Croydon Tram Crash

[amcluesent]

What was effectively a news black-out for 5 hours was probably due to a D-Notice being issued as the authorities were on high-alert with the US election, ready for a wave of CBRN mass-casualty events

 

[infobleep]

Not necessarily, track might have been washed away in the heavy rain, the train may have struck a foreign object, the wheels might have failed.



Yes, that was an unforgivable decision made by the prosecutors, robbing the poor families of justice and answers and one that hopefully will never be repeated.

Does the fact that that occurred in Scotland make a difference? As Scottish law isn't the same as English law.

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[amcluesent]

As Scottish law isn't the same as English law.

That's correct, numerous differences; Scottish jurisprudence is rooted in Napoleonic law.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Would a tram have a dead man's handle and/or something on the lines of the vigilance device found on stock on "heavy railways"?

 

[Antman]

But just because you can do something doesn't necessarily mean that you should. I appreciate that there are advantages in 90-degree bends for on-street sections (where speed is going to be restricted anyway) but on the faster open country sections surely something more akin to heavy rail alignment would be appropriate to allow trams to maintain 40-50mph without constant deceleration and acceleration. I'm still convinced that many speed restrictions could have been planned out of light rail systems (though it probably is too late to do much about it now).

Tight bends are, like most other things, perfectly safe if used correctly although ideally there would be some sort of fail safe in situ that brings the tram to a halt if speed hasn't been sufficiently reduced on approach.

Certainly at Sandilands space was so limited that the back gardens of adjacent houses had to be used, one of which is now a nursery as mentioned in a previous post.

 

[vrbarreto]

Would a tram have a dead man's handle and/or something on the lines of the vigilance device found on stock on "heavy railways"?

The cab is described here:

https://www.croydon-tramlink.co.uk/info/trams/control.shtml

Looks like a side stick with accelerate and decelerate?

 

[steamybrian]

................ I believe the theoretical top speed of these trams is 50 mph, not that they should get anywhere near approaching that speed at any point ever. ................

I have travelled many times on the Croydon Tram system and can confirm that there are many stretches where the trams do reach around 50mph.
The downhill section from the Gravel Hill/ Coombe Lane roundabout to Gravel Hill certainly is a racing stretch and have sat behind the driver and watched the speedo.
The opposite direction downhill through Shirley Hills to Lloyd Park
Along the straight sections of the old West Croydon to Wimbledon railway route.

 

[infobleep]

It was not just the BBC, however I was disappointed with their 6:00 News; They gave us 30-minutes of the US Election then a brief mention of the tram crash at about 6:35. By that time we knew there were at least 7 dead and many injured.

My point was they spend so much time reporting things like this normally, even when they don't know if anyone has died, that I just expected a mention of it sooner on their News Channel and also more of a mention on their Five Live station.

The fact I was expecting to hear more about it suggests that the BBC have given me the impression that they cover stories such as this in more detail, even when the detail doesn't exist. One can debate whether they should do that but I an lead into thinking that they do.

When they suddenly don't it then doesn't seem right. If it is right then it suggests what they do normally isn't what they should be doing.

I remember when the Tsunami hit Asia. It was over Christmas. Hardly any reporting of such a major natural disaster. A year or two later I saw a moving channel 4 documentary on it. Heartbreaking what happened to people. It highlighted to me how we are just mire blips when a big natural disaster hits.

When Guildford for flooding two years ago, hardly any reporting because it was Christmas eve. Clesrly people want time off at Christmas so they have a skelton number of people working.

However yesterday wasn't Christmas and given how much time they devote to things in their news channel normally, I just expected a mention of it.

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What was effectively a news black-out for 5 hours was probably due to a D-Notice being issued as the authorities were on high-alert with the US election, ready for a wave of CBRN mass-casualty events

Would the BBC be allowed to report later on that a D notice had been issued, as a way of explaining why they didn't cover it differently?

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[Domh245]

The cab is described here:

https://www.croydon-tramlink.co.uk/info/trams/control.shtml

Looks like a side stick with accelerate and decelerate?

And as I said earlier, it has to be depressed as a deadman's switch mechanism. Letting go of it will sound an alarm which must be cancelled quickly to avoid a brake application

 

[daikilo]

On a general point, if someone like a driver gets arrested, whilst the police determine what happened, do they get councilling?

Without knowing the exact circumstaces, here are some indications.

Firstly, in general there need to be reasonable grounds for an "arrest", and causing death is probably one, if there is evidence that the driver's in/actions may have contributed.

As to counselling, the police making the arrest will advise the person of their legal rights. As the driver was at work, this may include the right to meet with an employer representative and/or possibly (in the presence of) a legal counsel. A driver may also have a right to counsel if s/he shows evidence of traumatic distress (however, this may be in the presence of others).

 

[neonison]

What was effectively a news black-out for 5 hours was probably due to a D-Notice being issued as the authorities were on high-alert with the US election, ready for a wave of CBRN mass-casualty events

A D-Notice is concerned with National Security. It hardly applies to a tram-crash in Croydon.

 

[2HAP]

Those saying "its just a tram crash" would do well to remember that there has only been one in the UK with a higher death toll.

 

[Deepgreen]

You see mate that wasn't the basis of my point. My sympathy goes to those affected and I am sure following a thorough investigation it will never happen again under the same circumstances.

Well, 'mate', you made your point very badly, as the basis of what you wrote was that you couldn't see why it would make national news. I ventured that a public transport accident in which many died would very obviously be national news. None of what you have just written here about an investigation was included in your earlier 'point'.

 

[Antman]

Those saying "its just a tram crash" would do well to remember that there has only been one in the UK with a higher death toll.

And who exactly said that?

There hasn't been any at all in the UK, involving fatalities of passengers, for more than half a century.

 

[Deepgreen]

It's incredible is this day and age that the lives of dozens relies on an individual remaining alert at all times; we've had full automation on the DLR for years and years!

It seem all too likely that investigation of all the trams data logs will show over-speeding had become habituated and accepted

Overall, hugely more transport operations rely on alert drivers than do not - buses, coaches, lorries, cars, ships, aircraft and so on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those saying "its just a tram crash" would do well to remember that there has only been one in the UK with a higher death toll.

I don't think that's the point. The point was that it isn't anything to do with potential terrorist attacks in the USA, nor is there any reason it would be subject to a news blackout.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

This is a fairly confined spot. As mentioned up-thread the tramline transfers from Addiscombe Road, splits into two branches and one goes each way along the former railway line. Just to the north is the bridge under Addiscombe Road and just to the south is the tunnel, so the tracks had to turn 90 degrees in the limited space in between resulting in some tight curves. At least one of these features would have had to be demolished to create a more gentle turn, and there would still be the hazards of the junction itself and the pedestrian crossings at the tramstop.

There are many sections of Croydon and other tramways, particularly those on former railways, where system maximum speeds (typically 70-80km/h) are possible. However the frequent stops mean it is uncommon to sustain top speed for more than a minute or so even on an ideal alignment.

The principle of driving on sight, combined with several braking systems that are normally very effective, have resulted to date in a very safe mode of transport - people are hit by trams from time to time and this can be nasty but I suspect a bus operator with similar vehicle mileage would have a similar rate of accidents.

However this accident may on its own be enough to suggest that some sort of enforcement is reasonably practicable where a long fast off-street section leads directly into a tight curve. A similar one at Werneth on Metrolink has, I believe, a large black and white chevron sign as used on roundabouts and tight bends on roads. No tramway has any sort of speed enforcement system but it wouldn't be particularly difficult to add something to monitor these high-risk speed transitions (possibly GPS-based rather than using trackside hardware like TPWS).

Well, goes back to my point that some of the tight curves could have been planned out at the very early stages of a tramway/light rail project - even if it did mean spending a bit more money on property or land acquisition.

A 12mph restriction is very severe, even where the line speed is limited to 50mph, and would be almost unknown in heavy rail operation (equivalent to having a 40mph curve in the middle of a 180mph high speed line). Quite apart from the potential safety issues, all the constant acceleration and braking must push up operating costs and does nothing for passenger comfort.

I get the impression that light rail systems are planned by people with a road engineering rather than a rail background, and possibly under pressure from the bean counters not to exceed first construction cost budgets, even though it has longer term cost implications.

Given that we are where we are with line alignments, a GPS-based system speed warning/alert is an interesting idea. However, would it be reliable enough? In the short term, something based on TPWS could presumably be used almost off the shelf and wouldn't need extensive testing.
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Tight bends are, like most other things, perfectly safe if used correctly although ideally there would be some sort of fail safe in situ that brings the tram to a halt if speed hasn't been sufficiently reduced on approach.

Certainly at Sandilands space was so limited that the back gardens of adjacent houses had to be used, one of which is now a nursery as mentioned in a previous post.

I would say that if there is a restriction a quarter of the prevailing line speed, some sort of speed control system is absolutely essential. Sooner or later, a driver is going to get things badly wrong - as British Rail learned through bitter experience at Morpeth.

 

[Deepgreen]

I'm not sure anyone has mentioned the maximum permitted speed on this curve - it is 25 km per hour, equating to 16 mph. I believe at the time of the accident it would still have been pretty dark given the time of year, also the weather conditions. The BTP have stated the tram was moving 'considerably in excess' of this speed. I believe the theoretical top speed of these trams is 50 mph, not that they should get anywhere near approaching that speed at any point ever. I also know from having been in Croydon by sheer chance when the first-ever public tram went through that there was almost a tragic accident by the almshouses at the end of George Street when a toddler ran out in front of it - only the tram bell, which was an afterthought to the original plan, being deployed saved him being struck.

Where the line speed limit is 50mph, why do you state that a tram should never, ever get anywhere near that permitted speed?

 

[BestWestern]

And who exactly said that?

There hasn't been any at all in the UK, involving fatalities of passengers, for more than half a century.

Was that one featured on the 'Coronation Street' documentary not real, then....?

 

[Trainfan344]

This youtube video (should start at 13:27) shows the run through the tunnel before approaching the bend (it's a bit of a sharp one) This might help you understand the geography of the incident.

https://youtu.be/lhuogCAh6Pg?t=807

 

[Rogmi]

This OS map from NLS shows the area before the new Sandilands Junction and track to Sandilands was installed. The map can be scrolled
Drag the "Change transparency of overlay button (bottom left) to superimpose a satellite view.
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/index.cfm#zoom=18&lat=51.3745&lon=-0.0769&layers=173&b=1

Location on the CartoMetro map:
http://carto.metro.free.fr/cartes/m....php?gpslat=51.374134&gpslon=-0.075212&zoom=5

 

[bengley]

It's incredible is this day and age that the lives of dozens relies on an individual remaining alert at all times; we've had full automation on the DLR for years and years!

It seem all too likely that investigation of all the trams data logs will show over-speeding had become habituated and accepted

You can't have automation on a tram which runs on the street. All that is needed is some kind of safety system, not automation.

 

[neonison]

You can't have automation on a tram which runs on the street. All that is needed is some kind of safety system, not automation.

Some such as Google and Tesla believe that self-driving technology has already been developed. Having removed one degree of freedom - steering - surely trams could be even more easily be made autonomous?

 

[bengley]

Some such as Google and Tesla believe that self-driving technology has already been developed. Having removed one degree of freedom - steering - surely trams could be even more easily be made autonomous?

Only recently Tesla introduced a software update which requires drivers to keep their hands on the wheel or the automation cuts out, due to several accidents related to drivers not paying attention.

This means, to me at least, that the technology is not reliable enough to be trusted when hazards such as pedestrians and other vehicles are involved. There is no harm in having a driver in control of the tram, but safeguards are essential to prevent the occasional human error.

 

[Johnuk123]

What was effectively a news black-out for 5 hours was probably due to a D-Notice being issued as the authorities were on high-alert with the US election, ready for a wave of CBRN mass-casualty events

They have been called DA-Notices for many years now, they're only advisory and would never be issued for such a thing as this as they're only for defence issues.

 

[45669]

What was effectively a news black-out for 5 hours was probably due to a D-Notice being issued as the authorities were on high-alert with the US election, ready for a wave of CBRN mass-casualty events

If there was a news black out, how come it was mention on the Classic FM news yesterday morning? It was the second item after the result of the election in America.

 

[vrbarreto]

If there was a news black out, how come it was mention on the Classic FM news yesterday morning? It was the second item after the result of the election in America.

The first mention of it I saw online was at 7.15am as I was trying to get to East Croydon..

I have a question.. Is the deadman's switch a push down or is it a 'hand on' ?

With the push down if someone were to slump onto the control would the tram still continue?

 

[Scott M]

This youtube video (should start at 13:27) shows the run through the tunnel before approaching the bend (it's a bit of a sharp one) This might help you understand the geography of the incident.

https://youtu.be/lhuogCAh6Pg?t=807

After watching that video my first thought was "Accident waiting to happen". Arguably negligence to have a curve that tight after a fast straight with no form of speed control in place.

 

[Antman]

It's incredible is this day and age that the lives of dozens relies on an individual remaining alert at all times; we've had full automation on the DLR for years and years!

It seem all too likely that investigation of all the trams data logs will show over-speeding had become habituated and accepted

Do you have any reason to say that or is it just some wild guess?
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Was that one featured on the 'Coronation Street' documentary not real, then....?

Apologies if I've shattered any illusions!

 

[QueensCurve]

A 12mph restriction is very severe, even where the line speed is limited to 50mph, and would be almost unknown in heavy rail operation (equivalent to having a 40mph curve in the middle of a 180mph high speed line). Quite apart from the potential safety issues, all the constant acceleration and braking must push up operating costs and does nothing for passenger comfort.

10mph turnouts are far from rare with many more at 15mph or 20mph