daughters fixed penalty notice -help

[tatty]

Hi everyone, looking for any advise on the the following,
On 3 October my 18 yr old daughter made her first solo rail trip form Liverpool Lime Street to Crewe. On return trip ticket inspector at Lime Street finds her ticket invalid. She had been sold a day return not the open return she requested when purchased at Lime street. The inspector checked her details and as she had no record with then and the fare was the same price said the matter should go no further.

On 8 Nov letter from Nortern Rail asking for her version of events to which we replied as above.
She has now recieved a fixed penalty notice for Traveling from Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street without paying the fare and with the intent of avoiding that fare. The fare for the journey is £15.00

The fixed penalty £80.00 +£15.00 fare Or the threat of court action up to £1000.00 fine and cost of £150.00 and a criminal record.
She's a good Honest Kid want;s to pay the fine ,just finished college and un employed.
I'm angry at the way its been handled and want to go to court and hope for a Magistrate with some common sense .
Your advice would be appreciated
,ManyThanks DAD

 

[yorkie]

When she asked for an "Open Return", was that a request for the ticket type formerly (until a few years ago) known as Standard Open Return, and still retaining the code SOR?

A few years before that change, websites started using the term "open return", hitherto only used to describe the ticket type, for a new meaning that was very different: it simply meant a ticket that was NOT an Advance ticket. So we had about 8 years of total confusion whenever the term was used. But confusion remains a problem to this day.

Now, no-one knows what an "open return" is any more. Does it mean a ticket valid to return within one month? Does it mean no time restrictions at all? Or does it simply mean you are not tied to a specific train? Everyone has their own views.

If she simply asked for an "open return" then I would expect a competent ticket clerk to obtain more information before selling the ticket.

I do not know what legislation Northern might use to prosecute your Daughter, but if they use the Railway Byelaws, then they do not have to demonstrate intent as that is a strict liability matter. I am not convinced our legal system is sympathetic towards applying "common sense"; quite the opposite based on what I have seen!

Have you obtained advice, and a quote, from a solicitor competent in railway ticketing matters?

Northern are not at all afraid in making people angry, and are ruthless. They once famously prosecuted someone over 10p (which they lost - but they did not admit they were wrong to waste taxpayers money and remained defiant). Your Daughter did not travel with them (assuming she took a direct train) so she is not a customer of theirs, so they don't care about upsetting her (or you!). Tread very carefully, as it could be a tricky and costly case to win!

 

[bb21]

The inspector checked her details and as she had no record with then and the fare was the same price said the matter should go no further.

How much did your daughter pay?

The fares are definitely not the same.

 

[yorkie]

Crewe - Liverpool Anytime Day Single (SDS) £12.50 is the fare that Northern would presumably be claiming should now be paid to validate the return journey from Crewe to Liverpool. The cost of a return is £15, but why would Northern be asking for a day return to be paid for, when the outward journey was both on a previous day and not in dispute?

Liverpool - Crewe Anytime Return (SOR) £19.80 is presumably the fare that was being requested, as this is the fare formerly known as an "Open Return" before "Simplification" in 2008, though if travel is after 0900 then the SVR at £16.50 would have sufficed.

The fare sold was presumably an SDR at £15, or if travel was after 0900, a CDR at £10.40

 

[tatty]

Thanks for the feed back guys.
As stated it was her first intercity trip i dont use rail travel so not familiar with any tech talk.
She checked the web site before traveling and the price was £15.00 .The tick box option clearly states ''open return'', thats what she paid when purchased at station traveling at 11.30am.
As yorkie said why is she been charged the full fare and not a single fare from crewe.
Why was she not given the opportunity to pay the one way fare or given a warning as per the fair appeals policy.

Further questions
Can we appeal again against the fix penalty.
Up to what date can the fine be paid without incurring more charges.

 

[rdwarr]

She checked the web site before traveling and the price was £15.00 .The tick box option clearly states ''open return'', thats what she paid when purchased at station traveling at 11.30am.

Are you able to recreate this? Sorry to hear you're having so much hassle - I can understand how bad your daughter must be feeling over the whole matter.

 

[yorkie]

Are you able to recreate this? Sorry to hear you're having so much hassle - I can understand how bad your daughter must be feeling over the whole matter.

Yes, the rail industry used to exclusively refer to "Open Return" as a product that allowed you to use ANY train, returning within a calendar month.

From approx 1999, thetrainline introduced the their own use of the term "open return" as simply meaning any ticket that was not restricted to the 'booked train only', ie a product that allowed you to only use off peak trains, returning within one day, qualified under their own definition. Other booking engines followed.

This incredible confusion lasted until 2008, when the Train Companies decided to re-name the old "Open Return" as an "Anytime Return".

Since then, the term Open Return is not the offficial name of a product any more, however many people still use the term as old habits die hard. This can lead to confusion, as everyone has their own idea of what an "open return" is. A competent ticket clerk would, if asked for an open return, ask questions to identify which product meets the customers needs.

She checked the web site before traveling and the price was £15.00 .The tick box option clearly states ''open return'', thats what she paid when purchased at station traveling at 11.30am.

£15 is the cost of a ticket which is for any train returing the SAME DAY. The booking engines call this an "open return" but is NOT an "Open Return" in the traditional sense as in the ticket type formerly known by that name.

As yorkie said why is she been charged the full fare and not a single fare from crewe.

Indeed, she should not be charged the cost of a return, though we're only quibbling over £2.50 but it is so unfair that the Train Companies can prosecute passengers who underpay by as little as 10p, yet when they make a mistake, there are no concequences for them.

It's not a level playing field.

Why was she not given the opportunity to pay the one way fare or given a warning as per the fair appeals policy.

I am not aware that there is a "Fair appeals policy". Northern's policies are inherently unfair, and if they claim to be fair, they are lying.

Further questions
Can we appeal again against the fix penalty.
Up to what date can the fine be paid without incurring more charges.

It's basically an 'out of court settlement', it's not legally a penalty, nor is it legally a fine.

The single fare of £12.50 must be paid as soon as possible, but any further charges are up to you to decide if you wish to pay them or not.

If you choose not to, it is then up to Northern's prosecution department to decide whether or not to prosecute your Daughter. I wouldn't like to predict whether or not they will prosecute her, but if they do, they have the choice of legislation to use.

If they choose to prosecute her under the Regulation of Railways Act, then I think you could mount a good defence and have a reasonable chance of winning.

However a prosecution under Railway Byelaws is more likely, and does not require intent to be proven, as it is a 'strict liability' matter. Sadly, the rules and byelaws are luducriously anti-customer and are very much in Northern's favour, so they do have a good chance of winning such a case.

I would like to see you fight it, but you must understand the risks and costs involved.

 

[LexyBoy]

Why was she not given the opportunity to pay the one way fare or given a warning as per the fair appeals policy.

Unlike DfT-approved Penalty Fares schemes (such as operated by Merseyrail, EMT and many operators in the south), Northern's self-proclaimed "fixed penalty" scheme does not have any appeals body or regulator.

Fighting this will not be easy as the laws surrounding the railway are extremely unforgiving. Most of the time matters are handled sensibly without involving the law, but the Byelaws in particular make [the threat of] prosecution very easy for TOCs to use if they want.

I would bribe Northern off on this occasion and use your anger instead to campaign against their unfair practices.

 

[island]

I am still a little confused as to where the ticket was purchased and why the passenger was sold an anytime day return when an off-peak ticket would have been valid.

 

[bb21]

Did your daughter specifically request the £15 ticket? If so, then no more question needs to be asked by the ticket office clerk as a specific product is being requested. I can't comment on whether she had been sold an appropriate product as I don't know what conversation took place exactly.

I am also confused as to why they are asking for £15 as she only travelled without a ticket on the return leg, so only a single fare is owed.

 

[yorkie]

If someone asks for an "open return" at 1130, and the options are: Anytime, Anytime Day, Off Peak, Off Peak Day, and the latter two tickets have no evening restriction, then more information should be obtained but the one ticket that you definitely shouldn't be selling is the Anytime Day. But, somehow, that was the ticket sold. Bizarre.

And I also agree that it is bizarre that Northern asked for the cost of a new Day return, when only one leg was not made on a valid ticket.

 

[jon0844]

The naming is a mess. If you sit down and look at things as a whole, it becomes a bit clearer - but Joe Public being presented with so many similar sounding combinations are bound to be confused, and you only need them to meet someone in a ticket office that aren't paying attention/bothered/having a good day/in a rush because of a long queue and it's a recipe for disaster.

Imagine how many of these cases there are that never end up on this forum?

Anytime to many people could be taken quite literally - as in use it ANY time. So you buy an anytime return, and until you've used the return it's still valid, today, tomorrow, next week - heck, even next year.

Open is generally accepted in the airline industry as being usable at any time. In this case, you might have an open return and be free to use it to go out and back whenever you want (and I'm not sure how long such a ticket could be kept for before being used in either direction).

Again, if I didn't know, I'd consider anytime and open to be one and the same.

The only thing counting for the railway is if a ticket valid only for a day is clearly marked DAY return. At this point, you can at least check the ticket and know you can't use it after that date.

But you need to check that, and if buying online then it's possible you won't notice until you get it in the post or collect it from a ticket machine (depending on how the site works, so as not to have made it perfectly clear through the buying process).

 

[island]

Anytime to many people could be taken quite literally - as in use it ANY time. So you buy an anytime return, and until you've used the return it's still valid, today, tomorrow, next week - heck, even next year.

A colleague of mine ran into this problem on London Midland, having purchased an anytime day return from London Terminals to Milton Keynes C on Saturday from a TVM and had a very long argument trying to use the return half of the ticket on Sunday ("but it says ANY time").

 

[bb21]

you definitely shouldn't be selling is the Anytime Day. But, somehow, that was the ticket sold. Bizarre.

Whilst it is true that there is no reason for people to be sold this ticket at the time of purchase by the look of it, if the instructions given is that staff should sell a specifically requested ticket without further question then I can't really blame them for doing so. There may be special reasons why a passenger (not necessarily the OP) specifically wants a more expensive ticket than needed. There may be a queue with many other passengers waiting, so the quicker a passenger is served the better it is overall for everyone else. It is not unreasonable to assume in my eyes that someone who asks for a specific ticket knows what he/she wants. Of course I don't know that it is what is asked, so this is merely a possibility imo.

 

[jon0844]

I'd say that everyone should look closely at the ticket(s) they have and hopefully spot things before it becomes a major problem - i.e. before you're dealing with an RPI, instead of at the ticket office to change your ticket before it has been used.

I do wonder why we can't just have tickets that are sold as Peak and Off-Peak. By all means mark Peak tickets as Peak/Off-Peak for anyone that might think a peak ticket isn't valid off-peak (there would be some).

Everyone probably understands the concept of a peak and off-peak period on rail travel, here and abroad. It also makes things easier to select on a TVM which helps too, especially if the software was ever updated to be convey more useful information at a local level - such as a TVM showing when the first/last off-peak trains are from that station or other restrictions.

TVMs currently give sod all info, and what little information is given when you seek info is in a very confusing manner. There's certainly no easy way to compare them, and at some stations you have far too many options presented to you. It's understandable, even if dangerous, that people will probably pick a cheaper ticket over a more expensive one if they're not entirely sure.

Whilst it is true that there is no reason for people to be sold this ticket at the time of purchase by the look of it, if the instructions given is that staff should sell a specifically requested ticket without further question then I can't really blame them for doing so.

I guess there's a chance that because the OP's daughter had checked a price online, she might have inadvertently said that at the ticket office.. such as 'I think it's £nn.nn' or, when asked 'do you mean this one at £nn.nn?' said yes.

I've done that before, as in I knew the cost of the ticket I needed - so when the man behind the window seemed unsure, I was able to identify it by cost and he then found it. He did, rightly, state that it was my choice and I said that was fine.

 

[furlong]

If you want to know more, go to https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/ and search for "Northern Rail £80 fixed penalty" and read the documents.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If someone asks for an "open return" at 1130, and the options are: Anytime, Anytime Day, Off Peak, Off Peak Day, and the latter two tickets have no evening restriction, then more information should be obtained....

Any time I am asked for 'an open return' I ask if the person means 'open for any time today' or 'open for any time within a month'. I always, without fail, get the same slightly puzzled expression and then a response that the passenger clearly feels was obvious to begin with, but which varies between 'any time today' and 'any time within a month'.

....but the one ticket that you definitely shouldn't be selling is the Anytime Day. But, somehow, that was the ticket sold. Bizarre....

Whilst it is true that there is no reason for people to be sold this ticket at the time of purchase by the look of it, if the instructions given is that staff should sell a specifically requested ticket without further question then I can't really blame them for doing so. There may be special reasons why a passenger (not necessarily the OP) specifically wants a more expensive ticket than needed...

...It is not unreasonable to assume in my eyes that someone who asks for a specific ticket knows what he/she wants....

Exactly. I have had a few passengers specifically request more expensive fares than they need and in almost all cases the reason turned out to be quite simple. Their employer would only accept expenses claims valued over a set amount, an amount which is higher than the cheapest valid ticket.

....And I also agree that it is bizarre that Northern asked for the cost of a new Day return, when only one leg was not made on a valid ticket.

That I don't get, and I think communication with Northern would be required to sort it out.

....I do wonder why we can't just have tickets that are sold as Peak and Off-Peak. By all means mark Peak tickets as Peak/Off-Peak for anyone that might think a peak ticket isn't valid off-peak (there would be some)....

The problem here is not 'Peak' and 'Off-Peak' (which themselves are rather confusing as some off-peak tickets are valid when others aren't), but 'Anytime' and 'Anytime Day', or 'Off-Peak' and 'Off-Peak Day' tickets. IME, the terms 'Anytime Day' and 'Off-Peak Day' are rarely, if ever, used and 'Anytime' and 'Off-Peak' are often wrongly used to mean something else. The clearest ones I get are those who still use 'Saver', 'Cheap Day' and 'Apex', even though they went out of official use years ago because "they were confusing".

....I guess there's a chance that because the OP's daughter had checked a price online, she might have inadvertently said that at the ticket office.. such as 'I think it's £nn.nn' or, when asked 'do you mean this one at £nn.nn?' said yes....

That sounds plausible, especially at a station like Lime Street. It wouldn't be the first time it has happened and I doubt it would be the last. Eqally, the clerk could have mistakenly offered the day ticket and, because the price 'sounded right', it was accepted to be the right ticket.

 

[sheff1]

Everyone seems to be assuming the ticket was purchased from the booking office, but I see nothing here to confirm that one way or the other.

If it was purchased from the booking office, the problem is that no one on here, including the father, knows what discussion took place.

Without facts it is difficult to provide advice, other than that already given which is 'to tread carefully'.

 

[Greenback]

Everyone seems to be assuming the ticket was purchased from the booking office, but I see nothing here to confirm that one way or the other.

If it was purchased from the booking office, the problem is that no one on here, including the father, knows what discussion took place.

Without facts it is difficult to provide advice, other than that already given which is 'to tread carefully'.

I was just thinking the same thing, although it's fair to say that the wording in the OP, using the word 'requested' does tend to imply that the ticket was bought at the ticket office from a human being.

That said, if the OP's daughter did select the wrong ticket from a TVM, it would help to explain why she found herself in possession of a ticket that no clerk should have sold without at least requesting further information.

 

[yorkie]

Ticket Vending Machines at stations would not have an "Open Return" option, as far as I am aware? And given that the "Open Return" ticket type was renamed in 2008, I doubt any machines still refer to the old name?

 

[Greenback]

Yes, the machiens I've seen all say 'Anytime Return', 'Anytime Day Return' and so on.

But given the general confusion surrounding the term, and the way some machines are set out, I wouldn't rule anything out. The screens show a bewildering array of fares and ticket types for some destinations, and if the customer has already researched the price, they may unwittingly choose the wrong type, whatever the description on the screen.

I think we will never know the exact circumstances of what happened, or the nature of any conversation if the ticket was purchased at the ticket office. I hope that Northern will simply accept the £12.50 payment for the single fare once the situation has been explained.

 

[martinsh]

In my experience, if you are buying a ticket from a TVM off-peak for travel that day, and there is no evening peak restrictions, then "Anytime Day Return" is not even given as an option.

[ Conversely if you choose the option "Travel Tomorrow", and there is a morning peak restriction, then "Off Peak" tickets will not be shown ]

 

[Romilly]

She checked the web site before traveling and the price was £15.00. The tick box option clearly states ''open return'', thats what she paid when purchased at station traveling at 11.30am.

I can understand this. If you try to check fares on the East Coast website for a return journey, you type in the date of outward travel and then have the opportunity of ticking the "open return" box or specifying a return date. If you tick the "open return" box, the planner then offers a range of fares and possible outward journey times but, if your journey is short enough, the return fares offered will include day return fares and period return fares.

Unless you check the small print, or hover over a particular fare for just the right amount of time, you wouldn't know that some of the return fares are day returns and some are period returns. For a first-time user, I can see why you might think that the first return fare offered was valid for whatever you thought an open return was.

I am not saying that we shouldn't check the small print, just that it's an easy mistake for a first-time or occasional user to have made.

 

[fowler9]

I think it is a very unfortunate situation for the OP's daughter. I have always found Northerns staff to be very understanding when things have gone wrong. And further in their favour have offered advice about cheaper ways to make a journey without me asking, not to mention asking when I am making the return journey. I guess it is obviously dependent on who you get on the day, and what kind of day they have had.

I hope all is resolved the everyones satisfaction.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Any time I am asked for 'an open return' I ask if the person means 'open for any time today' or 'open for any time within a month'. I always, without fail, get the same slightly puzzled expression and then a response that the passenger clearly feels was obvious to begin with, but which varies between 'any time today' and 'any time within a month'.
.

Ditto. I normally ask "Are you coming back today or another day", or words to that effect, and get the same response as you. Puzzled look then an answer which is given in such a way to imply that what they want is obvious and why I am being such a thicko for even asking.

and if the customer has already researched the price, they may unwittingly choose the wrong type, whatever the description on the screen.

.

This is very common on one route I work. There is an off-peak (SVR) fare from A - B Rte Any Permitted which is the same price as an SOR from A - B Rte Via X (and not valid via the route nearly everyone takes for which Any Permitted is needed). It is extremely common to get the Rte Via X ticket presented when somebody has used the TVM. Upon questioning the response is normally along the lines of "That is what I paid last time", and it is fairly clear that they have had the SVR Rte Any Permitted, went to the machine, saw the same price ticket for the same journey and didn't read anything else.

 

[Hellfire]

Just out of interest, does anyone know whether there has ever been a legal challenge to Northern's famous £80 penalties and, if so, what was the result?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Just out of interest, does anyone know whether there has ever been a legal challenge to Northern's famous £80 penalties and, if so, what was the result?

I wouldn't know about any such argument in a Magistrates Court by a passenger defending themselves, but to my knowledge, I'm not aware of any challenges where the passenger has been professionally represented, and I can confirm that there have been none in my patch (Court of Appeal, Queens Bench, Supreme Court. etc).

I too would be interested to know, and would welcome contact from any of the professionals on here (via private message / PM) with experience of legal argument over Northern Rail's 'Failure to Purchase' scheme.

But we do digress from tatty's request for help.

 

[sheff1]

But we do digress from tatty's request for help.

I am sure if tatty returns with more information, or to ask more questions, people will help accordingly.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Just out of interest, does anyone know whether there has ever been a legal challenge to Northern's famous £80 penalties and, if so, what was the result?

I doubt it, as if you feel wronged you can always try your luck in the magistrates' court. Most people would cough up the £80 penalty. Serco, given that they run half the courts system, know this.

Although given the fraud allegations Serco face, the bleatings from Northern about "passengers trying it on" disgust me.

 

[yorkie]

Discussion on whether or not ticket names make sense has been moved to: Do ticket names make sense?