Croydon Tram Crash

[Antman]

I agree with you totally.

And as I yesterday my thoughts go out to all those involved.

On a general point, if someone like a driver gets arrested, whilst the police determine what happened, do they get councilling?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

The driver has now been released on police bail as would be expected in the circumstances.

 

[507 001]

The first mention of it I saw online was at 7.15am as I was trying to get to East Croydon..

I have a question.. Is the deadman's switch a push down or is it a 'hand on' ?

With the push down if someone were to slump onto the control would the tram still continue?

It's a push down, but it's quite lightly sprung. At the same time however, it is quite sensitive.

 

[gsnedders]

You can't have automation on a tram which runs on the street. All that is needed is some kind of safety system, not automation.

My understanding is that a number of signalling companies now sell things varying from ATP (for both on-street and segregated running) to ATO (for segregated running) for light rail systems.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

10mph turnouts are far from rare with many more at 15mph or 20mph

OK, yes, I was thinking more of restrictions in the middle of plain line. Turnouts would in any case be protected by approach-controlled signals or similar.
CL

 

[Bertiethebobby]

Tragically, a vehicle sliding at speed on its side is one scenario where the passengers are particularly vulnerable. Passengers would be vulnerable to external objects entering the vehicle (track components and OHLE are particular hazards), as well as the obvious risk of being ejected from the protection of the vehicle body. Basically, in this sort of situation, a lot is down to luck of positioning - if the glass breaks adjacent to where you are located then you are highly vulnerable.

A similar scenario occurred in the Lockington level crossing derailment in the 1980s. In that instance, a 1st-generation DMU derailed violently at speed, one of the vehicles overturned and slid along the ground, resulting in a high level of fatalities/injuries. Like today's tragic accident, the vehicle structures survived the accident pretty much intact, yet the death/injury toll was high. I'd suggest vulnerability increases if the vehicle is more crowded, as people being thrown about inside the vehicle increase the likelihood of people being ejected outside the vehicle. All in all a terrible scenario to be involved in.

Yes indeed and a scenario that is too horrible to even think about.

Next time I catch a Pendolino or Voyager I shall contemplate the reason why I haven't got much of a window to look out of.

 

[AlterEgo]

After watching that video my first thought was "Accident waiting to happen". Arguably negligence to have a curve that tight after a fast straight with no form of speed control in place.

A tram is driven on sight with a braking potential similar to a conventional road vehicle.

Should we engineer all sharp turns out of 40/50mph roads in case a bus driver "has a blackout"?

 

[Groningen]

It happened at 6:00 in the morning and still dark. So maybe the driver did not know where he was.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes indeed and a scenario that is too horrible to even think about.

Next time I catch a Pendolino or Voyager I shall contemplate the reason why I haven't got much of a window to look out of.

OT, but Voyagers have *massive* windows. The reason you don't get one to look out from some seats is a poorly designed seating layout, not structural reasons.

Pendolinos are very structurally strong, though.

Mind you, the tram does not appear to have deformed substantially if at all, so I don't think there's a problem there. If the windows broke, they perhaps need to be replaced with laminated glass etc.

 

[westcoaster]

A tram is driven on sight with a braking potential similar to a conventional road vehicle.

Should we engineer all sharp turns out of 40/50mph roads in case a bus driver "has a blackout"?

pic from the daily mail

If you look at some of the pictures from the news report you can see a signal on the bend, protecting the junction. I've circled it in the attached image.

 

[RobShipway]

After watching that video my first thought was "Accident waiting to happen". Arguably negligence to have a curve that tight after a fast straight with no form of speed control in place.

I have to agree, I would have thought that they should be a speed warning sign for the bend, as have for national rail within the tunnel prior to reaching the bend?

A tram is driven on sight with a braking potential similar to a conventional road vehicle.

Should we engineer all sharp turns out of 40/50mph roads in case a bus driver "has a blackout"?

Any similar roads that prior to a bend that would have been national speed limit that I have driven on, have had 40mph signs just on entering the corner to go round the sharp bend in the road, because of accidents that have happened at speed previously.

Also, the issue is not just if a driver has a blackout. Too higher speeds can be reached and probably have been in the Croydon Trams when the drivers have been alert as I suspect that the braking has been done as they are going round the bend as per the Youtube video, rather than braking down to slower speed towards the end of the tunnel as I would expect the driver to be doing.

 

[Domh245]

If you look at some of the pictures from the news report you can see a signal on the bend, protecting the junction. I've circled it in the attached image.

IIRC the signal just indicates that the junction has been set correctly, and it certainly doesn't have any kind of trainstop equipment.

I have to agree, I would have thought that they should be a speed warning sign for the bend, as have for national rail within the tunnel prior to reaching the bend?

But why would they need a warning sign. The driver should know that the speed restriction is coming up, and be able to use local landmarks (like the tunnels) to identify braking points. A warning board doesn't add anything to improve safety.

 

[Deepgreen]

A tram is driven on sight with a braking potential similar to a conventional road vehicle.

Should we engineer all sharp turns out of 40/50mph roads in case a bus driver "has a blackout"?

Impractical. It is a valid point, though, that very sharp curves adjacent to long fast stretches of route (compounded by being in tunnel close to the curve) have the potential to pose a risk of speed/track geometry misjudgement by the driver. The difference with light rail (being new rather than 'legacy') is that the geometry can be determined in the planning stage so as to minimise risk, OR an unavoidably 'dangerous' layout can have the risks mitigated via speed/approach control, but neither appears to have been done here. I also don't know if check rails were considered for such sharp curves, not that they would have made much difference at the likely speed involved, but they might be helpful at lower, but still excessive, speeds.
Of course, we only have speculation concerning a possible 'blackout' so far, but such events are very hard to account for without full automatic safety systems being installed, including a 'deadman' facility that is properly fail-safe.

 

[RobShipway]

IIRC the signal just indicates that the junction has been set correctly, and it certainly doesn't have any kind of trainstop equipment.



But why would they need a warning sign. The driver should know that the speed restriction is coming up, and be able to use local landmarks (like the tunnels) to identify braking points. A warning board doesn't add anything to improve safety.

Then explain to me why in similar circumstances you have a speed warning sign on the national rail, surely the drivers on the national rail route know when to be braking as well?

 

[Deepgreen]

IIRC the signal just indicates that the junction has been set correctly, and it certainly doesn't have any kind of trainstop equipment.



But why would they need a warning sign. The driver should know that the speed restriction is coming up, and be able to use local landmarks (like the tunnels) to identify braking points. A warning board doesn't add anything to improve safety.

Conversely, why would a sign NOT be provided? If a tram/train is manually-controlled and the line speed changes dramatically, a sign is surely vital to ensure the correct speed is adhered to at the right place, even if only as a reminder/confirmation to the driver. It is arguable that an automatic system does not need signs, but I don't subscribe to the argument that geographical route knowledge alone is enough to ensure perfect speed profiles are maintained under a manual driving regime.

 

[QueensCurve]

Then explain to me why in similar circumstances you have a speed warning sign on the national rail, surely the drivers on the national rail route know when to be braking as well?

The LNER thought speed limit boards would be a good idea.

 

[neonison]

But why would they need a warning sign. The driver should know that the speed restriction is coming up, and be able to use local landmarks (like the tunnels) to identify braking points. A warning board doesn't add anything to improve safety.

The 20 kph diamond becomes visible only at 13:57 in the YouTube clip which does mean that some prior route knowledge would be necessary to slow from 80kph on leaving the tunnel. The 'correct' way to drive a road vehicle is to drive only as fast as you are able see to stop safely on one's own side of the road.

 

[Tracked]

A couple of people are suggesting the tram sped up just before the crash:

http://bbc.in/2g0P3yw
(audio) - the wife of someone in the tram, saying her husband had said it seemed to speed up just before the curve


http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...rriages-somersaulted-off-tracks-a3392411.html

Mr Ajibola said: “I thought he (the driver) was going to stop but he couldn’t so he increased the speed. As soon as we got towards the end he increased the speed up and it somersaulted one, two, three and he landed at the other side.”

 

[w0033944]

The 20 kph diamond becomes visible only at 13:57 in the YouTube clip which does mean that some prior route knowledge would be necessary to slow from 80kph on leaving the tunnel. The 'correct' way to drive a road vehicle is to drive only as fast as you are able see to stop safely on one's own side of the road.

Further to this point, it occurs to me on viewing the video that, had a tram become stranded just around the curve, any excessive speed which did not cause derailment might well result in a collision. Given that heavy rail spent the best part of a century following the Armagh diaster working towards preventing such an incident, the haphazard method of working in this case seems remarkable. Indeed, the level of illumination in the tunnels appears to be barely sufficient for a stopped tram to be sighted in time for the driver of a following unit running at linespeed to stop, though I admit to not being conversant with the effect that tram braking systems have on stopping distances as compared with heavy rail.

 

[Antman]

It happened at 6:00 in the morning and still dark. So maybe the driver did not know where he was.

There are no other tunnels on the network and I'm sure drivers are quite used to driving in the dark.

 

[Deepgreen]

The statement by the witness that the driver couldn't stop SO he sped up, is bizarre - why would the only option be to speed up if one cannot stop? A mis-quote perhaps?
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There are no other tunnels on the network and I'm sure drivers are quite used to driving in the dark.

One would assume so!

 

[neonison]

A period of higher speed running with limited landmarks leading to a severe curve has strong parallels with Santiago de Compostela. In that case I do recall there was to TPWS-type system.

The run from Freehold to Westwood on Manchester's Metrolink is blessed with a similarly sharp curve but lower approach speed and as others have remarked a large chevron warning board.

 

[bengley]

The fact the driver has been released on bail until May could suggest there is no case for him to answer.

If he could be charged he would likely have been charged by now or if the Police felt there were other offences committed, he would probably have been bailed until a much earlier date than May (6 months from now)

 

[D1009]

It seem all too likely that investigation of all the trams data logs will show over-speeding had become habituated and accepted

Like others, I'd like to know on what basis you are alleging this. If what you are saying is correct then the company's safety management will be called into question. People have said that it feels as though trams regularly exceed 20 km/h there, but that could simply be put down to the severity of the curve.

 

[Zoidberg]

The fact the driver has been released on bail until May could suggest there is no case for him to answer.

If he could be charged he would likely have been charged by now or if the Police felt there were other offences committed, he would probably have been bailed until a much earlier date than May (6 months from now)

I hope that you are right in terms of having no case to answer, but the bail process is to keep someone on the hook while enquiries to determine whether or not a charge should be laid continue to be made.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Unconfirmed report is that the driver blacked out moments before the incident (heard on BBC London)

 

[AlterEgo]

I hope that you are right in terms of having no case to answer, but the bail process is to keep someone on the hook while enquiries to determine whether or not a charge should be laid continue to be made.

Indeed, and collecting evidence from incidents like this takes a very long time.

 

[Antman]

The fact the driver has been released on bail until May could suggest there is no case for him to answer.

If he could be charged he would likely have been charged by now or if the Police felt there were other offences committed, he would probably have been bailed until a much earlier date than May (6 months from now)

There is no way he would have been charged now, the investigation is likely to take months. He would have been released on police bail in any case.
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Like others, I'd like to know on what basis you are alleging this. If what you are saying is correct then the company's safety management will be called into question. People have said that it feels as though trams regularly exceed 20 km/h there, but that could simply be put down to the severity of the curve.

I think a lot of people are jumping on the bandwagon, I've been on numerous trams around that curve and I've never felt the speed was excessive.

 

[Robertj21a]

There is no way he would have been charged now, the investigation is likely to take months. He would have been released on police bail in any case.
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I think a lot of people are jumping on the bandwagon, I've been on numerous trams around that curve and I've never felt the speed was excessive.

Indeed. My trips over that section are only notable as I recognise that the tram is going particularly slowly.

 

[richw]

The fact the driver has been released on bail until May could suggest there is no case for him to answer.

If he could be charged he would likely have been charged by now or if the Police felt there were other offences committed, he would probably have been bailed until a much earlier date than May (6 months from now)

A 6 month bail is normal in death by dangerous driving cases a google search reveals for car drivers.

 

[QueensCurve]

The BBCPM programme is featuring a survivor of the tram crash this evening.