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Daylight fare evasion

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al78

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No wonder patronage is declining in certain areas. Decent fare paying passengers do the right thing but their journeys are so often ruined by the scroats/oxygen wasters/scumbags who see "the railway" as fair game to thieve travel and act like c*nts totally ruining the journeys of those who actually pay their fare.

Sadly it won't ever change as the "yooman rights" leftie lawyers would be straight in to defend (or prevent deportation) of these low life scumbags.
That last sentence really doesn't do you any credit. It makes you sound like a right wing extremist who objects to human rights and thinks scroats/oxygen wasters/scumbags are immigrants. I recommend a six month break from the Daily Mail.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Do you think there should be a system to allow free train travel if a person is in a 'very tight spot financially'? Should it be funded by TOCs (effectively the DfT at the moment), the Department for Work & Pensions, or maybe a charity could be set up so people could donate to help out their fellow travellers?
You could eliminate fare evasion by making public transport free.

***Not a completely serious suggestion***
 
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WesternBiker

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I suppose the reality is that many people doing bad things will have a ticket, and a veneer of respectability. So we would never know we'd had a wrong un on the train. While I'm always shocked at the county lines guys who don't have tickets, there is no way of us knowing what percentage of the total drugs runner population these idiots make up. Could just be the tip of a very big iceberh
Agree completely. But the psychology of criminality is interesting (and of course a huge area of study - and in risk of getting off topic!). The motivation for some includes the 'thrill' of the chase - but not getting caught. (Just as the Gingerbread Man in the nursery story taunts his pursuers - some things really don't change...)

To get that thrill you need to take risks, but also retain a substantial belief that you are not going to get caught (which is why the deterrence effect of punishment is often over-rated). That's why a lot of graffiti 'artists' leave tags which technically can identify them.
 
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Agree completely. But the psychology of criminality is interesting (and of course a huge area of study - and in risk of getting off topic!). The motivation for some includes the 'thrill' of the chase - but not getting caught. (Just as the Gingerbread Man in the nursery story taunts his pursuers - some things really don't change...)

To get that thrill you need to take risks, but also retain a substantial belief that you are not going to get caught (which is why the deterrence effect of punishment is often over-rated). That's why a lot of graffiti 'artists' leave tags which technically can identify them.
With County Lines type crime, often the people involved are young people (children really) who have been groomed into it. They're recruited because they're vulnerable rather than smart, and they're being used so the real culprits stay away from the risky stuff. Rather than the street smart gangsters they probably think they are, they're usually not that sophisticated at all. Acting the tough guy and fare evading really blatantly is probably quite in character for some. Though it's also possible that their handlers don't care about them enough to pay their fares..

It's a really horrible business.
 
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WesternBiker

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With County Lines type crime, often the people involved are young people (children really) who have been groomed into it. They're recruited because they're vulnerable rather than smart, and they're being used so the real culprits stay away from the risky stuff.

It's a really horrible business.
I agree completely on the County Lines piece. Manipulative and exploitative.
 

30907

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I have no experience in Germany but in Czechia many tracks, sidings and yards are open and according to my observation only a few graffitis happened on passenger trains (take look the comments of some Czechia train graffiti videos on YouTube, most Czechs disapprove of this behavior) and the most are clean. However, the train company more distreesed about passengers stole beer glasses, cups and bags in the dinning car!
Apologies, I wasn't specifically talking about graffiti (or even fare evasion), more about the almost-universal view that other people's railways/countries/whatever are better than ours.
 

jon0844

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I was watching one of those police camera shows on telly a few years ago. Criminals involved in serious crime don't seem to avoid commiting minor crime at the same time, like traffic offences. Maybe ticket fraud is the same??

I do think it's naive to suggest that most fare evaders, even just some, are down on their luck and have to choose between a loaf of bread or travelling. I'd say it's a tiny percentage. However, I'd expect them not to be pushing through gatelines and jumping fences, while giving abuse to staff.

Police supported stings are almost always a huge success, so despite the cost I am amazed they don't happen more often. You literally have the criminals coming to you, so why would you just drive/walk around all day hoping to get lucky?

(I appreciate that there's all the paperwork once you arrest a load of people, and so there's often an incentive to not be too proactive)
 

py_megapixel

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Do you think there should be a system to allow free train travel if a person is in a 'very tight spot financially'? Should it be funded by TOCs (effectively the DfT at the moment), the Department for Work & Pensions, or maybe a charity could be set up so people could donate to help out their fellow travellers?
That could be done, but it wasn't the spirit of my post. I'm merely suggesting that it is, depending on who you ask, between disingenuous and outright offensive to dismiss anyone who has ever evaded a fare as an 'oxygen wasting scumbag'.

I've always paid, to the best of my knowledge, the appropriate fare for my journey, and I consider it more towards the 'disingenuous' end personally, but I assume you get the point.
 
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jon0844

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I think the 'more respectable' fare evaders have been short faring for the last year or two, so as to try and go undetected.

When onboard checks weren't happening this must have worked brilliantly.

Suffice to say that since checks have resumed and people have been caught with their purchase histories examined, there are already some examples of people being landed with bills of many thousands of pounds to settle out of court. I think Greater Anglia was the most recent example.
 

sciisfun

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A few years ago now, while getting some dinner in the Sainsbury's at paddington, I overheard a group of lads saying they would get on the train on platform 1 (no gates) then change at Reading for the train they wanted, didn't think any more about it till they were waiting for the same train as me at St Davids, bag of tinnies in hand. Mentioned it to the guard upon boarding, who asked how much they paid for the alcohol on the train. Cue them getting the receipt out, saying paddington on it, pretty sure he made a nice bit of commission on that!
 

Springs Branch

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One anecdote I remember reading - possibly somewhere on this forum and from a gentler age. . . .

The scene is late afternoon on a northbound inter-city train not long after departing London.
The guard is going through checking tickets.

Presently, she comes across a late middle-aged couple, looking for all the world like the prototype Bert and Ada returning home from a grand mini-break Down South. Tickets are proffered, which the guard checks.

Guard: "I'm sorry folks, these tickets are not valid on this train. I'm afraid I'll need to charge you extra".

The woman replies, unconvincingly in a gravelly northern accent, "No speaka dee Englisch".

Guard: "These are off-peak tickets. This is a peak hour train, you'll need to pay an excess".

Woman: "No comprendo".
Meanwhile, Bert looks sheepish, pulls down the brim of his flat cap and says nowt.

The guard sees this situation is getting nowhere, so pretends to examine the tickets again, then announces:
"I'm terribly sorry. I made a mistake. It's me that owes you money!"

Bert immediately perks up, grins and blurts out "Ooh do you! How much?"

Cue appearance of the Excess Fare pad and biro.


I don't know how true the story is, but having come across some cunning Preston-based crews, I wouldn't be surprised.
 

LowLevel

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One anecdote I remember reading - possibly somewhere on this forum and from a gentler age. . . .

The scene is late afternoon on a northbound inter-city train not long after departing London.
The guard is going through checking tickets.

Presently, she comes across a late middle-aged couple, looking for all the world like the prototype Bert and Ada returning home from a grand mini-break Down South. Tickets are proffered, which the guard checks.

Guard: "I'm sorry folks, these tickets are not valid on this train. I'm afraid I'll need to charge you extra".

The woman replies, unconvincingly in a gravelly northern accent, "No speaka dee Englisch".

Guard: "These are off-peak tickets. This is a peak hour train, you'll need to pay an excess".

Woman: "No comprendo".
Meanwhile, Bert looks sheepish, pulls down the brim of his flat cap and says nowt.

The guard sees this situation is getting nowhere, so pretends to examine the tickets again, then announces:
"I'm terribly sorry. I made a mistake. It's me that owes you money!"

Bert immediately perks up, grins and blurts out "Ooh do you! How much?"

Cue appearance of the Excess Fare pad and biro.


I don't know how true the story is, but having come across some cunning Preston-based crews, I wouldn't be surprised.

That's superb and puts me in mind of one of my favourite pieces of divine intervention I've experienced.

I picked up a pair of Eastern European gents in Lincolnshire one day. "No speak English". Got out Google translate and they were Lithuanian. Had a conversation which started with "our tickets are in our case and we are too tired to get them" and finished with "why are you still here?".

My next message was "I'm going to stop the train at the next station and call for the police" at which point the brakes went in unexpectedly and we came to a halt at a few trains per day halt with an automatic level crossing and signal.

A few minutes went by at which point one of the men suddenly shouted in perfect if accented English "you didn't have to stop the ****ing train, man!" and pulled out a handful of £20 notes and asked for tickets to Luton Airport.

I smiled, took his money and gave him his change and then told him that I hadn't stopped the train, there were signalling problems, just as we started moving again. He shook my hand and declared good game and said he and his mate were travelling tradesmen and usually had much more ease bunking trains in Europe and that was that.
 

Dai Corner

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I remember an incident on a train to Weston-super-Mare. Two mums with about six children between them were travelling together to the seaside town. They showed their adult tickets but none for the kids. The guard engaged the children in conversation about whether they'd been on a train before and what were they going to do in Weston before asking one of them how old he was.

"five"

The rest then gave their ages "I'm five too", "I'm six", etc.

Several child tickets were sold.
 

yorkie

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That's superb and puts me in mind of one of my favourite pieces of divine intervention I've experienced.

I picked up a pair of Eastern European gents in Lincolnshire one day. "No speak English". Got out Google translate and they were Lithuanian. Had a conversation which started with "our tickets are in our case and we are too tired to get them" and finished with "why are you still here?".

My next message was "I'm going to stop the train at the next station and call for the police" at which point the brakes went in unexpectedly and we came to a halt at a few trains per day halt with an automatic level crossing and signal.

A few minutes went by at which point one of the men suddenly shouted in perfect if accented English "you didn't have to stop the ****ing train, man!" and pulled out a handful of £20 notes and asked for tickets to Luton Airport.

I smiled, took his money and gave him his change and then told him that I hadn't stopped the train, there were signalling problems, just as we started moving again. He shook my hand and declared good game and said he and his mate were travelling tradesmen and usually had much more ease bunking trains in Europe and that was that.
Brilliant. Having met you I can visualise this happening. Not everyone would be as patient and pragmatic as you; bravo, I say.
 

c52

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When I was younger, on a visit to Paris I noticed that everyone who looked fit jumped over the barriers - I was appalled until I realised that jumping over the barriers was still possible if you had a valid ticket, and a great deal quicker. So I joined them.

When barriers were introduced here I wondered about jumping, but I discovered that it is illegal to enter or leave a station except by a permitted means.
 

DeeGee

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When I was younger, on a visit to Paris I noticed that everyone who looked fit jumped over the barriers - I was appalled until I realised that jumping over the barriers was still possible if you had a valid ticket, and a great deal quicker. So I joined them.

When barriers were introduced here I wondered about jumping, but I discovered that it is illegal to enter or leave a station except by a permitted means.
I lived in a town North of Paris that was served by trains on both the SNCF lines and the RER. Both went to Gare du Nord, on departure they left from the same ungated platform, but on arrival in Paris the SNCF lines were ungated, the RER ones in the Metro section and behind gates. Tickets cost the same, but, I subsequently found, if you were getting the RER they gave you a little yellow coupon that opened the barriers.

I bought a ticket to Gare du Nord, then went over the road to have a drink while waiting.

When I got back the the platform the RER was just coming in, so I hopped on that, there was no ticket inspection (I don't remember ever seeing one on the RER) and when I got off at the other end I was aghast to find that I was the wrong side of the barrier, and I couldn't find anyone who could assist me, and didn't know what the little ticket I needed was called in French anyway.

While looking for help I saw just how many people were bunking the barriers, and that was the method I eventually deployed to get out. That's the only time I've ever done it, and I felt awful. And I *had* paid the appropriate fare.
 

norbitonflyer

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Difficult to work out hopw much revenue is actually lost through evasion. Firstly, you can only count the ones you catch. Secondly, there will be some who would not travel, or use another method, if they couldn't ride for free - stricter enforcement would stop them travelling without paying, but as they wouldn't then be travelling you'd still get no revenue from them.

Over-strict enforcement of the rules against genuine errors can end up being revenue-negative, as the victims may think twice about using the trains again.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Do you think there should be a system to allow free train travel if a person is in a 'very tight spot financially'? Should it be funded by TOCs (effectively the DfT at the moment), the Department for Work & Pensions, or maybe a charity could be set up so people could donate to help out their fellow travellers?
There is such a scheme for people fleeing domestic abuse
Rail to Refuge - Womens Aid

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The rest then gave their ages "I'm five too", "I'm six", etc.

Several child tickets were sold.
Back in the days when such things were sold on board, a number of youths were seen buying cigarettes in the buffet car. A subsequent ticket check revealed they all had child tickets..........
 

Jeremy B

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Had a chuckle reading some of these travellers and staff memories on blatant fare evasion. My good lady wife and me were returning from London recently on LNER when the ticket lady caught 2 young Asian student girls who were sat in front of us with Grand Central Only tickets. Ten minutes of her time were spent attempting to explain in everyway on why they needed to purchase new tickets before she gave up and moved onto us as they allegedly didn't understand the English language. My wife didn't have her senior card ready and as she was searching for it the ticket lady glanced back at the Asian girls. One was reading a Newcastle University document in English. Even then they both insisted on getting a young persons card discount as she had offered it earlier. Full fare justice was swiftly served upon them.
 

6Gman

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I remember an incident on a train to Weston-super-Mare. Two mums with about six children between them were travelling together to the seaside town. They showed their adult tickets but none for the kids. The guard engaged the children in conversation about whether they'd been on a train before and what were they going to do in Weston before asking one of them how old he was.

"five"

The rest then gave their ages "I'm five too", "I'm six", etc.

Several child tickets were sold.
On the theme of people landing themselves in it when trying to avoid payment a non-railway anecdote. I was helping on the gate of a village show (which was basically a fundraiser for local causes). Group of youths approached and insisted they were all 14 so qualified for child rate admission. I raised an eyebrow but couldn't really challenge them. Unfortunately for them they were so keen to get in before anything further was said that they didn't wait for me to dig out their change (from the very bottom of my cash bag) so they ended up paying a couple of quid more than if they'd paid the adult rate! :rolleyes:

On a railway note I visited Manchester today and in a brief call at Piccadilly noted Northern staff grilling a couple of guys on the footbridge and BTP quizzing a guy on the platform on what seemed to be revenue issues. I wonder if we will be seeing some would-be Mancunian lawyers/ medics on the disputes & prosecutions sub-forum in the next few days?
 

stuu

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Back in the days when such things were sold on board, a number of youths were seen buying cigarettes in the buffet car. A subsequent ticket check revealed they all had child tickets..........
It is entirely possible for 15 year old to try and buy cigarettes though, such things were turned a blind eye to when I was at school in the late 80s
 

WesternBiker

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It is entirely possible for 15 year old to try and buy cigarettes though, such things were turned a blind eye to when I was at school in the late 80s
Indeed. The days when cigarettes were sold in the buffet car…! The past really is another country (except I was in school rather earlier).

Back on topic, I wonder what fare evasion levels were like in the days before ticket barriers? It’s hard to cast one’s mind back, but I recall quite a lot of on-train ticket checks in the 1970s - albeit all on long distance train journeys.
 

Starmill

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Before automatic ticket gates there were still ticket collectors at stations doing manual checks frequently. The efficacy of such checks is another matter though!
 

GusB

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No wonder patronage is declining in certain areas. Decent fare paying passengers do the right thing but their journeys are so often ruined by the scroats/oxygen wasters/scumbags who see "the railway" as fair game to thieve travel and act like c*nts totally ruining the journeys of those who actually pay their fare.

Sadly it won't ever change as the "yooman rights" leftie lawyers would be straight in to defend (or prevent deportation) of these low life scumbags.
I believe you omitted the word "woke" from your sad little tirade. I just thought I'd mention it so that you could complete the set. :)
Goddamn leftie lawyers doing things like upholding human rights and listening to such namby-pamby metropolitan luvvy-liberal elite nonsense like a 'fair trial' and 'innocent until presumed guilty'. Plus all those fare-dodging immigrants; string 'em up - it's the only language they know!
I know - how dare they presume to actually apply the law!
 
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