Current state of Rail&Sail / SailRail

[ajdunlop]

I wanted start a general thread on the current state of Rail and Sail. My first question is who actually runs Rail and Sail, is it a grouping of the TOCs who operate it and ferry operators or a separate entity? I get the impression some companies take it more seriously than others. Some of the better ones are Virgin who have kept direct Holyhead services and ScotRail and ATW both advertise it well but on the bad side Stena moving from Stranraer, having to pay for buses in Ireland to get from ferry to station, lack of robust online booking and flaky information.
I have noticed recently that the RailSail website redirects to information on ATW's site instead of the separate one it used to.
My feeling is that with a bit more effort Rail&Sail could be hugely improved and could take advantage of the much higher costs of and increase in hassle of flying recently.

 

[davelew99]

Just a quick comment on Stena and Stranraer,

I was recently up at CairnRyan doing some work at the new terminal and i spoke with one of the staff about passengers. They do get a lot of foot passengers but they are not worried about losing them due to there being no rail terminal at CairnRyan because they are putting on coaches to meet with the ferry which would take people to Ayr where there is regular glasgow services (he said one every 30 minutes, as opposed to Stranraer which is one every 2 hours - i haven't checked this information).

The coach service will always wait if the ferry is late, unlike the trains.

 

[wintonian]

Just a quick comment on Stena and Stranraer,

I was recently up at CairnRyan doing some work at the new terminal and i spoke with one of the staff about passengers. They do get a lot of foot passengers but they are not worried about losing them due to there being no rail terminal at CairnRyan because they are putting on coaches to meet with the ferry which would take people to Ayr where there is regular glasgow services (he said one every 30 minutes, as opposed to Stranraer which is one every 2 hours - i haven't checked this information).

The coach service will always wait if the ferry is late, unlike the trains.

and it seems the coach trip is over an hour long, I would rather spend that on a train.

railsail was I believe a set of agreements between BR and the ferry company’s (I assume some routes started under British Ferries) now obviously managed by ATOC.

 

[davelew99]

and it seems the coach trip is over an hour long, I would rather spend that on a train..

As would I, but it seems that given how many people already arrive in Stranraer by coach that lots of peope don't mind...

 

[dvboy]

RailSail's telesales line is an ATW callcentre.

 

[Greenback]

The adveetising and sale of the product can definitely be improved. I suspect that the real difficulty is that the product itself is not of interest to the majority of the TOC's, who do not wish to contibrute to soemthing they get very little beneift from.

 

[bkhtele]

Yes I am a regular user and with a little attention to the overall customer experience it would change from a minority service to a serous product.
Biggest challenges
1. Buying the ticket: so often can't book on any web site except rail easy. Almost every time ticket offices in England (major stations) they say something like, I don't think we sell these any more, they don't know if it is Belfast, Belfast NI, or Belfast port. Then they say no tickets available! Return ticket difficult. Dublin is the same.
Can't buy ticket any more from most machines.
Tried to buy rail sail ticket at 10.30 pm in Euston to go on sleeper, can't sell it till tomorrow
About 1 year ago Nir travel in Great Victoria St station said can't sell you ticket on 7.30am? As no connection even though I was happy to wait!
2. Only way to buy ticket is to state which ferry, accept their journey and then work out your own route.
3. Hanging around for ferry or train owing to poor connections.
4. Letting coaches take over the train market!

 

[gordonthemoron]

RailSail to Holland seemed better than Ireland, although I had no trouble buying the irish ticket in Nottingham Station, whereas I had to phone up for the Holland one

 

[wintonian]

I'm starting to wander if it might be useful to have a list of stations where it is reasonably easy to buy a shipping links ticket, obviously this depends on which member of staff you get to see to a certain degree.

What do people think? Good idea or bad idea?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And it seems the coach trip is over an hour long, I would rather spend that on a train.

Not much consolation when the connecting train has already gone :roll:

 

[Greenback]

How many traditional type ferry stations will there be left where you can walk off a train and on to the ship, or vice versa?

I can think of Fishguard, Harwich and Holyhead (for the fast ferry only?) that will be left after Stranraer goes.

 

[dubscottie]

I know myself that buying a ticket to the UK is easy from Dublin. Get it at the port tell them where you are going (London, Manchester etc), Once you get of the ferry get it stamped and away you go..

Have anyone tried the self service machines?

Many years ago, while waiting for a train in Scotland, We stuck Dublin Pearse into one of the (then new) machines and it came up! (also Sligo, Cork, Derry, Limerick etc)

Think it was £196 from Inverkeithing to Dublin via Belfast. IIRC that was for the return..

Maybe it was just the ScotRail ones..

 

[kylemore]

The only explanation for the current state of the Stranraer rail connection is deliberate running down with a timetable designed to discourage users.
And with the new terminal opening next month the rail connection traffic is effectively at an end.
Who is going to get off a coach at Ayr to travel to Glasgow when they can simply stay on the coach for another hour or less if it runs non-stop via the motorway?
The Ayr service will run but I predict it will carry mainly local passengers.
The main foot passenger link will now be the express coach links with rail irrelevent.
The question now is what is the Girvan to Stranraer line for?
It has become irrelevent to local transport needs with an inconvienient and very sparse timetable.
There is potential there but it would need a dynamic personality like say the guy in charge of Chiltern.

 

[Mike395]

How many traditional type ferry stations will there be left where you can walk off a train and on to the ship, or vice versa?

I can think of Fishguard, Harwich and Holyhead (for the fast ferry only?) that will be left after Stranraer goes.

Ryde Pier Head too - although I realise that's within the UK!

 

[First class]

Ryde Pier Head too - although I realise that's within the UK!

You've effectively also got Liverpool James St, (5min walk) for Isle of Man and to Ireland (no through tickets for Ireland)

Heysham Port also for Isle of Man

 

[Greenback]

Ryde Pier Head too - although I realise that's within the UK!

If we're counting Stranraer we can count Ryde Pier Head!

You've effectively also got Liverpool James St, (5min walk) for Isle of Man and to Ireland (no through tickets for Ireland)

Heysham Port also for Isle of Man

Yes, Heysham, that's another one! Not sure about James St though, I was thinking of those places where you are off the train and straight into a terminal rather than having a 5 minute walk!

 

[Mike395]

OK, if we're counting Ryde, Portsmouth Harbour is another one

 

[First class]

So

Fishguard Hbr
Harwich Intl
Holyhead
Ryde Pier Head
Portsmouth Harbour
Heysham Port
Stranraer

-Suppose you've also got Kyle of Lochalsh for ferry to Skye
Is Pembroke Dock as close as the name infers?

 

[Greenback]

So

Fishguard Hbr
Harwich Intl
Holyhead
Ryde Pier Head
Portsmouth Harbour
Heysham Port
Stranraer

Is Pembroke Dock as close as the name infers?

Sadly not. It's quite a stroll with luggage!

 

[kylemore]

Err has nobody heard of Ardrossan, Gourock, Oban and the Jewel in the crown of Rail-Steamer (sorry ferry!) interchanges Wemyss Bay!

 

[wintonian]

Wemyss Bay - Indeed did that one this morning (left Haymarket on the 05:59 walk fron Queen Street to Central and time for a quick breckie) , rained a bit to start off with though.

Wonderfull station, maginficifcnt arcutecture shame 2 platforms are out of use though.
very, very glad I visited today.


Apolligies for the spelling Word dosn't seem to relise that it has a spell checker on the laptop!

 

[harz99]

The only explanation for the current state of the Stranraer rail connection is deliberate running down with a timetable designed to discourage users.
And with the new terminal opening next month the rail connection traffic is effectively at an end.
Who is going to get off a coach at Ayr to travel to Glasgow when they can simply stay on the coach for another hour or less if it runs non-stop via the motorway?
The Ayr service will run but I predict it will carry mainly local passengers.
The main foot passenger link will now be the express coach links with rail irrelevent.
The question now is what is the Girvan to Stranraer line for?
It has become irrelevent to local transport needs with an inconvienient and very sparse timetable.
There is potential there but it would need a dynamic personality like say the guy in charge of Chiltern.

The Stranraer rail service has historically been timed for ferry connections; Stena have made this difficult by continually changing ferry times with full knowledge that "the railway" cannot do the same mid timetable, and without any meaningful consultation.

With regard to who is going to get off the coach at Ayr - anyone with a rail-sail ticket, because their coach will not go beyond Ayr! That will include the pax that don't just need to end up in Glasgow or Edinburgh, but have further rail travel in their journey.

With the exception of football traffic the "main foot passenger link" on the NI to Stranraer/Cairnryan ferries has for some time now been the Belfast-Glasgow/Edinburgh and Birmingham/London coach services.

The rail link from Stranraer is most certainly NOT irrrelevant to local travel needs. The first bus from Stranraer to Ayr does not arrive in Ayr until 0943 after a 126 minute journey. This is useless for the many students at Ayr College and others working in Ayr. Return journeys are of similar length.

The service specification for the line is set by Transport Scotland; it doesn't matter who runs whichever TOC on the Scotrail franchise, they can't change that and in any case would have to work within the cost constraints of that specification.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Err has nobody heard of Ardrossan, Gourock, Oban and the Jewel in the crown of Rail-Steamer (sorry ferry!) interchanges Wemyss Bay!

Err, last time I was at Ardrossan I don't remember seeing a ferry terminal right next to the station............................

 

[Greenback]

The Stranraer rail service has historically been timed for ferry connections; Stena have made this difficult by continually changing ferry times with full knowledge that "the railway" cannot do the same mid timetable, and without any meaningful consultation.

Good point.

With regard to who is going to get off the coach at Ayr - anyone with a rail-sail ticket, because their coach will not go beyond Ayr! That will include the pax that don't just need to end up in Glasgow or Edinburgh, but have further rail travel in their journey.

Again, a good point, There will still be a small market of those people who prefer not to fly or drive, and don't live in Glasgow or Edinburgh, or they live somewhere that doesn't have a coach link but does have a railwat station!

Mrs G and myself certainly fit the bill, but unfortunately we do not live in the area!


T

The rail link from Stranraer is most certainly NOT irrrelevant to local travel needs. The first bus from Stranraer to Ayr does not arrive in Ayr until 0943 after a 126 minute journey. This is useless for the many students at Ayr College and others working in Ayr. Return journeys are of similar length.

I think it is very pessimistic to write off the Stranraer service altogether. As I have said in other threads on the subject, this could be a great chance to revise the service to make it more attractive to locals, rather than having to tie it in with the times of the ferries.

 

[tbtc]

I think it is very pessimistic to write off the Stranraer service altogether

I can't see it ceasing (it'd be daft to spend millions to build a "new" line to serve the sparsley populate Borders at the same time as closing another rural line).

However, without the Ferry traffic, there's less scope for direct trains north of Ayr/Kilmarnock. A clockface bi-hourly Stranraer - Ayr - Kilmarnock service would be more user friendly than what people have at the moment.

The only question is what to do about Girvan, which has more of a case for a better service.

 

[Greenback]

I can't see it ceasing (it'd be daft to spend millions to build a "new" line to serve the sparsley populate Borders at the same time as closing another rural line).

However, without the Ferry traffic, there's less scope for direct trains north of Ayr/Kilmarnock. A clockface bi-hourly Stranraer - Ayr - Kilmarnock service would be more user friendly than what people have at the moment.

The only question is what to do about Girvan, which has more of a case for a better service.

Would i tbe possible to provide an hourly service to Girvan, with twp hourly extensions to Stranraer?

 

[harz99]

Would i tbe possible to provide an hourly service to Girvan, with twp hourly extensions to Stranraer?

From pax point of view, probably the best solution would be 2 hourly Ayr to Stranraer with connections to/from GLC at Ayr, and an overlapping 2 hourly Kilmarnock to Girvan service to give 1tph on the common section.

Won't happen though due to cost and crew/unit utilisational.

 

[kylemore]

Well the proof will be in the pudding.
I don't think the future for the Stranraer line is rosy.
As to the comparison with the Borders line with ferry traffic removed the line to Galashiels and Tweedbank is by far a more viable prospect than the continued operation of the Stranraer line.
I'am sorry but without the Irish traffic the line is defunct!
So what if the first bus does'nt get to Ayr until 0943 - just retime the bus!

 

[First class]

Well the proof will be in the pudding.
I don't think the future for the Stranraer line is rosy.
As to the comparison with the Borders line with ferry traffic removed the line to Galashiels and Tweedbank is by far a more viable prospect than the continued operation of the Stranraer line.
I'am sorry but without the Irish traffic the line is defunct!
So what if the first bus does'nt get to Ayr until 0943 - just retime the bus!

Stanraer Timetable
The other route being amended is between Kilmarnock and Stranraer. Following Stena’s planned
relocation from Stranraer Town to Port Ryan later this year the opportunity has been taken to refocus the
service to more meet local needs. One key part of this is enhancing the number of services between Ayr
and Girvan.
Five additional services EWD between Ayr and Girvan.
Five additional services EWD between Girvan and Ayr.
One additional service EWD between Glasgow Central and Ayr (0942) which runs forward to Stranraer.
Two additional services EWD between Ayr and Glasgow that have come from either Girvan or Stranraer.
Withdrawn - One right EWD between Stranraer and Ayr.
Withdrawn - One right EWD between Ayr and Stranraer

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Considering its current somewhat fraught status, Stranraer is doing very well on the forum with it being featured in two different threads at present. Are there forum members who still remember the British Rail mantra of "Stran - Hey - Holy - Fish" to help market these ferry railheads ?

 

[harz99]

So what if the first bus does'nt get to Ayr until 0943 - just retime the bus!

Your world is very simplistic isn't it.

What about the schoolchildren (not students) who use the same bus to get from the villages south of Girvan to Girvan Accedemy then?

Retiming the first bus to arrive in Ayr an hour earlier will mean this group and anyone working in Girvan, getting to Girvan an hour to early.

And before you suggest an additional bus, remember the cutbacks...............