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Death Penalty Debate

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ralphchadkirk

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How do you know he was successfully rehabilitated

Because he hasn't committed a crime since. His solicitor remains friends with him, and whilst will not reveal any details, says he has settled down once. The media would seize on any chance to expose them if they had done something as minor as dropping litter. They are conspicuous by their silence.
 
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strange6

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Ultimately we can never have the death penalty until trial by media is exterminated once and for all. Ralph's point about one of Bulger's killers being successfully rehabilitated is a good one but one completely discarded by the media

Yes, but you have no proof that he has been rehabilitated. The authorities tend to keep these things hushed-up unless something comes out in the press
 

Hydro

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Education would be more suited to young offenders in prison for minor crimes, trying to nip them in the bud with training and education before they get sucked into the lifestyle. There's no sense in trying to educate and reform the likes of a career drug kingpin, Ian Huntley or Harold Shipman (before he decided to see if he matched the curtains).

Robbing off licences and stealing cars is likely to have some environmental and social depth that can be rehabilitated out of the offender, but murdering two schoolgirls or methodically administering overdoses to the elderly in their hundreds? That's sociopathic.

The Bulger case is horrifically unique and cannot be answered by simply saying two ten year olds should be sentenced to hang on their 18th birthday after the cake and jelly. In my mind, the likes of Thompson and Venables would never have left secure facilities for the rest of their lives, be it special schools, detention centres and more than likely Broadmoor.
 

ralphchadkirk

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Yes, but you have no proof that he has been rehabilitated. The authorities tend to keep these things hushed-up unless something comes out in the press

As I said, the media have their sources (as seen with them paying off the police). ANY crime they had committed would be widely reported (as we have already seen). It therefore stands to reason that the rehabilitation, support and education that he had in the secure children's unit was successful. Sadly it was not for Venables.

Was justice done in the Bulger case? Partly I think. It has proved successful for one. In my opinion however, they were released too early. They should have spent some more time being treated.
 

Greenback

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But the awful crimes are being committed more often because those that do it, smile at the authority because they know in prison its an easier life and they will be talked about in the media for years to come and then they can be let and they can do it again.

Yes, that is the point I was getting at in my earlier post. For some inmates life inside is preferable (for whatever reason) to life outside. But that doesn't necessarily mean that life inside is easy.

Having said that, an acquaintance of mine has doen time in an open prison. He said that it was a cushy number, although how much of that was bravado I couldn't say. But there is certainly an arguable case both for and against open prisons.

The biggest argument against capital punishment is a miscarriage of justice. Supporters have to accept that it's likely there will be occasional 'mistakes' made.
 

GB

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It was a truly horrific case, one that everyone clearly remembers. If their (new) names ever became public, they would have a mob attack them very soon.

I and many others believe that justice was not carried out in that case.

I wouldn't have had the death penalty enforced, just a far, far longer sentence in a real prison once they reached adulthood.

Fair enough one of them has been rehabilitated, but that shouldn't detract too much from the heinous crime.

Completely agree.
 

SS4

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Yes, but you have no proof that he has been rehabilitated. The authorities tend to keep these things hushed-up unless something comes out in the press

The lack of press coverage is conspicuous in itself. The balance of probabilities would therefore suggest that he has been successfully rehabilitated.
 

ralphchadkirk

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There's no sense in trying to educate and reform the likes of a career drug kingpin, Ian Huntley or Harold Shipman (before he decided to see if he matched the curtains).

Good point. Harold Shipman should have gone to Rampton. He should not have been sent to a conventional prison. He should have been on a permanent suicide watch as it is clear that he had some form of controlling-God-complex, of which, the only way for him to remain in control in prison is to take his own life. We were playing into his hands there, as galling as it is.
 

thefab444

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Of course, the last holiday I went to was an imposing high security building. As part of the package we were all searched many time during the stay. Once a week the cells were ripped apart to look for contraband. On this holiday, to get to anywhere you had to be accompanied and taken through many locked doors. Whatsmore, on this holiday you were all locked up for 23 hours a day. Of course it's not like a holiday. :roll:

Sounds like you stayed at Butlins!
 

Hydro

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He should have been on a permanent suicide watch as it is clear that he had some form of controlling-God-complex, of which, the only way for him to remain in control in prison is to take his own life. We were playing into his hands there, as galling as it is.


As we would executing fanatical terrorists, who want to be seen as martyrs, and welcome death.
 

ainsworth74

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I don't suppose you have thought past those you have mention, like the two that murdered in cold blood Jamie Bulger, did helping them with education etc help them adjust from being murders.
These people are the ones that should be given the death penalty.

You avoided answering GB so I'm going to ask you myself. Are you actually suggesting that 10 year old children be sentenced to death? Not even China does that...
 

newbie babs

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ralphchadkirk

On 2 March 2010, the Ministry of Justice revealed that Jon Venables had been returned to prison for an unspecified violation of the terms of his licence

Yes the rehabilitation worked then

So how do you know the other one is an angel
 

SS4

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So how do you know the other one is an angel

We can't know but because nothing has been reported it makes it extremely likely it has worked since the media would be on him like flies on **** if he put a toe wrong
 

ralphchadkirk

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So how do you know the other one is an angel

Because the Ministry of Justice have not said anything about him. Given that they reported the other had been sent back to prison, there is no reason to jot report it for the other one. As I, and others, have said repeatedly, it is obvious that the rehabilitation worked.

You seem to be intent on starting arguments rather than reading what people have written. I would very much like to see your answer to this post: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=760157&postcount=41
 

newbie babs

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I am not intent on starting arguments just having a debate or do you not want to debate it.

and I don`t shy away about answering anything

Yes I would have given the death penalty, as a mother and a woman if someone who had done the horrific things that child had done to him, then without a doubt I would have.

At 10 they know right from wrong , those two that now have a lovely life took a child`s from him, where is the justice for the child that died,to give them rehabilitation seems not enough.
How did they deserve just that, for cold blooded murder

If you are a father and someone did that to your children would you go "rehabilitation" that would be the justice for them.
 

Greenback

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ralphchadkirk

On 2 March 2010, the Ministry of Justice revealed that Jon Venables had been returned to prison for an unspecified violation of the terms of his licence

Yes the rehabilitation worked then

So how do you know the other one is an angel

Does rehabilitation only work if you turn into an angel then? Clearly, if the other one had committed any sort of crime, or even been suspected of one, he would have been back inside like Venables. And plastered over every paper in the country, like Venables.
 

Hydro

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As callous as it sounds, emotion has no place in deciding the letter of law and punishment, so there's no mileage in putting someone in the shoes of a parent with a dead child.
 

ralphchadkirk

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Someone at 10 should know right from wrong. But whether they can fully comprehend their actions is debatable.

Luckily we do not live in an eye-for-an-eye society.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As callous as it sounds, emotion has no place in deciding the letter of law and punishment, so there's no mileage in putting someone in the shoes of a parent with a dead child.

Thirded. Cases should be decided on the facts and the law alone. Certainly not emotion.
 

DaveNewcastle

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Mosts of the posts on this thread have, quite understandably, focussed on the role of a Sentence in 'punishing' a convicted offender; all of theis leading, equaly understandably to the concerns about mistaken convictions and prisoners' re-habilitation.

However, there are other roles which Sentencing fulfills (or partly fulfills):
As a Deterrence to comitting the offence.
As a recompense to the victims.
To protect society at large from Convicted persons (if imprisoned or executed).
To re-habilitate and/or educate the Convicted persons.

Perhaps the Deterrence is the strongest and often under-appreciated (since society also uses its own regulatory behaviours to treat certain unwanted behavious as abnormal). The effect of Deterrence in Sentencing is illustrated in this thought-experiment:
"Imagine that the Sentencing Tarrifs were reversed, so that the most lenient of Sentences were applied to the most severe but rare crimes and the most severe Sentences were applied to the most trivial but frequent and socially disruptive crimes. eg A minor fine for murder and the Death Sentence for a Parking violation."
The argument goes that Murder is usually committed under such extremes of overwhelming emotional impetus that a consideration of the likely Sentence (the Deterrent) is hardly likely to influence the outcome, whereas double parking is so easily avoided and open to reflection beforehand, that the Death Sentence is likely to be a very effective Deterrent. See Rummel vs Estelle - US Supreme Court.

Please, don't get bogged down in the details of applying the thought-experiment, its simply intended to help us to evaluate these various roles that Sentencing offers a society from a broader and wider viewpoint before we do what lawmakers usually do - before we make more laws merely as a reaction against a the details of the previously introduced law.
 
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newbie babs

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Ok I understand that SS4 and Hydro

As a parent you worry about your children and you want secure laws so those who have committed heinous crimes don`t get to do it again.
 

45rpm

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Even if the murderers of James Bulger feel remorse & never commit any other crimes the fact remains that James Bulger can NEVER be brought back to life because of their actions. For that reason they deserve the strongest punishment possible;if not execution then LIFE in prison. Their age is no defence;by the time I was 10 years old I knew that murdering a fellow human being was wrong.
 

WestCoast

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Even if the murderers of James Bulger feel remorse & never commit any other crimes the fact remains that James Bulger can NEVER be brought back to life because of their actions. For that reason they deserve the strongest punishment possible;if not execution then LIFE in prison. Their age is no defence;by the time I was 10 years old I knew that murdering a fellow human being was wrong.

People complain that prisoners cost the tax payer. for those two I think it would be well worth it for them to have been sent to an adult prison for a considerable length of time, when they reached the age of 18.

From what has been said, they "served time" in a children's unit, where they had a fairly OK bringing up, with days out and with (limited) access to TV and games consoles. I object to that.

They denied a young child a life, they should be a denied a free life. The death penalty is still not appropriate though.
 

ralphchadkirk

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What would imprisoning children in an adult setting achieve other than creating more mental health problems to sort out in the future.
 

Hydro

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As a parent you worry about your children and you want secure laws so those who have committed heinous crimes don't get to do it again.


That's perfectly understandable. From the circle of people around me, friends and family, the most outspoken of those for things such as the death penalty do tend to be parents, especially during periods of high profile media coverage.

It does show however that the emotional buttons are being pressed, and I have to be honest, some of the reactions (especially on Facebook, which makes me despair sometimes) are utterly irrational; and it's things like that that lead to paediatricians being attacked, to coin an infamous incident.

I personally believe that the death penalty is too focused on an act of retribution, rather than an act of justice and deterrence. As DaveNewcastle said, murders are generally committed in such a state of mental imbalance that a penalty of death won't really be much of a deterrent at that end of the scale.
 

45rpm

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Without wishing to put words into anyone`s mouth,I`d be interested to hear the viewpoint of someone who has had a family member/close friend murdered. I haven`t so I can`t express an opinion from that side of things. Maybe they would feel able to forgive the felon;maybe they would prefer incarceration to execution. Like I said,I`d just like to hear the opinions of someone with a more direct experience.
 

SS4

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Wouldn't locking children up with adults cause them to need even more protection? At 10 the brain is still developing so one could only imagine the effect of having prisoner mentality put in someone's developing brain
 

WestCoast

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What would imprisoning children in an adult setting achieve other than creating more mental health problems to sort out in the future.

To clarify, when they reached adulthood.

From the sounds of these childrens' units, they aren't proper prisons. So, really, they didn't do "time".
 

ralphchadkirk

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Without wishing to put words into anyone's mouth,I'd be interested to hear the viewpoint of someone who has had a family member/close friend murdered. I haven't so I can't express an opinion from that side of things. Maybe they would feel able to forgive the felon;maybe they would prefer incarceration to execution. Like I said,I'd just like to hear the opinions of someone with a more direct experience.

A close member of my family was the victim of a truly awful crime. It was not murder, but it was up there with the "big ones". I do not wish to go into any detail, but despite a police investigation no trial could be brought as vital evidence had disappeared, as is natural in these cases, and could not be recovered. I know who the perpetrator was. Do I want him killed? No. Do I want an eye-for-an-eye punishment? No.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To clarify, when they reached adulthood.

From the sounds of these childrens' units, they aren't proper prisons.

They are as prision-y as you can get for children. The sister unit of the one that they were held in was featured on a recent BBC3 documentary (the name escapes me).
 
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