Cycling laws that need clarifying

[The exile]

Stopping quickly and being hit by a car from behind is what I'd be thinking about.

That’s almost certainly going to be caused by the driver’s delayed reaction rather than the braking distance of the car itself.

 

[Falcon1200]

Thought this was entirely optional nowadays for cyclists!

It's not for me, I stop at red lights! Although there are a couple of places I know where the traffic lights are activated by cameras which do not seem to register bikes....

More regularly, they pick up unlit cyclists, usually setting up in the evening the week the clocks go back.

They (Oxford Police) got me for that once! It was in 1974 however....

 

[dcbwhaley]

Yes, true, most people are incapable of exceeding 30mph on a pushbike aside from downhill, and e-bikes are governed below that (otherwise they're entirely illegal whatever speed they're being ridden at).

It's difficult to do, though, as it would mean needing the installation of a calibrated speedometer, which e-bikes have (in order to enforce the assistance drop out at 15.5mph) but pedal cycles mostly do not. You could apply it to e-bikes only, but personally I think bringing all three low-speed personal transport methods under one set of laws would be better (as it's simpler and easier to enforce) and so it'd be against that, plus e-bikes are less likely to be ridden in excess of 20 because they're so heavy that going above the assisted speed is for most considerable effort.

I have riddejn myu e-bike at over 30mph on a long downhill (Cat 'n' Infidel to Buxton)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2024 ==

With regard to helmets, "Shoulds" in the Highway Code do not constitute law. They are merely recommendations which one can disregard, though they may come into play when determining what level of compensation should be awarded in an accident, e.g. if an injury was worsened by not wearing a helmet there's plenty of precedent for the compensation paid only being at the level that would have been paid for the likely level of injury that would have occurred had one been worn rather than the one that did when one wasn't, i.e. contributory negligence.

That is known, in the vernacular, as "victim blaming" and is uniquely applied to cyclists. There are no cases of damages to pedestrians or motorists being reduced because they were not wearing helmets.

It is akin to saying that a women wearing sexy clothes is contributing to the injuries suffered when she is raped.

 

[gordonthemoron]

In the U.K. I think it unlikely you’d be done for drunk cycling
In Germany the limit is double the driving limit, I was done for €1000 for slightly exceeding this
In Australia the limit is the same as for driving

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is akin to saying that a women wearing sexy clothes is contributing to the injuries suffered when she is raped.

It's actually quite offensive to make that comparison unless the accident resulted from a deliberate act e.g. a close pass. Accidents are accidents, they are incompetent, not wilful. Because the roads aren't safe by their nature, it's prudent to take precautions when using them. One is entitled to choose not to take them, but if one does not then one cannot expect others to pay for the consequences of that choice when the accepted norm, as defined by the Highway Code, is that those precautions be taken.

Helmets are not applicable to pedestrians or motorists. I'm certain that if a motorcyclist was not wearing one that contributory negligence would feature.

I'm not in favour of compulsion other than possibly for under 18s. But equally one must accept consequences that result from one's choices.

 

[lachlan]

It's not for me, I stop at red lights! Although there are a couple of places I know where the traffic lights are activated by cameras which do not seem to register bikes....



They (Oxford Police) got me for that once! It was in 1974 however....

Check if there are sensors in the road - I put in a request to my local authority to increase the sensitivity as my bike was not being detected. As soon as a car pulled up behind me the lights would change.

Now I've changed my route I'm finding the lights change to green while I'm still cycling the other way - and so sometimes I end up meeting cars heads on when we both went through a green!

 

[Falcon1200]

Check if there are sensors in the road - I put in a request to my local authority to increase the sensitivity as my bike was not being detected. As soon as a car pulled up behind me the lights would change.

Interesting, thanks.

 

[stuu]

Check if there are sensors in the road - I put in a request to my local authority to increase the sensitivity as my bike was not being detected. As soon as a car pulled up behind me the lights would change.

Now I've changed my route I'm finding the lights change to green while I'm still cycling the other way - and so sometimes I end up meeting cars heads on when we both went through a green!

Loops in the road work through magnetic fields, so if you are riding a bike made of something other than steel then they won't work. Some lights use infrared or radar which are much better at picking up bikes of all kinds.

 

[JamesT]

Loops in the road work through magnetic fields, so if you are riding a bike made of something other than steel then they won't work. Some lights use infrared or radar which are much better at picking up bikes of all kinds.

This isn’t correct. Any conductive material will disrupt the magnetic field generated by the induction loop and thus be detected.

 

[Ediswan]

This isn’t correct. Any conductive material will disrupt the magnetic field generated by the induction loop and thus be detected.

If set sensitive enough. I used to make regular use of one which would not reliably detect my bicycle. Weaving helped. Or wait for a car, which never took long.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting, thanks.

There was an approach controlled set at the crossing just up from Bletchley station that didn't detect bikes. I too complained and they were switched to conventional push-button mode for pedestrians so they were on green unless a crossing was requested - so they do sometimes listen!

 

[Bald Rick]

Loops in the road work through magnetic fields, so if you are riding a bike made of something other than steel then they won't work. Some lights use infrared or radar which are much better at picking up bikes of all kinds.

This isn’t correct. Any conductive material will disrupt the magnetic field generated by the induction loop and thus be detected.

And bike chains are all made of steel, so make sure your chain goes over the inductive loop and you‘ll be fine. Or if it works off infrared sensors, wave as you come up to them - works for me!

 

[dcbwhaley]

Helmets are not applicable to pedestrians or motorists. I'm certain that if a motorcyclist was not wearing one that contributory negligence would feature.

Why are helmets not applicable to pedestrians and motorists? Both suffer head injuries in accidents, especially the former,

Similar to condemning cyclists who wear dark clothing but not condemning cars that are painted black

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why are helmets not applicable to pedestrians and motorists? Both suffer head injuries in accidents, especially the former,

Pedestrians are, per head, far less likely than cyclists to be hit by cars, because they do not share the same space as often.

Similar to condemning cyclists who wear dark clothing but not condemning cars that are painted black

Cars are far more brightly lit at night, large and noisy. Bicycles aren't. The objective risks differ.

 

[stuu]

This isn’t correct. Any conductive material will disrupt the magnetic field generated by the induction loop and thus be detected.

Fair enough, I was repeating what the bloke at the council told me when I moaned about them not working

 

[dcbwhaley]

It's actually quite offensive to make that comparison unless the accident resulted from a deliberate act e.g. a close pass. Accidents are accidents, they are incompetent, not wilful.

If damages are being awarded then the motorist must have been careless or negligent. Then the cyclist is a victim who is being blamed for contributing to his injuries. Just as a young women who is attacked when walking through a dark alley is said to be "asking for it". Anybody going about their legitimate business is entitled to the full protection the law with no account being taken of them not complying with something which is not required by law.

Some extreme mountain bikers wear body armour. Should ar oad cyclist who breaks a collar bone be admonished and penalised for not wearing body armour?

And how, without repeating the incident, determine how much less severe the injury would have been had the cyclist being wearing protection?

 

[AY1975]

Pedal cycles - lighting

www.gov.uk

"Any cycle which is used between sunset and sunrise must be fitted with the following:

• white front light
• red rear light
• red rear reflector
• amber/yellow pedal reflectors – front and rear on each pedal"

Note .... cycle must be fitted..... (which I presume precludes the rider being fitted).

Does this mean that if you have a bike that predates the requirement for a red rear reflector and pedal reflectors, you must get your bike retrofitted with them?

 

[JamesT]

Does this mean that if you have a bike that predates the requirement for a red rear reflector and pedal reflectors, you must get your bike retrofitted with them?

If you want to use it between sundown and sunrise, yes.

 

[Llanigraham]

Which I find very odd, as they're very easy pickings - you can spot one a mile off.

One suspects they may fear accusations of racism etc, as most such "e-bikes" are ridden by the likes of Deliveroo couriers, and most Deliveroo couriers are not middle aged British white men.

In the Dyfed Powys Police area?
Around here they are most likely to just take the illegal bike away and destroy it.

 

[andylikestrain]

In the U.K. I think it unlikely you’d be done for drunk cycling
In Germany the limit is double the driving limit, I was done for €1000 for slightly exceeding this
In Australia the limit is the same as for driving

I’m wondering about licence issues here. In England you are likely to lose your driving licence for drunk driving. If the legislation is brought in to include cycles, what about cyclists without a driving licence?
This already applies if you can be prosecuted for drink driving on a scooter.
Anyone know?

 

[JamesT]

I’m wondering about licence issues here. In England you are likely to lose your driving licence for drunk driving. If the legislation is brought in to include cycles, what about cyclists without a driving licence?
This already applies if you can be prosecuted for drink driving on a scooter.
Anyone know?

What legislation brought in for cycles? Cycling drunk is already an offence, though one that attracts a fine as the maximum sentence.
E-scooters are treated as motor vehicles, so all the same laws apply as a car.

 

[Meole]

I’m wondering about licence issues here. In England you are likely to lose your driving licence for drunk driving. If the legislation is brought in to include cycles, what about cyclists without a driving licence?
This already applies if you can be prosecuted for drink driving on a scooter.
Anyone know?

Cycling whilst impaired through drink or drugs has always been illegal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cycling whilst impaired through drink or drugs has always been illegal.

But can't result in a driving ban.

 

[JohnMcL7]

What legislation brought in for cycles? Cycling drunk is already an offence, though one that attracts a fine as the maximum sentence.
E-scooters are treated as motor vehicles, so all the same laws apply as a car.

The new cycling rules were to be brought in as an amendment to the Criminal Justice Bill by the conservatives:

'Dangerous cyclists' could face up to 14 years in prison under new law

UK government set to introduce new death by dangerous cycling offence

www.cyclingweekly.com

I think I read at some point Labour would be continuing with it however I've not seen anything on it recently. I've not seen any mention of points on licenses and instead the amendment seems focused on the more serious offences and therefore more serious punishments like jail time. Going back to the original post I think the simple reason drunken cycling is rarely an issue is because there's little if any impact to others, the same as why there's few offences for cycling such as speeding.

 

[Magdalia]

E-scooters are treated as motor vehicles, so all the same laws apply as a car.

As demonstrated by this recent case.

E-scooter drink-rider from Hitchin fined and banned from driving

Kyle Pateman, 29, from Hitchin, is starting a 23-month ban after pleading guilty to three charges.

www.bbc.co.uk

A man who drove an e-scooter while under the influence of alcohol has been fined and banned from driving.

 

[dangie]

Thought this was entirely optional nowadays for cyclists!

I feel it is incorrect to class anyone who rides a bicycle to be called a cyclist, just like it’s wrong to class anyone who wires up a plug to be called an electrician. I think most cyclists ride responsibly, just like most motorists drive responsibly. In both cases it’s those who don’t ride or drive responsibly who are the problem. They are in the minority, but it’s those irresponsible ones who you remember not the responsible ones.

As for e-scooters, I’m 73 but I’d love one. I’m sure many more would love to have one. Unfortunately though they are generally illegal to use on public land unless they conform to certain conditions, conditions of which are not applicable to e-cycles. It’s perceived that they are dangerous. No they’re not. The e-scooter isn’t dangerous, it’s how some use them. As is often the case, knee jerk reaction. Penalise the many for the actions of the few.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's just that the law hasn't caught up. As I said, I think all low speed personal conveyances - escooters*, ebikes* and traditional pedal cycles - should come under the same legislative framework. It's somewhat ironic that riding a fast road bike drunk is likely to be far more dangerous than bimbling along at 15.5mph on a scooter.

* Limited to 25km/h or 15.5mph, though I'd increase to 30km/h or 20mph to ease riding with traffic in 20 zones and thus improve safety - faster and it's a motor vehicle.

 

[brad465]

How about this for a story highlighting laws around speeding:

Cycling: 20mph speed limit leads to Junior Tour of Wales reroute

The Junior Tour of Wales changes three of its five stages, cutting the length of the race.

www.bbc.co.uk

A cycling race has been shortened and rerouted due to Wales' 20mph default speed limit, organisers have said.

Three of the five stages of the Junior Tour of Wales, which starts on Friday, have been changed as support vehicles would not be able to keep up with the riders without speeding.

The race's finish has also been moved from Nantgaredig, Carmarthenshire, the home of three-time Olympic cycling medallist Emma Finucane.

The Welsh government said it had worked with organisers to make sure the race could go ahead safely.

Richard Hopkins, the race organiser, said: "A Welsh government scheme designed to enable cycle races to manage race and public safety through 20mph zones has failed, leaving us with a major problem.

"Even though there was only seven miles of 20mph across the whole 237-mile, four-day race, and even then split into a number of very short sections, we couldn't guarantee to manage all of them safely."

Speed limits do not apply to cyclists, meaning safety and support vehicles would not be able to keep up, Mr Hopkins said.

The Junior Tour of Wales is an annual race which started in 1981 and previous participants include former Tour de France champion Geraint Thomas and double mountain bike gold medallist Tom Pidcock.

 

[andylikestrain]

As demonstrated by this recent case.

E-scooter drink-rider from Hitchin fined and banned from driving

Kyle Pateman, 29, from Hitchin, is starting a 23-month ban after pleading guilty to three charges.

www.bbc.co.uk

As demonstrated by this recent case.

E-scooter drink-rider from Hitchin fined and banned from driving

Kyle Pateman, 29, from Hitchin, is starting a 23-month ban after pleading guilty to three charges.

www.bbc.co.uk

This is what I was getting at; as far as I know I don’t need a driving licence to ride an e scooter. It doesn’t seem to be consistent that I can lose my driving licence for being over the limit on an e scooter, when others without a driving licence by definition cannot be banned from driving for the same offence.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is what I was getting at; as far as I know I don’t need a driving licence to ride an e scooter.

You do (though any entitlement will do, including I *think* provisional, you don't need a motorcycle category). The apps take and verify a photo of it before you can hire one to ride. It's not purely for identity - other ID e.g. passports aren't accepted.