Crush loading, less than platform lengths

[delt1c]

We keep getting told that passenger numbers are increasing, yet why are we not seeing new stock built with future expansion built in. We see IET reducing carriages ( but increasing Knee chewing). elsewhere in Europe it seems future growth is taken into account, but in the UK it is the PEP formula ( Pack Em Perpendicular) formula. We have station platforms capable of long formations but new stock using less platform length .

 

[Bletchleyite]

We keep getting told that passenger numbers are increasing, yet why are we not seeing new stock built with future expansion built in. We see IET reducing carriages ( but increasing Knee chewing). elsewhere in Europe it seems future growth is taken into account, but in the UK it is the PEP formula ( Pack Em Perpendicular) formula. We have station platforms capable of long formations but new stock using less platform length .

I agree, this is Northern's biggest problem and a large order of new rolling stock would resolve the vast majority of it for the foreseeable future.

 

[AM9]

I agree, this is Northern's biggest problem and a large order of new rolling stock would resolve the vast majority of it for the foreseeable future.

The problem is that unless platform entry/exit locations are intelligently positioned along the trains' lengths, passengers will pack into the coach nearest the stairs, complaining that the train is overcrowded whilst the other end of the train carries mostly air.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

The problem is that unless platform entry/exit locations are intelligently positioned along the trains' lengths, passengers will pack into the coach nearest the stairs, complaining that the train is overcrowded whilst the other end of the train carries mostly air.

Maybe on 8 coach services down south but here in Northern land your average commuter train has 2 or 3 carriages so the other end of the train isn't that far away!

The wisdom of Northern replacing clapped out 2 or 3 coach trains with new 2 or 3 coach trains is questionable to say the least. Why aren't the new trains 4 or 5 coaches instead?

 

[Sleeperwaking]

We have station platforms capable of long formations but new stock using less platform length .

Not in all places - Leeds North West (out to Skipton) is an example where deployments with new stock in 6-car formations was planned, but platform extension works to permit this haven't been done yet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem is that unless platform entry/exit locations are intelligently positioned along the trains' lengths, passengers will pack into the coach nearest the stairs, complaining that the train is overcrowded whilst the other end of the train carries mostly air.

Then that (and it does happen at Euston) is their loss. The capacity is at least being provided for all of them to have a seat. That they choose through bone idleness[1] not to have one is not the railway's problem, and those of us who will walk to the front of a 12-car set at Euston can still, on some services (but not all), continue to enjoy our table bays to ourselves while the idiots cram in at the back.

What I find more amusing in those cases is that some *guards* don't even consider that there's room at the front and declassify 1st anyway!

[1] My observation is that most people on peak-time commuter services are able-bodied middle-aged males, all of whom could walk to the front (or from the back on arrival) if they could be bothered to do so.

 

[swt_passenger]

We keep getting told that passenger numbers are increasing, yet why are we not seeing new stock built with future expansion built in. We see IET reducing carriages ( but increasing Knee chewing). elsewhere in Europe it seems future growth is taken into account, but in the UK it is the PEP formula ( Pack Em Perpendicular) formula. We have station platforms capable of long formations but new stock using less platform length .

Please explain “increasing knee chewing”.
I hope you aren’t trying to say that IET has inadequate legroom. Because that modern railway myth has been shot down previously.

 

[HSTEd]

Well if trains were fixed formations with full width corridor connections inside units, like S-stock, it would be a lot easier to persuade people to move down the train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well if trains were fixed formations with full width corridor connections inside units, like S-stock, it would be a lot easier to persuade people to move down the train.

That is very true, and is why most (though not quite all) new-build commuter stock is going that way. I think for instance a lot of people think of 350s that you can't get through the cab (you can) and others think that once you get to 1st that's the end of Standard. And to be honest probably also if you're walking through 350/2 coaches than once you get to a /1 that's 1st.

 

[delt1c]

Please explain “increasing knee chewing”.
I hope you aren’t trying to say that IET has inadequate legroom. Because that modern railway myth has been shot down previously.

Cant quote on IET as have never used them, but on stock i have used with airline seats leg room seems to be reducing. As for Myths I leave that to sharp shooters to shoot at.

 

[swt_passenger]

Cant quote on IET as have never used them, but on stock i have used with airline seats leg room seems to be reducing. As for Myths I leave that to sharp shooters to shoot at.

The problem is that as you say you’ve never used them, so presumably have repeated hearsay, however people posting in the long running GWR Class 800 thread who have used them have said the legroom is about the only thing they’ve got right. The published spec available before they ever arrived gave detailed dimensions that showed they improved on HST seat spacing.

 

[delt1c]

The problem is that as you say you’ve never used them, so presumably have repeated hearsay, however people posting in the long running GWR Class 800 thread who have used them have said the legroom is about the only thing they’ve got right. The published spec available before they ever arrived gave detailed dimensions that showed they improved on HST seat spacing.

Coma ommited, was reffering to Unit lengths for IET and knee chewing in other units i have used. Hence the title of the thread

 

[Bald Rick]

I think perhaps the OP has missed the largest fleet renewal and expansion on the British railway in living memory (if not ever).

 

[alangla]

I think perhaps the OP has missed the largest fleet renewal and expansion on the British railway in living memory (if not ever).

I think the point was that train formations after the renewal won’t be any longer than they were before & not as long as they could be given the platform lengths. Personally & locally, I’d disagree - the Queen Street low level route is heading for being predominantly 6 cars and the default E&G or SDA formation is longer than ever post electrification. There does appear to be a specific issue in Northern land of long platforms and piddly little trains, though the 319s are generally longer than their predecessors and the 2nd hand 156/158/170s have brought in more 23m vehicles to replace Pacers.

 

[Wtloild]

There does appear to be a specific issue in Northern land of long platforms and piddly little trains,

There's a lot of inconsistency in platform-lengths in Northern-land.
Certainly plenty of piddly platforms on various routes in Lancashire.

 

[bramling]

I think perhaps the OP has missed the largest fleet renewal and expansion on the British railway in living memory (if not ever).

If only it was going so far as to *add* lots of capacity across the board. Whilst there are some areas where the extra capacity will genuinely be welcome, in other areas it seems to be replacement for the sake of it. The situation with fleets like the 707s, 379s, 350/2s to name but a few is approaching lunacy.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think the point was that train formations after the renewal won’t be any longer than they were before & not as long as they could be given the platform lengths. Personally & locally, I’d disagree - the Queen Street low level route is heading for being predominantly 6 cars and the default E&G or SDA formation is longer than ever post electrification. There does appear to be a specific issue in Northern land of long platforms and piddly little trains, though the 319s are generally longer than their predecessors and the 2nd hand 156/158/170s have brought in more 23m vehicles to replace Pacers.

Well quite. I was on a 260m long train into Paddington yesterday, with 630 seats on it in 10 coaches which used to be a 224m train with 470 seats on it in 8 coaches.

 

[delt1c]

I think perhaps the OP has missed the largest fleet renewal and expansion on the British railway in living memory (if not ever).

I would never have noticed

 

[6Gman]

Money.

Buying 4-car units costs more than buying 3-car units. Buying 3-car units more than 2-car.

So schemes are based on the minimum quantity of stock.

 

[AM9]

Money.

Buying 4-car units costs more than buying 3-car units. Buying 3-car units more than 2-car.

So schemes are based on the minimum quantity of stock.

But how much more does it cost to buy and operate two two-car units over one four-car one (of equivalent total capacity and performance)? And how many years full operation at that extra staffing level compared with a basic platform extension of no more than 50m at the stations that currently can't handle a 80-92m train? On a more heavily used route, the same question would apply, but for 3-car vs 6-car or even 4-car vs 8-car.

 

[smsm1]

With Greater Anglia's fleet refresh, all the regional trains will be 3 or 4 car instead of the 1, 2, or 3 car trains that existed before, all with an equal or higher seating and cycle capacity on all the new trains. So there is an equal or larger capacity than before. This is in part to help cope with potential future demand.

 

[Chris125]

We keep getting told that passenger numbers are increasing, yet why are we not seeing new stock built with future expansion built in. We see IET reducing carriages ( but increasing Knee chewing).

AFAIK every IET fleet provides an increase in carriages and overall capacity over the trains being replaced.

 

[a_c_skinner]

As I've observed before you've only to see some Northern services to know that ridership is limited by loadings. I've already shared a sneaking suspicion that we'd get payback, or a decent proportion of payback for investment in more capacity. I'd hoped the huge number of potential donors for the 769 programme might lead there.

 

[6Gman]

But how much more does it cost to buy and operate two two-car units over one four-car one (of equivalent total capacity and performance)? And how many years full operation at that extra staffing level compared with a basic platform extension of no more than 50m at the stations that currently can't handle a 80-92m train? On a more heavily used route, the same question would apply, but for 3-car vs 6-car or even 4-car vs 8-car.

One 4-car will be better than 2 2-car units but only if you never need to use them as separate units.

But paying for (e.g.) 52 vehicles for a franchise will always cost more than 46. So the DfT and the franchisee both have an interest in minimising the outlay.

 

[delt1c]

AFAIK every IET fleet provides an increase in carriages and overall capacity over the trains being replaced.

How long till we see 5 car IEP's running singly where a full HST used to operate

 

[AndrewE]

How long till we see 5 car IEP's running singly where a full HST used to operate

It's already happened to me... Last spring I was going to Bristol from Paddington, at departure time it was announced that there was a fault on the rear unit so we were delayed while everyone was packed into the front unit: cue delay and missed connection /disrupted day for me and my party.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It's already happened to me... Last spring I was going to Bristol from Paddington, at departure time it was announced that there was a fault on the rear unit so we were delayed while everyone was packed into the front unit: cue delay and missed connection /disrupted day for me and my party.

Surely this is better than it would have been with an HST. That would have been an out and out cancellation if it had been an HST.

 

[AM9]

It's already happened to me... Last spring I was going to Bristol from Paddington, at departure time it was announced that there was a fault on the rear unit so we were delayed while everyone was packed into the front unit: cue delay and missed connection /disrupted day for me and my party.

Which is not an answer to the question: "How long till we see 5 car IEP's running singly where a full HST used to operate". That would (hopefully) not be a normal change to the provisioned rolling stock as it was a result of a failure. As ForTheLoveOf says the HST situation would be no train at all, - and a greater chance of failure anyway!

 

[GreatAuk]

With Greater Anglia's fleet refresh, all the regional trains will be 3 or 4 car instead of the 1, 2, or 3 car trains that existed before, all with an equal or higher seating and cycle capacity on all the new trains. So there is an equal or larger capacity than before. This is in part to help cope with potential future demand.

I quite agree with OP here - to me it seems mad that there are 2 car services which have to leave people behind due to overcrowding. It's almost as though they're trying to artificially discourage ridership on some services. Something like what's happened on Greater Anglia is what the Northern franchise needs imo (although perhaps with some planning lessons learnt!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I quite agree with OP here - to me it seems mad that there are 2 car services which have to leave people behind due to overcrowding. It's almost as though they're trying to artificially discourage ridership on some services. Something like what's happened on Greater Anglia is what the Northern franchise needs imo (although perhaps with some planning lessons learnt!)

It's what most TOCs need. Witnessed an XC leave people behind at New St today (though they'd have got on if the inconsiderate people already on had moved down a bit - instead, one of them was just holding down the close button). This really isn't on. Not only is it bad for those using the trains, it's also suppressing demand.