parts to hourly, should mean we aren’t surprised that others have to go to road because it’s not good enough anymore.

If we could restore, as we should, half-hourly on the core routes of Reading, Manchester, Liverpool, Nottingham, at least York (hourly north of), Bristol and Leicester then you would start to layer up those connections and you can rebuild that leisure market we are rightly being told is existent. Add in maximising any and all available use of units and, as we move forward, 221s off WC or 222s from EMR (or a mixture) and standardising of the fleet (including Cardiff to Nottingham) and we might actually see people using trains and them paying for themselves.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I am puzzled that TPE is introducing 1tp2h between Piccadilly and Newcastle via Guide Bridge, which necessitates extended dwells at Huddersfield eastbound and Stalybridge westbound. If instead Piccadilly - Scarborough were made hourly, as per the consultation last year, the Piccadilly - York timetable could be clockface.

If the Liverpool service provides sufficient capacity between Leeds/York and Newcastle in alternate hours, why is the additional Piccadilly service needed in the intervening hours?

I’m glad they’re doing something, but as is obvious at the moment if there was the same level of pan-industry commitment to current timetabling as there was to all the Northern Taskforce stuff, we’d have a situation where a half-hourly long Azuma, an hourly 8 or 9 car 22x Cross Country and the 5 car 802 would all provide sufficient frequency that then you just stuff people onto other stuff at either York or Leeds.

I don’t believe you need the second hourly Newcastle that did exist. Indeed, feels as though what is needed is a 6 car Middlesbrough type, 6 car Hull, the 802, and then you have a high-capacity corridor on three fast trains. If you need more at peak, slap a 6 car down from Huddersfield along with the existing hourly Stopper.

 

[northwichcat]

I am puzzled that TPE is introducing 1tp2h between Piccadilly and Newcastle via Guide Bridge, which necessitates extended dwells at Huddersfield eastbound and Stalybridge westbound. If instead Piccadilly - Scarborough were made hourly, as per the consultation last year, the Piccadilly - York timetable could be clockface.

If the Liverpool service provides sufficient capacity between Leeds/York and Newcastle in alternate hours, why is the additional Piccadilly service needed in the intervening hours?

TPE are supposed to provide 2tph between Manchester and Newcastle, so 3tp2h is probably a way of saying they aren't still on a COVID timetable even if they aren't back to a full timetable.

The consultation originally proposed the Newcastle to Airport service would terminate at Victoria, which raised objections due to not providing connections at Piccadilly. That's probably part of the reason for a Piccadilly to Newcastle service and a Liverpool to Hull service.

 

[GoneSouth]

Poor Scarborough still stuck with half of its services shuttling to York and back. If it’s a 68 loco pulling that then it’s a criminal waste of a powerful beast!

Also, if there’s a stopper running from Leeds to Huddersfield and a stopper running from Huddersfield to Manchester, could they be joined up?

 

[CAF397]

It was meant to be a Manchester Victoria to Newcastle York service in its original guise (but the May 2020 TT that never was had a Liverpool-York and a Manchester Victoria-Newcastle service)

Both these options still doesn't address the imbalance for Yorkshire passengers who want Manchester Airport. They would have been left at Manchester Victoria to pile on an already busy Redcar-Airport service, or forced to change at Huddersfield or Leeds for the same train.

At least this time York passengers have a 2nd train per hour to Manchester Piccadilly where airport trains are frequent.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2022 ==

Also, if there’s a stopper running from Leeds to Huddersfield and a stopper running from Huddersfield to Manchester, could they be joined up?

That's the plan in the evenings.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Poor Scarborough still stuck with half of its services shuttling to York and back. If it’s a 68 loco pulling that then it’s a criminal waste of a powerful beast!

Also, if there’s a stopper running from Leeds to Huddersfield and a stopper running from Huddersfield to Manchester, could they be joined up?

68s are moving to South TPE which has hardly any wires, no?

 

[northwichcat]

Poor Scarborough still stuck with half of its services shuttling to York and back. If it’s a 68 loco pulling that then it’s a criminal waste of a powerful beast!

Rolling stock for the new TPE timetable will be interesting.

Are they going to use a 5 car Hitachi bi-mode on a service making calls at stations between Stalybridge and Huddersfield?

Will Liverpool to Cleethorpes services all have 6 cars from Liverpool to Sheffield, rather than from Manchester to Sheffield?

What will run Liverpool to Hull?

Also, if there’s a stopper running from Leeds to Huddersfield and a stopper running from Huddersfield to Manchester, could they be joined up?

They tried that before but reliability was very poor, which was why it became 2 services.

 

[A S Leib]

68s are moving to South TPE which has hardly any wires, no?

RTT says DMUs (unless they're moving after December?).

 

[Watershed]

RTT says DMUs (unless they're moving after December?).

For the millionth time, the timing load cannot be used to imply the booked traction...

 

[yorkie]

RTT says DMUs (unless they're moving after December?).

The open data source, referred to by open data sites such as Real-time trains, contains timing load information.

Timing load information cannot be used to determine allocations.

 

[td97]

Are they going to use a 5 car Hitachi bi-mode on a service making calls at stations between Stalybridge and Huddersfield?

Driver release shortens dwells. Plus 125mph is required for its path on the ECML to Newcastle.

 

[northwichcat]

For the millionth time, the timing load cannot be used to imply the booked traction...

If it did, then TPE would be short of 185s and wouldn't be using the loco-hauled sets at all!

 

[MikeWM]

Not only that, but they’ll now be using the “other” 30 min slot from the old twice-an-hour timetable, which means a 30-min earlier train if you want to get into Liverpool before 9am, and a 55-minute connection into the Trent Valley services southbound. But as long as Avanti get their new timetable eh! #cynical

Ah, how helpful. That'll mean a 56-minute wait every hour at New Street connecting from the Stansted service, and a 3-minute (so realistically a 63-minute) connection in the opposite direction.

 

[yorkie]

08:12 liv to Glasgow was nonstop from Preston to Penrith.

The TPE to Edinburgh is right behind it, and that looks to be constrained by a heavy freight which comes out behind it just after Carlisle, which in turn has to be looped at Beattock to be overtaken by an Avanti service.

Several changes occurring from December mean both these TPE services can depart earlier from Preston, so it's possible to add in these calls

 

[Mathew S]

the fact that the connections worked out well in the southbound direction was a mere coincidence. They were always poor northbound.

At risk of nitpicking, that's not actually true. It's less convenient than the cross-platform change at Wolverhampton SB for sure but only a ~20 minute change at Coventry/Birm. International/New Street.

Under the December 2022 timetable, the NB connection remains, but is made tighter - closer to 10 mins. But the SB connection becomes ~ 55 minutes.

Really what's needed is for XC to go back to the pre-Covid half hourly service on its core 'X'. Sadly that seems a very unlikely prospect in the current climate.

Agreed. For that though - imo anyway - they need longer trains, 8/9 car XC Voyager services are already rammed far too often. But that's a topic for another occasion.

 

[Fokx]

RTT says DMUs (unless they're moving after December?).

It’s both.

50% 68’s. 50% 2x 185
The 185 timings are used for the purpose of clockface timetabling

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2022 ==

Poor Scarborough still stuck with half of its services shuttling to York and back. If it’s a 68 loco pulling that then it’s a criminal waste of a powerful beast!

They’ll most likely do both. I’ve not looked at the times because It’s not one of my routes but you could have a situation where the train does Manchester - Scarb - York - Scarb - Manchester for example with some stabling at Scarb (just like now)

Also, if there’s a stopper running from Leeds to Huddersfield and a stopper running from Huddersfield to Manchester, could they be joined up?

It just doesn’t work in the daytime.
Reliability massively drops and the daytime stoppers are crewed by different depots such as Newcastle having trips on the Leeds end and Sheffield currently on the Manchester end. (Evening and Sundays will predictably be largely Manchester and York depot, similar to how they currently operate now)

You’ve then got to count in the Liverpool crew hours, the ale trail and the route closures for TPRU

 

[387star]

With GWR does the new 0450 Fratton to Gloucester remain?

And are TL axing the Littlehampton route?

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Which is the answer - the provision for 2tph to Buxton.

Does this mean passengers travelling to Hazel Grove in a much newer cleaner quieter 331 will now be travelling in shorter Class 150's?

 

[Some guy]

TPE timetable is unachievable without a Rest Day Working deal in place.

Maybe when the government hand the keys back to first group they might manage to get an agreement in place

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Over the vast majority of it, but not a substantial amount of 125, varies between the existing 110 with sections of 115, 120 and 125.

Has any work been done on re-signing the route south of Weaver Jn?
It will be quite tricky doing that while there is a mix of 221 and 80x running on the route.
Presumably the lower (221) EPS speed, where the splits exist, will be eliminated.
Then there's the 80x training requirement draining available Avanti resources even more.