Cycling laws that need clarifying

[En]

Because turning up long after a crime has happened (if they turn up at all) has proven to be such an effective way of preventing crime...

What is the first duty of a Constable? to Preserve Life

the reality of modern Policing and modern Ambulance work in the UK is that there is such a volume of high priority threat to life incidents that lower priority taskings are not able to be resourced ina a timely manner, even with the use of volunteers, others agencies and inter agency working

 

[AM9]

It's just that the law hasn't caught up. As I said, I think all low speed personal conveyances - escooters*, ebikes* and traditional pedal cycles - should come under the same legislative framework. It's somewhat ironic that riding a fast road bike drunk is likely to be far more dangerous than bimbling along at 15.5mph on a scooter.

* Limited to 25km/h or 15.5mph, though I'd increase to 30km/h or 20mph to ease riding with traffic in 20 zones and thus improve safety - faster and it's a motor vehicle.

There is a significant difference between an e-scooter vs an e-cycle though. Non electric cycles have been accepted road vehicles since they were introduced. Riders have adequate visibility of the road (and they are generally visible to other road users). They also have wheels that can safely traverse most road irregularities. E-cycles are just motorised versions of the same mode with additional weight and likely higher speeds attained by the average rider.
E-scooters are derived from what is essentially a childs pavement vehicle, but are capable of much higher speeds and in no circumstances suitable for pavements provided exclusively for pedestrian use. They are also unsuitable for safe riding the irregularities of some road surfaces and consequently their riders seem to assume some right to use predestrian pavements with the obvious dangers that it brings. Unless somebody comes up with a safe road-use protocol, I can't see any way of preventing conflicts leading to injuries or worse between their riders and innocent pedestrians.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a significant difference between an e-scooter vs an e-cycle though. Non electric cycles have been accepted road vehicles since they were introduced. Riders have adequate visibility of the road (and they are generally visible to other road users). They also have wheels that can safely traverse most road irregularities. E-cycles are just motorised versions of the same mode with additional weight and likely higher speeds attained by the average rider.
E-scooters are derived from what is essentially a childs pavement vehicle, but are capable of much higher speeds and in no circumstances suitable for pavements provided exclusively for pedestrian use. They are also unsuitable for safe riding the irregularities of some road surfaces and consequently their riders seem to assume some right to use predestrian pavements with the obvious dangers that it brings. Unless somebody comes up with a safe road-use protocol, I can't see any way of preventing conflicts leading to injuries or worse between their riders and innocent pedestrians.

Have you ever ridden one?

 

[AM9]

Have you ever ridden one?

No but I've had to avoid being knocked over by pavement-riding users at speed. Whether I had or not doesn't alter the risks to those who expect pavements to be for predestrians.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No but I've had to avoid being knocked over by pavement-riding users at speed. Whether I had or not doesn't alter the risks to those who expect pavements to be for predestrians.

I'd suggest trying one before suggesting that they can't easily be ridden on the road. They can, some users just elect not to.

 

[AM9]

I'd suggest trying one before suggesting that they can't easily be ridden on the road. They can, some users just elect not to.

That option is not sustainable. There should be real penalties for abusing pedestrian space. The current situation is untenable.

 

[Egg Centric]

That option is not sustainable. There should be real penalties for abusing pedestrian space. The current situation is untenable.

While I totally agree that they shouldn't be wizzing around in pedestrian spaces, what is it that makes them worse in principle than cyclists who can also do that?

The rental ones have a 5mph(?) limit when they detect they're on a pavement btw.

I enjoy them once in a while when I'm somewhere with a rental scheme but would only ride them on a road or perhaps crossing a pedestrianised city centre type place where there was no alternative. It's up to the user not to be obnoxious. Please don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Bare in mind the escooter riders you currently see are (unless they are on a rental scheme) by definition scofflaws!

Getting back to the subject of the thread, the ebike assistance limit is crazy. I'd have it up to a level you need a helmet if you come off - maybe 30mph? Scooter limit of 15 is probably about right with UK potholes.... don't think I'd fancy hitting one at 20mph on an escooter, at least without a helmet which I really don't want to be compelled to wear)

(I'm a big fan of removing speed limits in general though where appropriate - I want HGVs to be able to do 80mph, Coaches/Vans 100mph, and cars/bikes entirely derestricted on motorways. We're really pathetic about this stuff)

 

[bramling]

Walking is statistically less safe than cycling.

Thing is with that, it’s probably fair to say that walking you are less likely to be involved in an incident that’s not your fault. By contrast on a cycle the chance of that is much higher.

The main thing is to have decent lights. Flashing lights are the best.

Agreed. Certainly helps a lot.

 

[Ediswan]

While I totally agree that they shouldn't be wizzing around in pedestrian spaces, what is it that makes them worse in principle than cyclists who can also do that?

Two possible reasons come to mind:

eScooters have narrower handlebars than most bicycles, they fit through narrower gaps.

Electric drive offers easier acceleration, more wizzy.

 

[JohnMcL7]

There is a significant difference between an e-scooter vs an e-cycle though. Non electric cycles have been accepted road vehicles since they were introduced. Riders have adequate visibility of the road (and they are generally visible to other road users). They also have wheels that can safely traverse most road irregularities. E-cycles are just motorised versions of the same mode with additional weight and likely higher speeds attained by the average rider.
E-scooters are derived from what is essentially a childs pavement vehicle, but are capable of much higher speeds and in no circumstances suitable for pavements provided exclusively for pedestrian use. They are also unsuitable for safe riding the irregularities of some road surfaces and consequently their riders seem to assume some right to use predestrian pavements with the obvious dangers that it brings. Unless somebody comes up with a safe road-use protocol, I can't see any way of preventing conflicts leading to injuries or worse between their riders and innocent pedestrians.

I think it was ITV who did a comparison between an e-scooter and a basic bike (rim brakes, narrow tyres) measuring the impact forces going over rough spots on the road, braking performance and stability when riding one handed to signal for a junction. Even though it wasn't a great bike it was significantly better than the e-scooter, its big wheels absorbed the impacts better, it could break in a much shorter distance and it was more stable riding one handed. It appeared to highlight as you've said that the e-scooters are not a suitable design for riding on the road hence so many people riding them on the pavements.

It seems common to equate e-bikes and e-scooters as much the same but they're clearly very different devices.

Getting back to the subject of the thread, the ebike assistance limit is crazy. I'd have it up to a level you need a helmet if you come off - maybe 30mph? Scooter limit of 15 is probably about right with UK potholes.... don't think I'd fancy hitting one at 20mph on an escooter, at least without a helmet which I really don't want to be compelled to wear)

If you want an ebike that does 30mph then they exist already as electric mopeds with the various rules and requirements which make sense given the much higher speed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it was ITV who did a comparison between an e-scooter and a basic bike (rim brakes, narrow tyres) measuring the impact forces going over rough spots on the road, braking performance and stability when riding one handed to signal for a junction. Even though it wasn't a great bike it was significantly better than the e-scooter, its big wheels absorbed the impacts better, it could break in a much shorter distance and it was more stable riding one handed. It appeared to highlight as you've said that the e-scooters are not a suitable design for riding on the road hence so many people riding them on the pavements.

It seems common to equate e-bikes and e-scooters as much the same but they're clearly very different devices.

With considerable experience of both (own an ebike and often use the rental ones and scooters) I think they are much the same in terms of use-case and usability on the road. The scooter can have advantages in some cases, e.g. it's much more stable to ride with a large bag on your back than a bike.

They have suspension and are fine to ride on the road.

The one point where I'd agree with you is that it can be hard to take a hand off to signal, so with that in mind I'd mandate them to have indicators. Some of the hire ones do.

If you want an ebike that does 30mph then they exist already as electric mopeds with the various rules and requirements which make sense given the much higher speed.

20mph is a sensible top speed for EAPCs in my view, allows you to ride with traffic in a 20 limit rather than slightly frustratingly slower leading to dangerous overtakes. I'd agree that higher should be considered a motorcycle (e.g. a 30mph limited scooter).

 

[Egg Centric]

e-bikes can already do 30mph downhill (or on the flat with a cyclist much fitter than me). Just not with any power assist. In the US they have ones that can legally do 28mph. I really don't see why a 40+ tonne HGV should be allowed to do 30mph but I'm restricted to 15. Regulating them to high 20s or low 30s is the sensible sweet spot to me whereby you're near the safe limits of the frame / what happens if you fall off.

 

[En]

e-bikes can already do 30mph downhill (or on the flat with a cyclist much fitter than me). Just not with any power assist. In the US they have ones that can legally do 28mph. I really don't see why a 40+ tonne HGV should be allowed to do 30mph but I'm restricted to 15. Regulating them to high 20s or low 30s is the sensible sweet spot to me whereby you're near the safe limits of the frame / what happens if you fall off.

are you refering to EAPC ( electrically assisted Pedal Cycles) which arelegla or the illegal Electric mopeds peopel claim are bicycles ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

are you refering to EAPC ( electrically assisted Pedal Cycles) which arelegla or the illegal Electric mopeds peopel claim are bicycles ?

EAPCs can be ridden at any speed, they just don't assist above 25km/h, above that they just become a heavy normal bicycle. Just like a "speed limited" lorry can do 70mph downhill - it's just a power restriction.

 

[stuu]

e-bikes can already do 30mph downhill (or on the flat with a cyclist much fitter than me). Just not with any power assist. In the US they have ones that can legally do 28mph. I really don't see why a 40+ tonne HGV should be allowed to do 30mph but I'm restricted to 15. Regulating them to high 20s or low 30s is the sensible sweet spot to me whereby you're near the safe limits of the frame / what happens if you fall off.

What about kinetic energy? The faster you are going the more damage you do to someone you crash into, therefore insisting on some level of training, licensing and insurance for higher speeds makes a lot of sense to me

 

[Bletchleyite]

What about kinetic energy? The faster you are going the more damage you do to someone you crash into, therefore insisting on some level of training, licensing and insurance for higher speeds makes a lot of sense to me

Best require a licence and insurance for the cyclist I saw doing about 70mph down the Llanberis pass a few months ago

All cycles can easily get to 40mph or so downhill.

 

[Jimini]

I once got my road bike up to 40.1mph coming down one of the North Downs hills (forget which one). Pretty sure the speed limit would have been 50mph though, so not breaking any rules. Was a bit hairy braking on the final bit before the bend at the end!

 

[Egg Centric]

What about kinetic energy? The faster you are going the more damage you do to someone you crash into, therefore insisting on some level of training, licensing and insurance for higher speeds makes a lot of sense to me

What about it? There's loads of cyclists doing 30mph+ in hilly places and they very rarely hurt someone.

 

[stuu]

Best require a licence and insurance for the cyclist I saw doing about 70mph down the Llanberis pass a few months ago

All cycles can easily get to 40mph or so downhill.

Fair point!

Although that is quite a lot different to be able to do it at will in the middle of a town for example. And when you are on a bike at 40mph+ it tends to concentrate the mind on the task in hand

 

[Egg Centric]

Pretty sure the speed limit would have been 50mph though, so not breaking any rules.

(Just as an FYI, speed limits don't apply to bikes - except in one of the royal parks I think, where they do by a bylaw!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fair point!

Although that is quite a lot different to be able to do it at will in the middle of a town for example. And when you are on a bike at 40mph+ it tends to concentrate the mind on the task in hand

True. FWIW I think it should be 20mph to allow them to be ridden with traffic in towns. Not higher.

 

[Krokodil]

e-bikes can already do 30mph downhill (or on the flat with a cyclist much fitter than me). Just not with any power assist. In the US they have ones that can legally do 28mph. I really don't see why a 40+ tonne HGV should be allowed to do 30mph but I'm restricted to 15. Regulating them to high 20s or low 30s is the sensible sweet spot to me whereby you're near the safe limits of the frame / what happens if you fall off.

HGVs are motor vehicles and in order to drive them you need a licence, registration etc. Electric-assist bikes are verging on being motor vehicles, but get to benefit from being treated as pedal cycles by virtue of their limited top speed under power. I can see the justification for 30kph/20mph, but beyond that I'd want the user to have a moped licence.

 

[blueberry11]

Another thing is children cycling on the pavement. I generally see those under 17 cycling on the pavement because they don't feel safe on the road. However, I do think its still illegal even though most do it anyway and also because those under 10 cannot be fined for doing so.

 

[Krokodil]

Another thing is children cycling on the pavement. I generally see those under 17 cycling on the pavement because they don't feel safe on the road. However, I do think its still illegal even though most do it anyway and also because those under 10 cannot be fined for doing so.

Teenagers are just as capable of cycling on the road as adults. If the road isn't safe then the road needs sorting out

 

[Bletchleyite]

Teenagers are just as capable of cycling on the road as adults. If the road isn't safe then the road needs sorting out

Better to fully segregate in my view aside from small residential roads. There really isn't much about cycling that the Dutch get wrong - we just need to copy.

 

[Krokodil]

Better to fully segregate in my view aside from small residential roads. There really isn't much about cycling that the Dutch get wrong - we just need to copy.

Indeed. And the segregation needs properly designed junctions too.

 

[Bald Rick]

Best require a licence and insurance for the cyclist I saw doing about 70mph down the Llanberis pass a few months ago

All cycles can easily get to 40mph or so downhill.

unlikely to have been doing 70. Most amateurs will rarely go above 50/55 simply because of the aero effect and technique, and that‘s assuming they dont run out of courage first. Even the best pros on the very best machines money can buy will struggle to get past 60 - Tom Pidcock just managed it on his hair raising descent off Galibier in Le Tour last year, and won the stage. I have done 45 on the same stretch, and left a skidmark…

 

[renegademaster]

That option is not sustainable. There should be real penalties for abusing pedestrian space. The current situation is untenable.

And which should be applied to reckless cyclists too. And if someone on a escooter is riding sensibly at 15 mph they should be left alone, common sense really. Nothing actually inherent makes them much different from a legal ebike other than law hasn't caught up yet

 

[Bletchleyite]

unlikely to have been doing 70. Most amateurs will rarely go above 50/55 simply because of the aero effect and technique, and that‘s assuming they dont run out of courage first. Even the best pris on the very best machines money can buy will struggle to get past 60 - Tom Pidcock just managed it on his hair raising descent off Galibier in Le Tour last year, and won the stage. I have done 45 on the same stretch, and left a skidmark…

I was driving at an indicated 50-60 and he was rapidly getting away from me...maybe not quite 70 but certainly 60.

 

[AM9]

And which should be applied to reckless cyclists too. And if someone on a escooter is riding sensibly at 15 mph they should be left alone, common sense really. Nothing actually inherent makes them much different from a legal ebike other than law hasn't caught up yet

Anybody other than a pedestrian on foot alone or pushing a pushchair, trolley, wheelchair or cycle* should be prosecuted for abusing a pedestrian space. With the exception of an approved powered wheelchair, no other motorised item should be allowed.
* the exception is a child on a childs' cycle (ISTR previously defined as a pavement cycle with wheels less than 20in diameter). Cycles have evolved abd there are plenty of cycles with smaller wheels , e.g. Bromptons. A child under 10 years can cycle on the pavement.