Daylight fare evasion

[johnnychips]

I wonder if ringing the BTP visibly in front of the non paying customer might work? OK, they might not be able to attend, but if they are having a quiet day, they might. Or are BTP not able to intervene in fare disputes/non-payment?

BTP=British Transport Police

 

[Six Bells]

I have said it for years, but if I were building the railway now, I would ensure that each station on the network was equipped with either electronic turnstiles or old fashioned turnstiles with an RPO securely positioned in a booth (Like a football ground) with a valid ticket required to get anywhere near the platform and a full, complete ticket required to exit at the other end. Fences would be provided to stop people dodging the turnstiles.

Pie in the sky I know, but the obligation for passengers to pay should trump aesthetics.

 

[Nova1]

I have said it for years, but if I were building the railway now, I would ensure that each station on the network was equipped with either electronic turnstiles or old fashioned turnstiles with an RPO securely positioned in a booth (Like a football ground) with a valid ticket required to get anywhere near the platform and a full, complete ticket required to exit at the other end. Fences would be provided to stop people dodging the turnstiles.

Pie in the sky I know, but the obligation for passengers to pay should trump aesthetics.

That creates a really unwelcoming environment and massively increases costs - you now effectively have to staff every single station. It's not worth staffing stations with low passenger numbers.

 

[skyhigh]

I have said it for years, but if I were building the railway now, I would ensure that each station on the network was equipped with either electronic turnstiles or old fashioned turnstiles with an RPO securely positioned in a booth (Like a football ground) with a valid ticket required to get anywhere near the platform and a full, complete ticket required to exit at the other end. Fences would be provided to stop people dodging the turnstiles.

Pie in the sky I know, but the obligation for passengers to pay should trump aesthetics.

Every single station? I dread to think how much that would cost - and it still wouldn't stop people just bumping through the barriers.

 

[capitalconnect]

I wonder if ringing the BTP visibly in front of the non paying customer might work? OK, they might not be able to attend, but if they are having a quiet day, they might. Or are BTP not able to intervene in fare disputes/non-payment?

BTP=British Transport Police

I am not sure that dealing with Fare Evasion is really a good use of police time. Fare Evasion is one of the most minor offences compared to other stuff that goes on around our railway network. So i think police time is much better spent focusing on more serious crimes that happen on our railways.

 

[WesternBiker]

Does anyone know what the rate of fare evasion actually is, for any of the TOCs?

That will determine for the companies to what extent it is worth invest £££ in preventative measures.

 

[Nova1]

Does anyone know what the rate of fare evasion actually is, for any of the TOCs?

That will determine for the companies to what extent it is worth invest £££ in preventative measures.

In the government document outlining reform to penalty fares, they say "The Rail Delivery Group (RDG) estimates that in a normal year around £240 million is lost through fare evasion on Great Britain’s railways."

source: Rail Penalty Fare value reform - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

[Merseysider]

Does anyone know what the rate of fare evasion actually is, for any of the TOCs?

That will determine for the companies to what extent it is worth invest £££ in preventative measures.

I don’t think figures get published on fare evaders as a % of all passengers. However I do know that the DfT/RDG/some TOCs publish estimated loss amounts from fare evasion from time to time, as alluded to in the above post.

 

[Hadders]

How much do you invest in equipment and people to collect every last penny of revenue? Anything you spend needs to more than pay back its cost otherwise it's simply not worth doing (admittedly there is the spin off of creating a safe and secure environment)

The top priority has to be keeping everyone safe and encouraging staff to tackle fare evaders (often single handed) is not going to end well. How long before we see staff being injured, or possibly worse.

What is needed is stronger sentences from the courts for those that are caught and prosecuted, as this provides a deterrent to others.

 

[johnnychips]

I am not sure that dealing with Fare Evasion is really a good use of police time. Fare Evasion is one of the most minor offences compared to other stuff that goes on around our railway network. So i think police time is much better spent focusing on more serious crimes that happen on our railways.

No, I know exactly what you mean, but quite a lot of BTP time seems to be either being quiet or very intense. So if they aren’t busy, why not look at fare evaders?

 

[Andrew S]

That would never happen over here, the railway is far too soft when it comes to deliberate fare evasion eg on TfL services eg the Underground you can get a PF of £80 I think but do the same on any TOC in the area and it's just £20.

Not much of a deterrent on the TOCs there hence why so many just chance it.

That does happen from time to time. I've seen sudden RPI and BTP swoops several times at Abbey Wood. I believe as well as fare evasion other offences are usually uncovered.

 

[alex397]

Southeastern seemed to have taken it seriously when I’ve seen fare evasion. I saw a group of youths jumping over a fence at Canterbury West and so I told the ticket barrier staff. Two members of staff then went up to confront them. I don’t know what they said, but the youths eventually walked out the station.
Thinking back, I’m not sure I would report it again, as I could have potentially put those staff members in danger - especially considering how many youths carry knives now, including in ‘posh’ Canterbury.

Another occasion a youth sat in first class was made to pay for a first class ticket.

I quite like the methods used on the Berlin U-Bahn. As many of you know, it is barrier-less. But it seems to have a lot of random ticket inspections. I was once travelling on the U1, and noticed a scruffy youth with a hoody up and playing around with his phone. While travelling between two stations he suddenly got up, put his hoody down, got out his ID and started checking tickets! The fact there was absolutely no warning certainly made me make sure I had a valid ticket! I’m not aware of such a method in the UK - usually fare dodgers are given a bit of a warning when they see the uniformed inspectors walking down the train, or see a group of people in hi-viz at the ticket barriers as the train arrives in the station.

 

[Killingworth]

There was recently a total revenue blockade at Nottingham station involving all TOCs, BTP and the trams. I don't know the results.

 

[al78]

How much do you invest in equipment and people to collect every last penny of revenue? Anything you spend needs to more than pay back its cost otherwise it's simply not worth doing (admittedly there is the spin off of creating a safe and secure environment)

The top priority has to be keeping everyone safe and encouraging staff to tackle fare evaders (often single handed) is not going to end well. How long before we see staff being injured, or possibly worse.

What is needed is stronger sentences from the courts for those that are caught and prosecuted, as this provides a deterrent to others.

Even that won't be effective if the chance of getting caught and prosecuted is near zero.

 

[Facing Back]

Southeastern seemed to have taken it seriously when I’ve seen fare evasion. I saw a group of youths jumping over a fence at Canterbury West and so I told the ticket barrier staff. Two members of staff then went up to confront them. I don’t know what they said, but the youths eventually walked out the station.
Thinking back, I’m not sure I would report it again, as I could have potentially put those staff members in danger - especially considering how many youths carry knives now, including in ‘posh’ Canterbury.

Another occasion a youth sat in first class was made to pay for a first class ticket.

I quite like the methods used on the Berlin U-Bahn. As many of you know, it is barrier-less. But it seems to have a lot of random ticket inspections. I was once travelling on the U1, and noticed a scruffy youth with a hoody up and playing around with his phone. While travelling between two stations he suddenly got up, put his hoody down, got out his ID and started checking tickets! The fact there was absolutely no warning certainly made me make sure I had a valid ticket! I’m not aware of such a method in the UK - usually fare dodgers are given a bit of a warning when they see the uniformed inspectors walking down the train, or see a group of people in hi-viz at the ticket barriers as the train arrives in the station.

I'd be curious to know what the stats are on people travelling without a ticket on the U and S-Bahn in Berlin compared to us. I've seen loads of inspections there and the officer just wanders down the train mostly scanning codes and it seems very rare that they get a miss.

They don't have the same issues with taking 10 minutes to find the e-ticket either, maybe we'll be that tech-savvy in a few hundred years.

 

[Blinkbonny]

I think the general theme here is correct. Passengers that pay on a regular basis are much more likely to be penalised than chavs & chancers. Years back I got a ticket from high Wycombe to burton on trent and split the fare in to 3 as it worked out about £7 cheaper (result!) it was high Wycombe to Banbury, Banbury to new St. new St. to burton, lost the Banbury to new St. ticket somewhere on the journey and the guard would not accept that I had obviously purchased all tickets together and slapped me with a penalty fare!

if I wasn’t so gosh darn honest I’d travel without a ticket more often!

Sounds like a classic "doughnut" to me...

 

[Aictos]

There was recently a total revenue blockade at Nottingham station involving all TOCs, BTP and the trams. I don't know the results.

There was one last year or the summer before on the SouthEastern network I believe between London Bridge and Rainham for just a month as they had a total revenue blockade as described above, the amount of PFs given was unbelievable.

Let's just say the staff from all involved including SouthEastern, BTP etc all did very well and proved how much revenue is lost though fare evasion.

 

[alex397]

I'd be curious to know what the stats are on people travelling without a ticket on the U and S-Bahn in Berlin compared to us. I've seen loads of inspections there and the officer just wanders down the train mostly scanning codes and it seems very rare that they get a miss.

I’d also be interested to know. I wonder if their societies are just more honest than us?

 

[WesternBiker]

I’d also be interested to know. I wonder if their societies are just more honest than us?

Estimated loss of fare income in Berlin is under 3%, from what I have read. And, of course, there is a big saving in the infrastructure of barriers and station staff. (I always find it extraordinary that large S-bahn stations out of the centre -even if underground - can have no staff at all.)

A nuance to that statistic is that, in polls, around 1 and 4 Berliners is admits to dodging fares from time to time - but it’s a 60 Euro fine if you’re caught. Like our parking tickets, the penalty increases if you don’t pay it immediately. (And because carrying an identity card is compulsory and normal, the bill gets sent to your address if you are not able to pay it on the spot.)

Interestingly, if you take the figure of £240m for fare evasion in the UK quoted by Nova1 above, and set it against the £10.2bn fare revenue for 2019-20, you end up somewhere close to the Berlin percentage.

 

[43066]

Thinking back, I’m not sure I would report it again, as I could have potentially put those staff members in danger - especially considering how many youths carry knives now, including in ‘posh’ Canterbury.

Another occasion a youth sat in first class was made to pay for a first class ticket.

Personally I’d always report this kind of thing, and let the staff use their discretion. Even if they don’t take any action the intelligence can be useful.

 

[Falcon1200]

I'd be curious to know what the stats are on people travelling without a ticket on the U and S-Bahn in Berlin compared to us. I've seen loads of inspections there and the officer just wanders down the train mostly scanning codes and it seems very rare that they get a miss.

Having grown used to ticket barriers in the UK I was surprised at the total lack of them in Berlin; The consequent ease and speed of access to platforms was much appreciated. We made many journeys on both the U- and S-Bahnen and IIRC only saw tickets being checked once.

Estimated loss of fare income in Berlin is under 3%, from what I have read.

It would be interesting to know how they calculate that figure ! Does the combination of ID cards and heavy fines make fare-dodging a much more difficult and expensive course of action than in the UK ? Presumably there are consequences if someone does not have, or refuses to produce, their ID card on demand from an authorised person.

 

[WesternBiker]

It would be interesting to know how they calculate that figure ! Does the combination of ID cards and heavy fines make fare-dodging a much more difficult and expensive course of action than in the UK ? Presumably there are consequences if someone does not have, or refuses to produce, their ID card on demand from an authorised person.

Good question - and I have no idea in terms of how the figure is calculated (likewise I have no idea how the RDG calculated their figure).

Being German, the procedure is incredibly organised and quite bureaucratic - see the official explanation here. (And, yes, it is in English on their website!) Of course you do not just need a ticket, it needs to be validated as well. Sometimes they'll let foreigners off in terms of the validation, particularly if you are coming from the airport (as I once was), but I've heard of other inspectors being stricter.

I've just been speaking to my German friend and mentioned this. Technically, you must have ID, but it is not compulsory to carry it with you. But you must provide it to authorities on request. German police have quite wide powers to ask for ID, and to detain someone until they produce valid ID, though my friend says this is rare, as most carry it habitually, as we might a drivers' licence, unless they're just popping to a local shop or the gym. Carrying it just avoids hassle if you are asked for it. I visit Berlin at least a couple of times a year, and I have only been asked for it a couple of times in 10 years.

The fine (see here - in English again!) for not possessing / presenting ID when required (section 1) is up to 5,000 Euro (section 32). I suspect the average fine is a lot less, but I don't know. That's a decent deterrent, though.

 

[43096]

I wonder if ringing the BTP visibly in front of the non paying customer might work? OK, they might not be able to attend, but if they are having a quiet day, they might. Or are BTP not able to intervene in fare disputes/non-payment?

BTP=British Transport Police

I've seen it done.

Great Yarmouth to Norwich service leaving Great Yarmouth. Punter with no ticket, guard gives him the option of going through to Norwich and meeting BTP, or off at the next station. After initially opting for Norwich/BTP, guard picks up his phone to ring BTP. Passenger changes his mind and decides on next stop. Get to next stop and he doesn't get off. Guard comes down and gives him the same choice, so he gets off.

The stop? Berney Arms. Next train 4 hours.

 

[sd0733]

I wonder if ringing the BTP visibly in front of the non paying customer might work? OK, they might not be able to attend, but if they are having a quiet day, they might. Or are BTP not able to intervene in fare disputes/non-payment?

BTP=British Transport Police

You dont even really need to call them, sometimes an official sounding chat to nobody on the other end (after checking phone is on silent) usually results in them finding money or getting off, just need to plant that seed of doubt that something will happen, if nothing else it looks like something is done to those around them

 

[6Gman]

I have said it for years, but if I were building the railway now, I would ensure that each station on the network was equipped with either electronic turnstiles or old fashioned turnstiles with an RPO securely positioned in a booth (Like a football ground) with a valid ticket required to get anywhere near the platform and a full, complete ticket required to exit at the other end. Fences would be provided to stop people dodging the turnstiles.

Pie in the sky I know, but the obligation for passengers to pay should trump aesthetics.

Can I volunteer for the job at Roman Bridge please?

I'd catch up on a lot of reading . . .

 

[D6975]

If you think nothing is being done about fare dodgers watch:
Fare Dodgers: At War With The Law
It's a TV programme, but you can find it on YouTube. It's all about revenue protection in London, quite a bit of it on the underground.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I am not sure that dealing with Fare Evasion is really a good use of police time. Fare Evasion is one of the most minor offences compared to other stuff that goes on around our railway network. So i think police time is much better spent focusing on more serious crimes that happen on our railways.

I am of the opinion that serious crimes are more likely to be commited by people who do not wish t buy a ticket. So it makes sense to be strict on minor things.

How much do you invest in equipment and people to collect every last penny of revenue? Anything you spend needs to more than pay back its cost otherwise it's simply not worth doing (admittedly there is the spin off of creating a safe and secure environment)

The top priority has to be keeping everyone safe and encouraging staff to tackle fare evaders (often single handed) is not going to end well. How long before we see staff being injured, or possibly worse.

What is needed is stronger sentences from the courts for those that are caught and prosecuted, as this provides a deterrent to others.

I agree it helps fare paying passengers feel self and less of a mug for paying. I have seen barriers jumped over at Purley - it made me feel that safety of passengers might not be that good.

I would not want to give a criminal record to someone who very occaisionally evades a fare - probably made a mistake or lost the ticket in reality. But repeat offenders or people who go to great lengths to evade a fare (jumping a fence or gate) should feel the weight of the law.

 

[Hadders]

I agree it helps fare paying passengers feel self and less of a mug for paying. I have seen barriers jumped over at Purley - it made me feel that safety of passengers might not be that good.

What do you suggest? How much additional resource would you commit and what would the payback be?

 

[Nova1]

What do you suggest? How much additional resource would you commit and what would the payback be?

I suppose you could redesign ticket barriers to be more anti-jump, like the paris metro

 

[Hadders]

I suppose you could redesign ticket barriers to be more anti-jump, like the paris metro

View attachment 103114

Looks like you can just crawl through the luggage gate.