But those southbound services will both stop at Macclesfield and Stoke - so the only stations which could benefit would be Kidsgrove and Congleton where people would travel *towards* Manchester to then pick up the southbound London / Birmingham services..... not sure that makes a whole lot of sense ?
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December 2022 Timetable Changes
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But those southbound services will both stop at Macclesfield and Stoke - so the only stations which could benefit would be Kidsgrove and Congleton where people would travel *towards* Manchester to then pick up the southbound London / Birmingham services..... not sure that makes a whole lot of sense ?
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jamieintercity
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Cross country appears to have gone backwards from December by removing a evening train to and from Aberdeen (1S45 from Plymouth and 1B61 to Edinburgh), leaving just a early morning train from dundee and 1V60 to Plymouth. The fife stops have not been restored.
Don't see any changes to scotrail services mainly from the central belt to Inverness and Aberdeen areas
Don't see any changes to scotrail services mainly from the central belt to Inverness and Aberdeen areas
James90012
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I've never noticed how badly the Windermere services have it finding a joined up path on the WCML - this one sits outside Oxenholme for 24 (!) minutes!
Realtime Trains | 1C72 1429 Manchester Airport to Windermere | 21/12/2022
Real-time train running information for 1C72 1429 departure from Manchester Airport to Windermere on 21/12/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I've never noticed how badly the Windermere services have it finding a joined up path on the WCML - this one sits outside Oxenholme for 24 (!) minutes!
Realtime Trains | 1C72 1429 Manchester Airport to Windermere | 21/12/2022
Real-time train running information for 1C72 1429 departure from Manchester Airport to Windermere on 21/12/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
Presumably that one only runs because it has to to replace the unit that's come off the branch. I doubt any journey planners show it, but rather show the overtaking TPE with a connection.
There won't be an advertised connection in that hour.
No Grand Central yet on RTT either.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I think it will be but TPE and Avanti aren't loaded yet so I can't tell.
Still several trains not stopping at Brockenhurst. I think we can assume this is now permanent.
Is it wise to assume that a train is being withdrawn at this point, when most of the data isn't available?
Goldfish62
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Covid is permanent as far as Cross Country are concerned.
I'm not sure what you mean. The unit that is coming off the branch has to wait for 18 minutes in platform 3 at Oxenholme Lake District before it can get a slot to depart towards Lancaster. That is why the Windermere bound service has to wait outside the station for almost half an hour.
berneyarms
Established Member
Quite. I wouldn’t assume anything until the printed pdf timetables appear.
Things can and do change in the interim.
Greybeard33
Established Member
A case of back to future! The wires to Hazel Grove were hardly used for many years prior to Blackpool electrification.
The new timetable gives Hazel Grove a half hourly service from Piccadilly instead of the current 20/40 minutes intervals. All services will be to/from the Picc main shed, instead of split between the main shed and P13/14. So hardly a backward step from the point of view of Hazel Grove - Manchester passengers.
It will also be possible to extend the Hazel Grove terminator to Buxton in a future timetable change, restoring the pre-Covid frequency on the Buxton line.
Peregrine 4903
Established Member
True but the original timetable would have been even more controversial.
The North Downs is continuing with the timetable set up for the introduction of 3tph. Unless this is back on the agenda (which I doubt) the timetable is less than optimal. Perhaps there will be a reversion to the old steady as you go, proven timetable next May instead?
Also (and I appreciate not all trains may be showing at the moment) there is still no sign of the 22:3x departure from Reading being restored, leaving a two-hour service gap from Reading to the Blackwater Valley conurbation (pop. 270,000), Guildford and points east. Since this service disappeared from the schedule I've significantly reduced my use of the line (no more going to evening football matches or socialising in Reading for me) and I know for certain this is causing problem for others e.g. a lass who works evenings in central Reading has had to cut her hours to get the 22:12 SWR train from Reading to Wokingham, where her hubby is waiting to drive her home, instead.
Also (and I appreciate not all trains may be showing at the moment) there is still no sign of the 22:3x departure from Reading being restored, leaving a two-hour service gap from Reading to the Blackwater Valley conurbation (pop. 270,000), Guildford and points east. Since this service disappeared from the schedule I've significantly reduced my use of the line (no more going to evening football matches or socialising in Reading for me) and I know for certain this is causing problem for others e.g. a lass who works evenings in central Reading has had to cut her hours to get the 22:12 SWR train from Reading to Wokingham, where her hubby is waiting to drive her home, instead.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Does an Avanti or TPE that calls at Oxenholme not pass it while it's sat there in the loop? (Having been on the one that does that for 10 minutes it is a loop, not the WCML). If it does, then planning a journey from Preston will put you on that instead of the direct service.
If it's that hard to path I'd knock that one out as a through run and make it a Barrow. It presently sits there 10 minutes which is bad enough, but this is useless - presumably the extra 20ish from the time gained by running via Bolton.
Glenn1969
Established Member
I note that the last 2 Calder Valley trains towards Leeds are through trains from December. Is there overnight engineering going on that would affect use of the bays late at night at Man Vic ?
I can tell you now that it doesn't connect.
Yes, it does (just about). But it's pretty much simultaneous arrivals and departures from Oxenholme.
You wouldn't really want it any other way - you'd be needlessly overloading the following TPE/Avanti service whilst the Northern would be carting around fresh air.
Unfortunately this is one of the side effects of MRTF developing a timetable for the Preston-Manchester Airport area virtually independently of everything else. The outcome hasn't been pretty.
Going via Bolton saves some time, but nowhere close to 20 minutes. It's more like 3 or 4 minutes, assuming an equivalent number of calls.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Which as it can't be anything other than cross platform would probably work fine. I guess one of those you've got to know, a bit like the Ormskirk-Blackpool South "one minute connection" that is actually a through train (no longer one from Dec).
I wouldn't bank on it. Any slight delay and you're scuppered.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Not really scuppered, though there would be a risk of a one hour wait or having to walk into town (or for a bus if going to Windermere). No Delay Repay of course.
In a sensible world it'd be a both-ways connection!
It depends how well both perform, but on average I reckon it'd connect more often than it'd miss, so if you're trading a possible one hour delay for a definite half hour one I'm for the former!
Minstral25
Established Member
I think removal of the late train is because it used to stay at Redhill overnight and they have decided to only outstay a single unit.
I recall reading that the later train that stays overnight has a driver (full crew?) sitting with it all night as they do not have any drivers to start the service at the Redhill end. Two crews overnighting would probably be too expensive.
If you did that, you wouldn't have any through services between Windermere and Manchester at all, because they're all like that!
In the first pair, the 0829 waits 13 minutes at Preston and a further 2 minutes before Oxenholme Lake District. The 0955 from Windermere waits 17 minutes at Lancaster.
In the second pair, the 1129 from Manchester Airport waits 10 minutes at Preston and 12 minutes outside Oxenholme Lake District. The 1307 from Windermere gets incredibly lucky and only waits 5 minutes at Lancaster and 3 minutes at Preston.
The next pair we've just described.
For the final pair, the 1729 from Manchester Airport waits 9 minutes at Preston and 2 minutes outside Oxenholme Lake District. The 1856 from Windermere waits at Preston for 17 minutes.
The extra 15-20 minutes sitting around on nearly all services isn't because time has been saved running via Bolton either, it's between timings between Manchester Airport and Preston which have been agreed cross-industry as part of the Taskforce are simply never going to marry up perfectly with the very few slots between Lancaster and Oxenholme Lake District to which Northern have rights. Northern have next to no chance of more or better slots on this section because of Avanti West Coast and TransPennine Express blocking paths while failing to actually run the trains in them, and more importantly the interests of the FOCs. The fact that the branch is one train working and there's not a second platform at Oxenholme Lake District which can access it also means that only a perfect exchange is possible i.e. the two services need to be passing each other 2 minutes south of Oxenholme Lake District. This is simply never going to be possible with the through running beyond Preston.
Abandoning through running to Windermere is something I've been in favour of for quite some time, though. It might be possible to have more through between Preston and Windermere ar half decent journey times, plus of course the first one to Windermere and the last one from Windermere are actually quick. I have made it no secret that if it were up to me I would have an hourly Manchester Airport - Lancaster EMU and hourly Preston - Barrow-in-Furness DMU. Windermere - Lancaster services could then run ad-hoc.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Though none of them quite as bad.
Is the reason for this inconsistency the different freight paths? It seems odd that on a route that basically has a clockface passenger service for everything else that this can't be pathed clockface.
That one then
Abandoning it and planning it to connect both ways with the Manchester TPEs may be the way to go, but if a Preston service could be pathed would it perhaps be better for it to await the difference between that and the path via Bolton at Preston P5/6 with the doors open and with other connections available, rather than in a rather useless siding north of Lancaster? That's for instance how the Euston-Brum-Scotland is pathed - southbound it waits at Wolves for 20 minutes as the paths don't quite match up, which is sort of OK as if you're in a hurry to get to Brum you can change there.
Alternatively just send them all to Barrow and run decent connections from Lancaster, which presumably could run from the Platform 2 bay hourly using two 3 car units and so sit there until there's a path where it could more or less go straight onto the branch?
northwichcat
Veteran Member
A large proportion of the Northern complimentary tickets issued for delays get used on trips to Windermere. There's sometimes somebody from South Lakes RUG on the trains to/from Manchester trying to find out how many of the passengers are using one of these and consequently not being recorded in ticket selling stats.
The restoration of the 2tph Liverpool-Wigan stoppers are great to see!
So making Liverpool to Huyton 4tph, and intermediate stations on that City Line section 3tph, much better timetable pattern too!
It looks like Liverpool-Warrington Bank Quay services have disappeared (for good)? Apart from one return trip to Ellesmere Port.
Earlestown-Warrington Bank Quay used to be signed by nearly everyone at Lime Street, but now there’s only very little work outside of Link 1 (drivers anyway) so not nearly enough to get everyone trained for December.
If there was a service to go, I’d say it’s a good decision to see that go, it’d be nice to it to reappear but I doubt it!
So making Liverpool to Huyton 4tph, and intermediate stations on that City Line section 3tph, much better timetable pattern too!
It looks like Liverpool-Warrington Bank Quay services have disappeared (for good)? Apart from one return trip to Ellesmere Port.
Earlestown-Warrington Bank Quay used to be signed by nearly everyone at Lime Street, but now there’s only very little work outside of Link 1 (drivers anyway) so not nearly enough to get everyone trained for December.
If there was a service to go, I’d say it’s a good decision to see that go, it’d be nice to it to reappear but I doubt it!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Presumably that now means the west to south platform at Earlestown is Parly only, i.e. only served by the Ellesmere Port round trip DMU?
Yep, from December that will be the case!
At the moment there are a few more, 1400 ex-Lime Street and 1511 and 1911 ex-Warrington Bank Quay, which comes ECS from Preston.
The 1400 round trip has often terminated at Earlestown anyway as the driver has no route knowledge Earlestown-Warrington Bank Quay.
Saturdays there’s 0803/0911 return which seems to run very reliably!
At the moment there are a few more, 1400 ex-Lime Street and 1511 and 1911 ex-Warrington Bank Quay, which comes ECS from Preston.
The 1400 round trip has often terminated at Earlestown anyway as the driver has no route knowledge Earlestown-Warrington Bank Quay.
Saturdays there’s 0803/0911 return which seems to run very reliably!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I see, as an aside, that Earlestown's south entrance still has the quirk of the incorrect sign!
www.google.com
The wrong "M" is used - it's a WYPTE "M" but in yellow and grey, not the "upside down W" M of Merseytravel.
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The wrong "M" is used - it's a WYPTE "M" but in yellow and grey, not the "upside down W" M of Merseytravel.
Can't see the lack of a bay platform would make any difference as trains are usually platform 3–6 around this time???
The 22:57 continues to start at Man Vic, so I presume that you mean the one before and the one after?
There appears to be a brand new 21:44 from Wigan Wallgate, 22:30 departure from Man. Vic. but this runs semi-fast into Leeds, missing most stations, and non-stop from Bradford. Saturdays five minutes later and non-stop from Hebden Bridge!
The last journey from Chester and the last to Leeds (Mondays to Fridays only!) rather than timed to arrive and depart at the same time are run as a through train, timed slightly later.
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