Daylight fare evasion

[Skymonster]

Interesting to note that on a trip from Sheffield to Scarborough yesterday we were ticket checked three times - once after leaving Meadowhall, once shortly before Hull and once again after leaving Hull (and each was a full inspection - none of this “tickets from… please” nonsense). The guy sat opposite miraculously seemed to manage to fall asleep just as the guard came through each time, was left undisurbed, and equally miraculously woke up again shortly after the guard had passed. With Sheffield and the stations north of Hull being unbarriered, I’d wage the passenger was ticketless Given his behaviour. Are guards not permitted to wake passengers these days?

 

[zero]

Interesting to note that on a trip from Sheffield to Scarborough yesterday we were ticket checked three times - once after leaving Meadowhall, once shortly before Hull and once again after leaving Hull (and each was a full inspection - none of this “tickets from… please” nonsense). The guy sat opposite miraculously seemed to manage to fall asleep just as the guard came through each time, was left undisurbed, and equally miraculously woke up again shortly after the guard had passed. With Sheffield and the stations north of Hull being unbarriered, I’d wage the passenger was ticketless Given his behaviour. Are guards not permitted to wake passengers these days?

I always have a ticket, but I just can't be bothered to get paper tickets out of my wallet if I can help it, or interrupt the book I'm reading on my phone and switch to the ticket app / screenshot.

When the guard comes around I simply don't react and half of the time they just skip me. Sometimes I pretend to be asleep. Occasionally I will get prodded awake if I'm sitting alone at a table, but if there are 2 or more strangers around me who eagerly show their tickets, it's as if I'm invisible.

Did Aberdeen to Kings Cross on LNER recently, almost all seats were taken with some standees. There were 3 ticket checks, I was at a window seat and didn't respond, so my ticket was only scanned at the Aberdeen barriers.

I'm actually slightly offended that 3 different train managers just ignored me when they announced it was a full check of everyone

 

[LowLevel]

Interesting to note that on a trip from Sheffield to Scarborough yesterday we were ticket checked three times - once after leaving Meadowhall, once shortly before Hull and once again after leaving Hull (and each was a full inspection - none of this “tickets from… please” nonsense). The guy sat opposite miraculously seemed to manage to fall asleep just as the guard came through each time, was left undisurbed, and equally miraculously woke up again shortly after the guard had passed. With Sheffield and the stations north of Hull being unbarriered, I’d wage the passenger was ticketless Given his behaviour. Are guards not permitted to wake passengers these days?

Depends if you want/have the means to deal with hassle. Usual method of escalation is talking, louder talking, gently touching arms/shoulder only at arm's length, then when you see the eyelids fluttering as they try their best to keep up the pretense, bang a t key on the window which creates a racket no one can ignore for long without reacting.

"Sorry, you weren't responding and I was checking your welfare. Tickets please."

I had a lovely game with a man a little while ago who kept trying the "sleeping" game as I passed. Rather than your usual "scrote", he was a well dressed businessman in a suit. I made a big show of chatting to the driver and not paying attention whilst changing ends at Sheffield and out of the corner of my eye saw him peeping out at me. I wandered into the cab as we had a few minutes and then grabbed my machine and tiptoed out.

Quelle surprise, narcolepsy kicked in as I entered the saloon so I just walked right up to him, announced "tickets please" whilst staring him out and what a surprise, he needed a ticket.

I smacked him for an anytime single which was somewhere north of £50 for a journey where if he had engaged with me during the check I might have let him off with a polite telling off for not buying at the station and done the super off peak for £20.

Funnily enough he looked very displeased and also didn't fall asleep again.

Much like those travellers whose desperate need for the toilet disappears once you've established they need to pay for their ticket as they cross you in the aisle and having grudgingly coughed up they suddenly forget entirely about their emergency call of nature and go and sit down.

"Tickets from" works on local trains or if you're gripping from every station and have a good mental map of who was where. Sometimes I get a dud shot and ask someone twice but generally I get most people. I always do a full check when taking over a train to get my bearings but after that I do "tickets from".

The exception pre COVID was the morning peak Liverpool - Manchester trains where I'd do tickets until I couldn't get through anymore then retreat, then make an announcement apologising for disturbing people twice but that there would be a full ticket check on leaving Stockport as I can't keep track of 500 odd people joining and leaving the train.

 

[Peter Sarf]

What do you suggest? How much additional resource would you commit and what would the payback be?

Well I would suggest that it is not just the actual fare evaded that is a cost. It is also the bad impression it gives to fare paying passengers - how many of those are there ?. There will be those passengers who wonder why they buy a ticket and there will be those who feel that the car is safer. I felt a bit of both. Then there is the further cost of any damage some fare dodgers are lilely to do. I doubt many vandals pay fares. I fdoubt many muggers pay fares.

I cannot put a figure on it but the railways need to think beyond the money they are losing directly to fare dodging. The railways need to think about the impression it gives to the customers that are fare paying - and any consequent lost revenue when those customers move to a different mode of transport.

 

[Skymonster]

Must admit I wonder why I bother buying a ticket sometimes. It was so blatant yesterday - the guy opposite had his head spinning like a radar until the guard entered the carriage each time, then all of a sudden he was asleep and was left undisturbed and unchallenged. Sadly though the serial chancers who work the system will often get away with it, while the honest punter who makes a genuine mistake may be penalised. It’s good there are diligent staff like @LowLevel who are prepared to do the job, but the fault yesterday was with the guard who couldn’t be bothered to be thorough. Had we paid more than a quid each way (thanks to Northern’s recent offer) I’d have felt more aggrieved.

 

[43066]

Depends if you want/have the means to deal with hassle. Usual method of escalation is talking, louder talking, gently touching arms/shoulder only at arm's length, then when you see the eyelids fluttering as they try their best to keep up the pretense, bang a t key on the window which creates a racket no one can ignore for long without reacting.

And of course this is a potential can of worms these days, especially in the male guard, lone intoxicated female passenger scenario. I suppose having witnesses and (hopefully) functioning CCTV both come in handy here.

 

[Undiscovered]

And of course this is a potential can of worms these days, especially in the male guard, lone intoxicated female passenger scenario. I suppose having witnesses and (hopefully) functioning CCTV both come in handy here.

There are two ways of going about this:
You loudly ask another member of the public to witness your actions as the passenger is unresponsive and you're concerned for their welfare or;
you call them out, loudly announce you're going to give them 20s to 'wake up', else you're calling for police and ambulance at the next station, as again you're concerned for their welfare, and not moving until they arrive.
If there are two people, travelling together, who are pretending to be asleep and ignoring a Tkey being banged about, i like to go into full 'disaster' mode, as two unconscious people means something is seriously amiss.

In these situations, many 'unconscious' passengers go on to make a miraculous recovery. Indeed, I feel I missed a calling as a doctor.

 

[nanstallon]

I am of the opinion that serious crimes are more likely to be commited by people who do not wish t buy a ticket. So it makes sense to be strict on minor things.

I agree it helps fare paying passengers feel self and less of a mug for paying. I have seen barriers jumped over at Purley - it made me feel that safety of passengers might not be that good.

I would not want to give a criminal record to someone who very occaisionally evades a fare - probably made a mistake or lost the ticket in reality. But repeat offenders or people who go to great lengths to evade a fare (jumping a fence or gate) should feel the weight of the law.

Broken window syndrome - an atmosphere of fare collection not being enforced leads to an atmosphere of general lawlessness and worse offences. Let's face it, the British (especially the youth) are not as well behaved or civic minded as our neighbours on the Continent.

 

[Starmill]

A properly effective revenue block is possible, if there's the will to actually do it. Metrolink used to do some good ones with Greater Manchester Police. Any of the aggressive types about their lack of having paid for their journey would frequently be asked to one side by the police and have been found to be someone of interest in an investigation and taken for questioning, or searched and found to be carrying a dangerous weapon. Plenty of people either charged with a crime as a result or given the £100 invoice for not paying - or both. They'd even have a pair of officers stationed around the corner, so anyone who just tried to sprint off would likely be apprehended. Even the hardiest of the lowlifes is unlikely to assault a member of tramway staff right in view of so many police officers too. The downside of such operations is their cost. Funding to involve the police more frequently can sometimes be useful.

 

[InOban]

The widespread use of body cameras must give staff more confidence in these confrontations.

 

[WesternBiker]

Let's face it, the British (especially the youth) are not as well behaved or civic minded as our neighbours on the Continent.

It is interesting how perceptions on this vary: my German friends think we are so much politer, and I was amazed once to be told by a party of visiting German diplomats that they were impressed how clean London was. Once my jaw had stopped dropping, I had quizzed them further, and it turned out that they were impressed by the relative lack of graffiti - especially on public transport (depots etc as well as the carriages). Having seen trains covered almost completely in graffiti on the continent, I can understand the perception. (Graffiti being a perfect example of broken window syndrome - as was famously identified in New York in the 1970s.)

 

[Nova1]

It is interesting how perceptions on this vary: my German friends think we are so much politer, and I was amazed once to be told by a party of visiting German diplomats that they were impressed how clean London was. Once my jaw had stopped dropping, I had quizzed them further, and it turned out that they were impressed by the relative lack of graffiti - especially on public transport (depots etc as well as the carriages). Having seen trains covered almost completely in graffiti on the continent, I can understand the perception. (Graffiti being a perfect example of broken window syndrome - as was famously identified in New York in the 1970s.)

Probably more to do with TFLs zero tolerance policy on sending units out with graffiti or vandalism

 

[WesternBiker]

Probably more to do with TFLs zero tolerance policy on sending units out with graffiti or vandalism

...which I think is a good idea, as it acts as a deterrent (to deny the graffiti vandals the public kudos / ego-trip they're looking for).

 

[30907]

It is interesting how perceptions on this vary: my German friends think we are so much politer, and I was amazed once to be told by a party of visiting German diplomats that they were impressed how clean London was. Once my jaw had stopped dropping, I had quizzed them further, and it turned out that they were impressed by the relative lack of graffiti - especially on public transport (depots etc as well as the carriages). Having seen trains covered almost completely in graffiti on the continent, I can understand the perception. (Graffiti being a perfect example of broken window syndrome - as was famously identified in New York in the 1970s.)

Quite so. The grass on the other side is also greener - is there any country where that doesn't apply? (I am a member of a German-language forum FYI)

 

[Gostav]

Quite so. The grass on the other side is also greener - is there any country where that doesn't apply? (I am a member of a German-language forum FYI)

I have no experience in Germany but in Czechia many tracks, sidings and yards are open and according to my observation only a few graffitis happened on passenger trains (take look the comments of some Czechia train graffiti videos on YouTube, most Czechs disapprove of this behavior) and the most are clean. However, the train company more distreesed about passengers stole beer glasses, cups and bags in the dinning car!

 

[Facing Back]

Good question - and I have no idea in terms of how the figure is calculated (likewise I have no idea how the RDG calculated their figure).

Being German, the procedure is incredibly organised and quite bureaucratic - see the official explanation here. (And, yes, it is in English on their website!) Of course you do not just need a ticket, it needs to be validated as well. Sometimes they'll let foreigners off in terms of the validation, particularly if you are coming from the airport (as I once was), but I've heard of other inspectors being stricter.

I've just been speaking to my German friend and mentioned this. Technically, you must have ID, but it is not compulsory to carry it with you. But you must provide it to authorities on request. German police have quite wide powers to ask for ID, and to detain someone until they produce valid ID, though my friend says this is rare, as most carry it habitually, as we might a drivers' licence, unless they're just popping to a local shop or the gym. Carrying it just avoids hassle if you are asked for it. I visit Berlin at least a couple of times a year, and I have only been asked for it a couple of times in 10 years.

The fine (see here - in English again!) for not possessing / presenting ID when required (section 1) is up to 5,000 Euro (section 32). I suspect the average fine is a lot less, but I don't know. That's a decent deterrent, though.

I'm in Berlin about 10 days a months. You have to have, but don't have to carry ID. The police can and will escort you to your home/hotel so you can show it to them. Failure to do that means you are calling the embassy from a police station.

To a previous post - sorry for dabbling - I asked my Berlin colleagues about some of the figures posted here of fare evasion. They agreed that they have on very rare occasions - like the expiration of a season ticket - missed a day whilst they sorted a new one, but in general thought the idea of travelling without a ticket was dishonest. To the high incidence of this, the parents in the room shook their heads - it is the middle class teenager's way of rebelling. Nobody in the room thought there was a pervasive criminal intent, although that is not a representative cross section of Berlin society.

 

[Nova1]

Just thought I'd throw my experience from the past week out there, I travel on the Snow Hill lines with West Midlands Railway

I travel on a mix of services through the week, first train, last train then peak time trains.
On peak time trains tickets are almost never checked, even if the train is only around half full with nobody standing.

I travelled this week on a weekly season ticket on a travelcard, and only had it checked twice (once the guard just looked at the smartcard and said "that's fine", the other guard bothered to scan the card). Both times my ticket was checked, it was on late evening services, and I wasn't asked for my railcard.

It does generally seem that WMRs view on fair evasion is fairly lax. Often people without tickets are simply offered the chance to buy a ticket. I've never seen any actual RPOs, nor have I ever seen a revenue block. I even once witnessed someone who didn't have a ticket be offered a ticket, then he ended up convincing the guard to sell him a child ticket...

 

[Kite159]

Just thought I'd throw my experience from the past week out there, I travel on the Snow Hill lines with West Midlands Railway

I travel on a mix of services through the week, first train, last train then peak time trains.
On peak time trains tickets are almost never checked, even if the train is only around half full with nobody standing.

I travelled this week on a weekly season ticket on a travelcard, and only had it checked twice (once the guard just looked at the smartcard and said "that's fine", the other guard bothered to scan the card). Both times my ticket was checked, it was on late evening services, and I wasn't asked for my railcard.

It does generally seem that WMRs view on fair evasion is fairly lax. Often people without tickets are simply offered the chance to buy a ticket. I've never seen any actual RPOs, nor have I ever seen a revenue block. I even once witnessed someone who didn't have a ticket be offered a ticket, then he ended up convincing the guard to sell him a child ticket...

Same with LNR, guard on the Crewe - London train caught a couple youngsters out boarding at Stafford heading towards Rugeley without tickets as they saw him at the front coach and did a big 180 to board at the next coach. Sadly he wasn't carrying a machine so couldn't sell them tickets.

Add on another youngster bragging about not buying tickets, carrys cash as a backup in case they get asked (boarded at Tamworth, headed to Nuneaton)

 

[MCSHF007]

No wonder patronage is declining in certain areas. Decent fare paying passengers do the right thing but their journeys are so often ruined by the scroats/oxygen wasters/scumbags who see "the railway" as fair game to thieve travel and act like c*nts totally ruining the journeys of those who actually pay their fare.

Sadly it won't ever change as the "yooman rights" leftie lawyers would be straight in to defend (or prevent deportation) of these low life scumbags.

 

[davews]

Looks like I started a hot thread..... On my original post I was amazed that the loons who jumped over the fence at Staines didn't at least wait until the train had cleared the platform and those leaving the train had made their way. It looks like they wanted to show all and sundry their deeds. The fence was far higher than those extended barriers shown up thread, I would have never attempted it, but they were a little younger.

As it happens, after travelling weeks on SWR trains with no sign of any ticket checks, on three of my latest four trips I was checked each time. Maybe they have increased checks as a result of these instances.

 

[py_megapixel]

No wonder patronage is declining in certain areas. Decent fare paying passengers do the right thing but their journeys are so often ruined by the scroats/oxygen wasters/scumbags who see "the railway" as fair game to thieve travel and act like c*nts totally ruining the journeys of those who actually pay their fare.

Sadly it won't ever change as the "yooman rights" leftie lawyers would be straight in to defend (or prevent deportation) of these low life scumbags.

What a stupid statement. Particularly the last part.

Fare evasion is unacceptable, but it doesn't mean the perpetrators are fundamentally bad people, especially when the railway so often likes to paint people who have just been confused by the ticketing system as fare evaders. Even among those who genuinely seek to avoid paying, if they are in a very tight spot financially it may be a choice between paying the fare and being able to eat that day. Which would you rather they did?

Taking the view that fare evaders are all lowlifes who take pride in defrauding train operators doesn't help with anything at all.

 

[Dai Corner]

What a stupid statement. Particularly the last part.

Fare evasion is unacceptable, but it doesn't mean the perpetrators are fundamentally bad people, especially when the railway so often likes to paint people who have just been confused by the ticketing system as fare evaders. Even among those who genuinely seek to avoid paying, if they are in a very tight spot financially it may be a choice between paying the fare and being able to eat that day. Which would you rather they did?

Taking the view that fare evaders are all lowlifes who take pride in defrauding train operators doesn't help with anything at all.

Do you think there should be a system to allow free train travel if a person is in a 'very tight spot financially'? Should it be funded by TOCs (effectively the DfT at the moment), the Department for Work & Pensions, or maybe a charity could be set up so people could donate to help out their fellow travellers?

 

[Ken H]

That does happen from time to time. I've seen sudden RPI and BTP swoops several times at Abbey Wood. I believe as well as fare evasion other offences are usually uncovered.

I was watching one of those police camera shows on telly a few years ago. Criminals involved in serious crime don't seem to avoid commiting minor crime at the same time, like traffic offences. Maybe ticket fraud is the same??

 

[GatwickDepress]

No wonder patronage is declining in certain areas. Decent fare paying passengers do the right thing but their journeys are so often ruined by the scroats/oxygen wasters/scumbags who see "the railway" as fair game to thieve travel and act like c*nts totally ruining the journeys of those who actually pay their fare.

Sadly it won't ever change as the "yooman rights" leftie lawyers would be straight in to defend (or prevent deportation) of these low life scumbags.

Goddamn leftie lawyers doing things like upholding human rights and listening to such namby-pamby metropolitan luvvy-liberal elite nonsense like a 'fair trial' and 'innocent until presumed guilty'. Plus all those fare-dodging immigrants; string 'em up - it's the only language they know!

 

[LowLevel]

I was watching one of those police camera shows on telly a few years ago. Criminals involved in serious crime don't seem to avoid commiting minor crime at the same time, like traffic offences. Maybe ticket fraud is the same??

Oh it is. A few times I've had some cocky scummer thinking they have the upper hand on me and then being surprised by the police and ending up being led away in handcuffs under arrest warrants. It's all you can do not to blow them a kiss on the way out.

 

[WesternBiker]

As it happens, after travelling weeks on SWR trains with no sign of any ticket checks, on three of my latest four trips I was checked each time. Maybe they have increased checks as a result of these instances.

On each of my journeys (going west) out of Wimbledon in the last few weeks, I have had my ticket checked on the train, and I’ve also been asked for my network railcard. There seemed to be very few checks during the height of the pandemic, but things seem to have changed now.

 

[Peter Sarf]

On each of my journeys (going west) out of Wimbledon in the last few weeks, I have had my check checked on the train, and I’ve also been asked for my network railcard. There seemed to be very few checks during the height of the pandemic, but things seem to have changed now.

I think there is similar for Gas and electricity.

But there are the serial evaders. Years ago I traveled to work with someone who NEVER had a ticket. They just paid up each time they were caught. They had no intention of buying a ticket and they earnt more than me. TBH they probably thought I was a mug.

 

[43066]

I was watching one of those police camera shows on telly a few years ago. Criminals involved in serious crime don't seem to avoid commiting minor crime at the same time, like traffic offences. Maybe ticket fraud is the same??

Oh it is. A few times I've had some cocky scummer thinking they have the upper hand on me and then being surprised by the police and ending up being led away in handcuffs under arrest warrants. It's all you can do not to blow them a kiss on the way out.

Strange, isn’t it?! Logically you’d think that people who were committing serious crime would do all they could to remain inconspicuous. From what I’ve been told the county lines drug runners are the same; often attracting attention to themselves by bunking fares, at the same time as carrying substantial amounts of “gear”.

 

[Turtle]

I think there is similar for Gas and electricity.

But there are the serial evaders. Years ago I traveled to work with someone who NEVER had a ticket. They just paid up each time they were caught. They had no intention of buying a ticket and they earnt more than me. TBH they probably thought I was a mug.

A very similar attitude applied among many staff of a large banking office where my wife worked in the the early 2000s.

 

[Bluejays]

Strange, isn’t it?! Logically you’d think that people who were committing serious crime would do all they could to remain inconspicuous. From what I’ve been told the county lines drug runners are the same; often attracting attention to themselves by bunking fares, at the same time as carrying substantial amounts of “gear”.

I suppose the reality is that many people doing bad things will have a ticket, and a veneer of respectability. So we would never know we'd had a wrong un on the train. While I'm always shocked at the county lines guys who don't have tickets, there is no way of us knowing what percentage of the total drugs runner population these idiots make up. Could just be the tip of a very big iceberh