DCEMUs not AC convertible

[Mordac]

I've been trying to work out which DC EMUs aren't prepared to be converted to AC. I've made the following list, please let me know if I've either missed anything or included anything that doesn't belong:

442
455
456
458 531-536 (thanks hwl)
465
466
507
508

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Of course for completeness might as well add 483s and Tyne and Wear stock (I know it's Panto and not 3rd rail).

Thanks

EDIT: Just thought I might add that my interest in this is to work out which ones can be cascaded away to AC areas (possibly only likely to happen to the 46x) and which are destined to meet the cutters torch is no DC work can be found for them (please, no suggestions of loco-haulage ).

 

[hwl]

And 458531-536 as they are ex 460 and have no pantograph wells.

As there will be a surplus of AC units soon very unlikely any conversion apart from desiro or electrostar family units in the very longer term.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Could the ex-460s get pan wells installed without compromising the crash structure?

 

[The Ham]

I've been trying to work out which DC EMUs aren't prepared to be converted to AC. ...:

442...

There will be some on here who would suggest that the lack of current preparations is an oversight and that it is only a matter of time before they are converted (although probably less now that GA are releasing a lot of AC trains).

 

[Deepgreen]

I've been trying to work out which DC EMUs aren't prepared to be converted to AC. I've made the following list, please let me know if I've either missed anything or included anything that doesn't belong:

442
455
456
465
466
507
508

----------
Of course for completeness might as well add 483s and Tyne and Wear stock (I know it's Panto and not 3rd rail).

Thanks

EDIT: Just thought I might add that my interest in this is to work out which ones can be cascaded away to AC areas (possibly only likely to happen to the 46x) and which are destined to meet the cutters torch is no DC work can be found for them (please, no suggestions of loco-haulage ).

313s? Plus, for ultra-completeness - 4VEP 3417!

 

[swt_passenger]

Could the ex-460s get pan wells installed without compromising the crash structure?

I'm sure you've asked this before; and hadn't it been deemed theoretically possible but completely unlikely, because there'll always be enough DC running available to avoid the need?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

313s?

All 313s are dual voltage aren't they, although Southerns are not fitted with pans at the moment, they had them when with LO.

 

[ac6000cw]

All 313s are dual voltage aren't they, although Southerns are not fitted with pans at the moment, they had them when with LO.

Yes, they are/were (designed for the GN inner-suburban services originally, which uses 3rd-rail for the Moorgate branch).

I think the 507s/508s (given their age) are likely to be scrapped rather than have an expensive conversion.

 

[Deepgreen]

I'm sure you've asked this before; and hadn't it been deemed theoretically possible but completely unlikely, because there'll always be enough DC running available to avoid the need?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



All 313s are dual voltage aren't they, although Southerns are not fitted with pans at the moment, they had them when with LO.

Yes - I wasn't sure, hence the "?"

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Could the ex-460s get pan wells installed without compromising the crash structure?

It might be possible, as they are part of Alstom's Juniper platform so similar to the original 458s and the Scotrail 334s. I'd always thought that the 460s DID have wells, but they were plated over- apparently not though. Given the many quirks of the post-privatisation Alstom units, converting even the original 458s might be more problematic than one might think.

 

[Mordac]

I think the 507s/508s (given their age) are likely to be scrapped rather than have an expensive conversion.

Almost certainly, in fact I doubt any of the units listed will ever be converted, but those especially. Don't see any future for them once the replacements arrive.

 

[swt_passenger]

...Given the many quirks of the post-privatisation Alstom units, converting even the original 458s might be more problematic than one might think.

Certainly was the general opinion back in 2006 when they were expected to go off lease from SWT, before the sudden swap with the 442s.

Roger Ford ran an article in Modern Railways saying that converting them to AC had been looked at and found to be uneconomic, despite them being nominally DV convertible. They'd apparently been offered all over the place without success - mind you their basket case reliability might have been an issue too.

But as I've suggested in earlier threads about the 458s (now 458/5s) there is no conceivable reason why they shouldn't see out their life on either the SW network, (or somewhere else on the former Southern region) there's no way the entire Wessex area would ever become a completely AC system during their probable remaining life of about 20 years.

 

[Wolfie]

But as I've suggested in earlier threads about the 458s (now 458/5s) there is no conceivable reason why they shouldn't see out their life on either the SW network, (or somewhere else on the former Southern region) there's no way the entire Wessex area would ever become a completely AC system during their probable remaining life of about 20 years.

I fully agree and would bet that the buisiness case for converting the 460s to 458/5s was based on exactly this (ie keep 458s running on DC third rail and convert 450s and 444s to AC OHE if infrastructure developments result in any such conversion being merited).

313s? Plus, for ultra-completeness - 4VEP 3417!

my bold

Really? They are (or in the case of the Southern operated ones perhaps were but could presumably be converted back) dual-voltage stock!

 

[Julia]

I guess we can also toss in the preserved SUB and a few departmental units?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

What about SouthEastern's Class 375/3, 375/7, 375/8 and 375/9 on the basis of cost? The 375/6's have pans but they have rarely ever been used and probably unlikely never to be used.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

It might be possible, as they are part of Alstom's Juniper platform so similar to the original 458s and the Scotrail 334s. I'd always thought that the 460s DID have wells, but they were plated over- apparently not though. Given the many quirks of the post-privatisation Alstom units, converting even the original 458s might be more problematic than one might think.

Just watched a vid of an unconverted one, couldn't spot anything that would indicate something had been plated over

 

[D365]

What about SouthEastern's Class 375/3, 375/7, 375/8 and 375/9 on the basis of cost? The 375/6's have pans but they have rarely ever been used and probably unlikely never to be used.

"unlikely never to be used" would imply that their AC capability will be made use of.

And I think you're missing the point, as it is possible for a Class 375 unit to be converted without significant structural modification.

 

[43096]

It might be possible, as they are part of Alstom's Juniper platform so similar to the original 458s and the Scotrail 334s. I'd always thought that the 460s DID have wells, but they were plated over- apparently not though. Given the many quirks of the post-privatisation Alstom units, converting even the original 458s might be more problematic than one might think.

I believe a 458 to AC conversion would now be very difficult / almost impossible as the TMS software was re-written for the 458/5 project and that removed the AC functionality as it wasn't needed. I must dig out the article in Modern Railways about them by Ian Walmsley as I think that's where I read it.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

507 could be converted given the unit heritage. After all, 313, 314 and 315 are same units but age related practicality precludes this.

Theres no reason why DC junipers couldnt be converted as modern trains are modular and share many components and build conditions. TMS can be reprogrammed, its a windows PC after all. Again tho practicality will no doubt preclude this.

Desiros and electrostars are also modular. Ease of conversion would be relatively straightforward. 450's are 350's with shoegear. 350's were built dual voltage. All the electrostars are numbered in the a/c range even tho they are SR based. Therefore the way is there but the will isnt. Not for now anyway

442's future lay in LHCS conversion. Not happening. Cost of AC conversion rules this out as a non starter especially as traction equipment is shagged. No future in the 442's unfortunately.

Gordon Petitt? Linda Lyminton-Flyer? The 5-BEL? A 73? You have got to be kidding! Theres enough spare 90's to not need to frankenstein a 73 with a pan! Besides, there are calls to restore 90 050, 45 015 and 87 101 first and they all need the 460 DVT's to work with them. Dont they deserve priority?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What's the approximate remaining lifespan of the 458s, assuming that there's always somewhere with 3rd rail that they can be used? I'd imagine that all the classes listed in the OP will be scrapped within the next 10-15 years with possibly the 442s being at the front of the queue for the scrapyard

 

[D365]

507 could be converted given the unit heritage. After all, 313, 314 and 315 are same units but age related practicality precludes this.

Why would there be any reason to convert a 507 when, if you wanted, a whole lot of 313s are soon to be replaced.

Theres no reason why DC junipers couldnt be converted as modern trains are modular and share many components and build conditions. TMS can be reprogrammed, its a windows PC after all. Again tho practicality will no doubt preclude this.

Except it's been established that the former Class 460 carriages are not suitable and are never likely to be. Also you're forgetting that there's far more safety cases to go through which makes rewriting TMS software very costly.

What's the approximate remaining lifespan of the 458s, assuming that there's always somewhere with 3rd rail that they can be used?

Bearing in mind that the Waterloo-Reading line has just been upgraded, I don't doubt that they may see out the rest of their working lives there.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If in the highly unlikely event of the Waterloo suburban network being converted to overhead while the 455s are still in use, the obvious thing to do would be to simply substitute them with all those very similar 321s being usurped from Anglia and Northern. Realistically though I think I'll be pushing up the daisies by the time Waterloo has knitting up!

 

[Mordac]

What about SouthEastern's Class 375/3, 375/7, 375/8 and 375/9 on the basis of cost? The 375/6's have pans but they have rarely ever been used and probably unlikely never to be used.

They're all build to be AC compatible though, and conversion wouldn't cost much.

 

[swt_passenger]

What's the approximate remaining lifespan of the 458s, assuming that there's always somewhere with 3rd rail that they can be used?

New to the network between 98 and 2000. (98-99 for ex 460 vehicles.) Assume a 40 year life typical for modern EMUs. So they are still well short of half life, and I'd expect to see them working around about 2040.

 

[edwin_m]

Anyone travelling on a 458 should be able to tell if it is convertible as there will be a lower ceiling at one end of one of the intermediate cars.

 

[jamez]

I can't see the 442's being scrapped, they are under 30 years old and scrapping them would be criminal. Still think it's possible SWT might have them back.

 

[swt_passenger]

I can't see the 442's being scrapped, they are under 30 years old and scrapping them would be criminal. Still think it's possible SWT might have them back.

I can see them definitely being scrapped. The secondhand traction equipment under them is about 50 years old now, and SWT will have their immediate capacity needs met by the internal cascades following the delivery of the 707s, which start arriving quite soon.

However there are other current threads about 442 withdrawal...

 

[edwin_m]

507 could be converted given the unit heritage. After all, 313, 314 and 315 are same units but age related practicality precludes this.

I doubt the 507/508 has a pantograph/transformer car, and it would take major structural changes to fit these to a car that wasn't designed to take them. I guess it might be possible to replace one car with the relevant one from a 313-315, but there's no reason to do this.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Anyone travelling on a 458 should be able to tell if it is convertible as there will be a lower ceiling at one end of one of the intermediate cars.

Or more simply, if the unit has one intermediate car with ribbon glazing it'll have a pan well. If all cars have ribbon glazing, it won't.

Theoretically all could be converted, but with the costs of making great structural changes to vehicles makes it unfavourable. If you threw enough money and engineering at it you could make an AC or DV 442. It'd just be very silly to do so.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Why would there be any reason to convert a 507 when, if you wanted, a whole lot of 313s are soon to be replaced.



Except it's been established that the former Class 460 carriages are not suitable and are never likely to be. Also you're forgetting that there's far more safety cases to go through which makes rewriting TMS software very costly.

I said could not will, I also said age related practicalities preclude this from happening. Theres no reason why this will happen as much as theoretically it could be done. Oh how I love this sites ability to take apart someones arguement even when someone is agreeing with the point being made.....

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Did the 458s with the pan wells have any of the interior wiring in place that would be needed or would that wiring have to be added if a conversion ever were to be done?