Darlington - Hartlepool Extended

[OMGitsDAVE]

The current Darlington-Hartlepool Northern Services have now been extended to the MetroCentre, with additional stops also been introduced between Darlington and Stockton. Is there any reason for this?

BEFORE;
Darlington
Stockton
Billingham
Seaton Carew
Hartlepool

NOW;
Darlington
Dinsdale
Allens West
Eaglescliffe
Stockton
Billingham
Seaton Carew
Hartlepool
Seaham
Sunderland
Heworth
Newcastle
MetroCentre

 

[142094]

To give the Durham Coast a better service on Sundays? Or is this just until Christmas? TBH the Darlington - Hartlepool services were not well used, so might as well use the unit for something a bit better and give a better service to Newcastle and the MetroCentre.

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

It may be a better service, but there's only 3 a day so it doesn't really make a difference - had a farce today where people were going "Whens the next MetroCentre train - and we had to tell them that its usually every 2 hours, with a few 'extras'" haha.

 

[DarloRich]

But the Darlo-Hartlepool service has been cut back so much over the years that very few people even know it exisits. Therefore passenger demand is low. It used to be one train a week on a sunday i think.

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

But the Darlo-Hartlepool service has been cut back so much over the years that very few people even know it exisits. Therefore passenger demand is low. It used to be one train a week on a sunday i think.

Its been 3-a day for a good year now, at the least.

 

[DarloRich]

that is good - but could be better!

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

that is good - but could be better!

Could definately be better.
They may as well call it at the airport too, then atleast we can say we have a direct link!

 

[tbtc]

that is good - but could be better!

Yes, but at what cost?

In an ideal world I'd chop the Saltburn service back as far as Darlington (half hourly, at current frequencies, but scope for more), and run a Bishop Auckland - Darlington - Hartlepool/ Sunderland service, interworked with additional Middlesbrough - Hartlepool/Sunderland services (realistically it'll be complicated to run additional services to Newcastle, given the constraints of those Metro services.

Trouble is, Bish - Hartlepool is a little too long for one unit to run it bi-hourly, so would knacker up any clockface timetable.

 

[142094]

Its been 3-a day for a good year now, at the least.

Always used to be 2 each way per Sunday.

EDIT:

Still is 2 per day according to the new timetable!

 

[DarloRich]

Yes, but at what cost?

In an ideal world I'd chop the Saltburn service back as far as Darlington (half hourly, at current frequencies, but scope for more), and run a Bishop Auckland - Darlington - Hartlepool/ Sunderland service, interworked with additional Middlesbrough - Hartlepool/Sunderland services (realistically it'll be complicated to run additional services to Newcastle, given the constraints of those Metro services.

Trouble is, Bish - Hartlepool is a little too long for one unit to run it bi-hourly, so would knacker up any clockface timetable.

The other problem is that at the moment the main traffic flow on that route is Bishop - Darlo or Darlo - Teesside (aka Boro) cutting back those services might mean reduced traffic on these trains.

 

[tbtc]

The other problem is that at the moment the main traffic flow on that route is Bishop - Darlo or Darlo - Teesside (aka Boro) cutting back those services might mean reduced traffic on these trains.

It's hard to suggest (realistic) improvements without making *something* else worse, but the Saltburn - Bishop Auckland service is a bit of a muddle at the moment.

Half hourly from Salrburn to Darlo, but only (approx) bi-hourly to Bishop Auckland, meaning a number of trains (from Saltburn) are sat in Darlington for half an hour or more, waiting for the next path east.

I appreciate that units need some recovery time and can't work flat out all the time, but it does seem wasteful. Hence my idea of concentrating the Saltburn services into a half hourly shuttle as far as Darlington (leaving Bishop Auckland to a separate service to Darlington). No change for Darlington, which retains the same service to both Middlesbrough and Bishop Auckland.

Since the ATN service from York to Sunderland was withdrawn (both the TPE extension to Wearside via Newcastle plus some York - Yarm - Hartlepool - Sunderland services), Sunderland lacks direct links to the ECML (there are a handful of GC services, but not a lot). So, I was wondering whether a direct Darlington - Hartlepool - Sunderland service would work (with ECML connections for places further south at Darlington). Possibly couple this to the Bishop Auckland service to tie up two loose ends.

Ideally I'd have the York - Hartlepool - Sunderland service hourly, but GC would (understandably) concentrate on London services.

Not perfect, I accept, but a suggestion. Another suggestion would be to extend the train shed at Darlington to cover the "avoiding" lines and ensure plenty platforms (since the Bishop Auckland services have to fight for platform space with the five/hour from York to Newcastle).

 

[DarloRich]

It's hard to suggest (realistic) improvements without making *something* else worse, but the Saltburn - Bishop Auckland service is a bit of a muddle at the moment.

Half hourly from Salrburn to Darlo, but only (approx) bi-hourly to Bishop Auckland, meaning a number of trains (from Saltburn) are sat in Darlington for half an hour or more, waiting for the next path east.

I appreciate that units need some recovery time and can't work flat out all the time, but it does seem wasteful. Hence my idea of concentrating the Saltburn services into a half hourly shuttle as far as Darlington (leaving Bishop Auckland to a separate service to Darlington). No change for Darlington, which retains the same service to both Middlesbrough and Bishop Auckland.

Since the ATN service from York to Sunderland was withdrawn (both the TPE extension to Wearside via Newcastle plus some York - Yarm - Hartlepool - Sunderland services), Sunderland lacks direct links to the ECML (there are a handful of GC services, but not a lot). So, I was wondering whether a direct Darlington - Hartlepool - Sunderland service would work (with ECML connections for places further south at Darlington). Possibly couple this to the Bishop Auckland service to tie up two loose ends.

Ideally I'd have the York - Hartlepool - Sunderland service hourly, but GC would (understandably) concentrate on London services.

Not perfect, I accept, but a suggestion. Another suggestion would be to extend the train shed at Darlington to cover the "avoiding" lines and ensure plenty platforms (since the Bishop Auckland services have to fight for platform space with the five/hour from York to Newcastle).

No I think you are right with what you say. The services along the Durham Coast are not that great and Sunderland as a city seems to be a poor realtion. Better links to the ECML south would be useful but any TOCS seem to just say get the Metro to Newcastle and get the train form there.

I dont know what the loadings are like on the Saltburn - Boro section but it might be more senisble to perhaps alternate trains away form Saltburn, one to Hartlepool or even Sunderland, one to Darlo.

 

[ainsworth74]

I dont know what the loadings are like on the Saltburn - Boro section but it might be more senisble to perhaps alternate trains away form Saltburn, one to Hartlepool or even Sunderland, one to Darlo.

Normally pretty good, it is fairly quiet between Saltburn and Redcar (still not that quiet), but from Redcar it's normally at least half full most times of the day I would have said. Peak time it doesn't even approach emptying out until Redcar (heading towards Saltburn) or Middlesbrough (and is normally packed before Redcar).

I would have reservations about cutting back the service, not that I'm biased or anything

I like tbtc's idea for extending the number platforms by turning the avoider into platforms, the problem for me would be whilst services from Middlesbrough would avoid having to cross the ECML proper services from Bish would still have to cross the entire thing. Still I don't think its necessarily a bad idea having more platforms is always useful and just getting Darlo-Boro services off the ECML would be handy.

 

[DarloRich]

IF there were extra platforms then surely you would not run a through Bishop-Saltburn service. It would negate the point. This seems to be part of the bloody stupid Tees Valley Metro thing.

I would put the North facing bay back in and let Bishop trains terminate there ( or put in a grade seperated junction at Parkgate Junction or South Junction)

 

[dickdarlington]

The proposed Tees Valley metro had plans to build platforms to the East of the avoiding lines at Darlington (having a bridge to link to the main station). Not sure if this is now dead in the water.

The half hourly service obviously serves as the link for Teesside to Newcastle. As even comng to Darlington and changing is still quicker than the Durham coast route.

Is there any revenue in Hartlepool having a more regular service with Boro? If there was, surely there would be one in place already. Many a time I've been on Boro station and a Metro Centre train has departed before the Darlington train came in, and it never seemed to be half as full as the Darlington service.

The Darlington to Saltburn route is very well used from my experience, as Ainsworth confirms. Whilst I would like to see a connection with the ECML and the Durham Coast from Darlington. The argument is that this is served from Newcastle and as such would be a duplication for a line where passenger volumes are low.

To implement this feasibly you would need to lose the 30 minute service between Darlington and Boro. And for that, and that alone, I can't see the service increasing from it's current one day a week.

 

[142094]

As has been said the Tees Valley project had plans for platforms where the avoiders are at Darlington. I thought I heard this was one of the projects that was given the go-ahead in the Spending Review but haven't heard much since then.

The situation at present with 2tph Darlo - Saltburn should be kept. The main flows are Middlesbrough - Darlington and Middlesbrough - Redcar, and even in off peak times they are well used. What I think could be a possibility is extending the Bishop Auckland times to one tph - however I gather the reason this is not done is due to pathing in platform 1 at Darlo. So if the platforms on the avoider were built, this could be the best solution. Either that or reopen the north facing bay and run an hourly shuttle.

As for the Durham Coast line - the only real advantage it has is that it is a direct service - some people will still use it all the way from Middlesbrough to Newcastle and the MetroCentre to save having to change. The linespeeds on this line should be a lot faster (and I'm sure the resignalling is helping to do something about the long blocks which are unneccessary). However the big thing about running more services is that the pathings through Sunderland are already tight.

 

[dickdarlington]

Could you not have the Metro Centre - Middlesbrough trains reverse at Boro and form a service to Darlington (or York). It will create the link, and will not add any additional paths through Sunderland. It would also increase the tph between Darlington and Boro. Extra units might be needed though to allow the additional running. And there could be a problem (unless new platforms are built) at Darlington.

Not sure a 1tph Bish Vegas - Monte Darlo would be needed. It's not the most used service in the world. But saying that. With the removal of the X14 bus, public transport links between the two towns are poor. With Bishop getting a better bus service to Newcastle than Darlington.

As for the Tees Valley Metro. It wasn't mentioned fully in the spending review. But there was mention of an increased bus service through the entire of the Tees Valley. Perhaps it was included in this.

 

[DarloRich]

I really hope they dont build this metro thing - total waste of money. It would be better to spend some of that money on the exisiting line.

I would also like to see links with Darlo (sorry Teesside, Sorry Durham Tees Valley) International Airport restored. The station is there and is pretty decent nick. The only problem is the distance from the terminal but nothing a mini bus link wouldnt sort out. A little bit of outlay and you could tart the station up so it looks nicer. You might need to build a lift but everything else seems ok (last time i was there)

The extra platforms at Darlo are a sensible, if long way off idea, in that they might stop conflicting movements and increase services on ECML but still dont solve the problem that Boro-Bishop trains ahve to cross the ECML somewhere. I suppose the answer is to chop the through train off and do Bish-Darlo/ Darlo -Teesside.
Mind you with buses in the Darlo area terrible it could be a chnace to increase passenger loadings. I dont think there is even a bus from Darlignto nto Boro or Stockton!

 

[dickdarlington]

I hope that they don't build this Metro thing either. It would decimate the value of my house. :cry:

I also agree that it would be a big waste of money. The idea of refurbed sprinters aren't such a bad idea though. And the money to upgrade the track to increase running times are also good. The plan I think is to move the station nearer to the airport terminal. But I am not sure how they will achieve this. Unless they build new platforms at the road junction with the A67.

No real need for a major rebuild at Darlo (unless there is a HS2 station there in the future) - but maybe reintroducing the northern bay as mentioned.

There is a bus service from Darlo to Boro/Stockton, but it is a shadow of its former self.

 

[DarloRich]

Didnt know those busses still ran! Who has come up with this Metro plan - it really is a stupid idea in the wrong place!

The North facing bay might free up a bit of space at the station but i suppose the ECS shunt at the end of the day would be a bit of a pain and it is a fair walk to the rest of the station.

Cant see how the Airport Station can be moved closer to the terminal. Is it not as close as you can get it?

 

[tbtc]

I hope that they don't build this Metro thing either. It would decimate the value of my house. :cry:

I also agree that it would be a big waste of money

What's the reason (s) for disliking it?

I thought it was just a more frequent Saltburn - Darlo service (four/ hour?), at least in the short term? Or are there more "ambitious" plans too (for "stage two" etc)?

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

Mind you with buses in the Darlo area terrible it could be a chnace to increase passenger loadings. I dont think there is even a bus from Darlignto nto Boro or Stockton!

The X66 runs through all 3, every 30 minutes.
+Then the service 12 from Hurworth to Middlesbrough, via Darlington, DTV Airport, Stockton + Middlesbrough.

To be fair. The Middlesbrough - Newcastle trains ARE well used, especially from Hartlepool (i must say). If there was a 30-minutely service between Boro+Pools, it could stay in the bay until its scheduled departure. Hourly (as now) onwards.

Stage 1 of the Tees Valley Metro was additional stations at Teesside Park + James Cook Hospital (Boro), and 4 tph between Saltburn and Darlo.
Stage 2 was Hartlepool - Nunthorpe every 15 minutes.

 

[DarloRich]

Didnt know about that - so long since i used the bus for anything other than getting to the pub!

James Cook seems a sensible idea but any station for Teeside Park is a decent walk to the shops!

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

Oh, i forgot about the Airport station too, was meant to be moved much closer to the centre.

Only thing they can do with teesside park now is an underground station to get it ANYWHERE near the shops themselves - not going to happen.
They'll need a shuttle bus from the station!

 

[142094]

Could you not have the Metro Centre - Middlesbrough trains reverse at Boro and form a service to Darlington (or York). It will create the link, and will not add any additional paths through Sunderland. It would also increase the tph between Darlington and Boro. Extra units might be needed though to allow the additional running. And there could be a problem (unless new platforms are built) at Darlington.

The Middlesbrough services come from Hexham normally, so would definetly need a few more units to run them to Darlington and York. Don't think it would have much effect as people would change at Newcastle to get to stations south on the ECML, and would just duplicate the Saltburn - Darlo services.

I thought it was just a more frequent Saltburn - Darlo service (four/ hour?), at least in the short term? Or are there more "ambitious" plans too (for "stage two" etc)?

One of the plans was to replace the 142s with 'newer' trains. Newer being 156s. Doubt this region will see any new stock, it will all be stuff cascaded from elsewhere. Think I remember 170s was supposed to come after the 156s.

Cant see how the Airport Station can be moved closer to the terminal. Is it not as close as you can get it?

Plan in the TV Metro report was to move it a few hundred metres towards Darlo. Common sense prevailing, just reinstate the bus shuttle. Of course neither will even happen until more services actually stop at the station.

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

I would love to see Turbo's here! Would look great.

 

[ainsworth74]

I would love to see Turbo's here! Would look great.

Indeed it would bring a tear to my eye.

By that I mean because of the sad demise of near non-stop pacer action in these parts

 

[tbtc]

near non-stop pacer action in these parts

Do 158s ever work to the Boro?

I thought it was 142/156s only on Northern services from Heaton, but had a 158 on a Carlisle - Newcastle service on Sunday, which took me by surprise. Do they ever make it down the coast?

 

[142094]

Do 158s ever work to the Boro?

I thought it was 142/156s only on Northern services from Heaton, but had a 158 on a Carlisle - Newcastle service on Sunday, which took me by surprise. Do they ever make it down the coast?

Very rarely indeed. Did have some a few years back working the Morpeth - MetroCentre shuttles, one was in ex-Central trains livery and the other in ex-Alphalines. Don't think any 158s are due to work out of Heaton, all down at Neville Hill and Newton Heath. Think the only possible times they come up are during times of disruption or for maintenance (although I would have thought Leeds or Manchester does their maintenance). Saying that, 144s do come up for maintenance at Heaton (but never seen them used on passenger services).

 

[tbtc]

Very rarely indeed. Did have some a few years back working the Morpeth - MetroCentre shuttles, one was in ex-Central trains livery and the other in ex-Alphalines. Don't think any 158s are due to work out of Heaton, all down at Neville Hill and Newton Heath. Think the only possible times they come up are during times of disruption or for maintenance (although I would have thought Leeds or Manchester does their maintenance). Saying that, 144s do come up for maintenance at Heaton (but never seen them used on passenger services).

Cheers for clarifying; I was most confused to find one at Hexham!