Crossrail - Through Running confirmed for November

[ijmad]

And heard a train, over shot Paddington platform, so they had to go to Westborne Park and then straight back again.

Yikes, how does that happen! Was it in service, were passengers carried through the reversing siding?

 

[matt_world2004]

Caught up in disruption, at Paddington, so just been grab Costa and Upper Crust Baguette, before carry on running around, was about 15-20 mins wait for Heathrow train.

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And heard a train, over shot Paddington platform, so they had to go to Westborne Park and then straight back again.

That's very worrying considering they are supposed to be automatic in the core and with the potential to run at very close headways

 

[Failed Unit]

This morning probably isn't a fair comparison to how things are going to be as many TOCs are recovering from the strike that didn't happen (For example GTR services were much busier into Farringdon this morning because of the late start, so it will be difficult to tell what the level of interchange traffic really is)

Moorgate didn't look too bad this morning in terms of congestion, but it certainly will be interesting in the evening.

One thing I did overhear was a passenger at the Moorgate gate expecting to be walking out a Liverpool Street. I assume the gatelines will charge the same whichever end you leave (My London Terminals ticket is Valid to Moorgate but not to Liverpool Street, but in the case of exiting the Cross-Rail platforms it shouldn't matter I assume). People will work this out for themselves in time, but I am sure many people will do that until they are used to it. On the positive side it may make some people happy if they were wanting a shorter walk in the rail.

As others have observed, be interesting how many people coming from the East continued on the tube after Liverpool Street, and if the new interchanges will reduce the congestion on the cross rail platforms.

 

[Watershed]

Decidedly not whelmed by the experience this morning, after a 4-minute stand just outside the portal at Paddington for no apparent reason.

The reason has only been mentioned about 10 times in this thread so far

 

[Horizon22]

It's not a competitor and people don't only go to Canary Wharf from the west.

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Those dwells are scheduled, but will disappear in May. Something to do with Network Rail.

Nothing to do with “Network Rail”. Ultimately to sync up both the central timetable at an even headway and those from the GWML and GEML outside a major timetable recast (May or December), something had to give. December is too soon with the uncertainty around opening, so May ‘23 it is.

That was trains from the West having to wait time. It’s certainly far from ideal, but as has been explained many many times in this thread, it is “temporary” (6 months)

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Now that could've been avoided if they had scrolled all stations across the screens onboard...

Seems to be a modern train phenomenon: 700, 707, 710, 745/755 and 345s all do this.

 

[matt_world2004]

I do wonder whether a recorded, official announcement should have been done to update passengers when they are onboard and sitting outside Paddington during a dwell.

Tfl has said there will be and the pis has space for one but no announcement

 

[Horizon22]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Nov 2022 ==

And heard a train, over shot Paddington platform, so they had to go to Westborne Park and then straight back again.

That seems unlikely.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I've noticed another thing that to my mind shows complete lack of consideration to passengers in station design: No departure screens in the central concourse between the platforms at Tottenham Court Road. This means that if there's a train at a platform, people at the concourse can see that train, but can't see where it's going. The entirely predictable result is lots of people running the considerable distance from the concourse to the platform only to discover that it's not their train anyway.

Wasn't a problem before Sunday because every train would have been going to the same place, but now anyone travelling to destinations beyond Paddington or Whitechapel has at most a 50% chance of any train being the correct train.

 

[Horizon22]

I've noticed another thing that to my mind shows complete lack of consideration to passengers in station design: No departure screens in the central concourse between the platforms at Tottenham Court Road. This means that if there's a train at a platform, people at the concourse can see that train, but can't see where it's going. The entirely predictable result is lots of people running the considerable distance from the concourse to the platform only to discover that it's not their train anyway.

Wasn't a problem before Sunday because every train would have been going to the same place, but now anyone travelling to destinations beyond Paddington or Whitechapel has at most a 50% chance of any train being the correct train.

Fairly sure the design at TCR is standard TfL “trickery”; they don’t want people heading directly left or right but instead to follow the signs accordingly. Of course you can only change passenger behaviour so much!

No central passageways have departure screens. It’s a relatively dramatic change to the timetable and will take a few weeks to bed in across the whole network I imagine.

 

[The Quincunx]

The reason has only been mentioned about 10 times in this thread so far

The tone of the driver's announcements suggested that it was not expected. If it is a scheduled pause, why not simply tell us?

 

[Goldfish62]

Tfl has said there will be and the pis has space for one but no announcement

On both trains I travelled on on Sunday the driver made an appropriate announcement.

 

[matt_world2004]

The tone of the driver's announcements suggested that it was not expected. If it is a scheduled pause, why not simply tell us?

You can see on real time trains whether it is planned or not.

 

[thomalex]

You

Decidedly not whelmed by the experience this morning, after a 4-minute stand just outside the portal at Paddington for no apparent reason.

That’s how it’ll be until next May apparently, anything from a 0 to 7 minute wait which is due to trains turning back at Paddington

 

[LLivery]

Seems to be a modern train phenomenon: 700, 707, 710, 745/755 and 345s all do this.

I'm confused, the TfL stock don't do this, no? I would love to know TfL's reasoning for it.

I've noticed another thing that to my mind shows complete lack of consideration to passengers in station design: No departure screens in the central concourse between the platforms at Tottenham Court Road. This means that if there's a train at a platform, people at the concourse can see that train, but can't see where it's going. The entirely predictable result is lots of people running the considerable distance from the concourse to the platform only to discover that it's not their train anyway.

Wasn't a problem before Sunday because every train would have been going to the same place, but now anyone travelling to destinations beyond Paddington or Whitechapel has at most a 50% chance of any train being the correct train.

It feels like they're trying to treat it as a Tube line, while saying it's not a Tube line.

At Farringdon, on the concourse (I haven't been since through running started) you've got a list of 'A-Z departures' which are Thameslink only, but it doesn't say it's Thameslink only. So you've got 'Abbey Wood' on the A-Z list, plus 'Abbey Wood' on the XR departure board right next to it. So it's entirely possible that you'll travel to Abbey Wood based on which board your eyes see first, rather than what's quicker and you could be forgiven for thinking there are no trains to XR stations because, apart from Abbey Wood, they're not listed. It's like not showing Thameslink on the main boards at St Pancras.

Screens at Whitechapel where LO meets XR would also be useful too

 

[cambsy]

I’ll try find out more details of the incident with over shoot etc, when pass back through Paddington, just heard from staff about it.

 

[Goldfish62]

I've noticed another thing that to my mind shows complete lack of consideration to passengers in station design: No departure screens in the central concourse between the platforms at Tottenham Court Road. This means that if there's a train at a platform, people at the concourse can see that train, but can't see where it's going. The entirely predictable result is lots of people running the considerable distance from the concourse to the platform only to discover that it's not their train anyway.

Wasn't a problem before Sunday because every train would have been going to the same place, but now anyone travelling to destinations beyond Paddington or Whitechapel has at most a 50% chance of any train being the correct train.

I can't think of that many locations on the Underground where there's a departure screen on the central passageway between platforms except where trains to the same destination(s) may be going from more than one platform.

I can't see what benefit it would have given that it wouldn't impact your choice of platform. In any case the screens above every platform door clearly display the destination.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I can't think of that many locations on the Underground where there's a departure screen on the central passageway between platforms except where trains to the same destination(s) may be going from more than one platform.

The difference is that, at almost any tube station, if you're in a position to see that there's a train at the platform, then you're probably only a few seconds away from the platform - so departure screens on the central passageway aren't going to make much difference. At Tottenham Court Road, if you're in the central concourse, then there is a very long straight passageway to the platform, which means that you can see a train at the platform, but it's still (I would guess) about 20-30 seconds walk to get to the train, and or to see where the train is going - so of course, almost everyone who can run is going to run down that pasageway because they don't know if it's their train or not. That makes at a much bigger inconvenience not to have screens in the concourse. It's a particular problem at TCR because of the wide separation between the tracks. I don't think it'd be an issue at the other EL stations.

Also, tube frequencies are much higher. There aren't that many places on the tube where just missing a train means a whole 15 minute wait till the next one.

I can't see what benefit it would have given that it wouldn't impact your choice of platform. In any case the screens above every platform door clearly display the destination.

The benefit of central departure screens at TCR would be that you wouldn't have people feeling that they have to run quite a long distance down a passageway for a train that they it turns out isn't their train anyway.

 

[matt_world2004]

I went on a train that was timed to wait 7 minutes at Westbourne Park today. The driver slowed the approach to the siding soon as he got off the main gwml just after old oak common. So the actual.wait time was 4.minutes. but there was a further two minute wait at Paddington. So the actual timetabled hesitation is closer to 9 minutes but can be psychologically reduced to about 4 minutes by slow driving.

 

[AM9]

It feels like they're trying to treat it as a Tube line, while saying it's not a Tube line.

Not really, - they are measures to nudge crowds in a certain way to avoid bottlenecks on the platforms. Happens on well engineered high volume metros all over the world.

 

[cambsy]

I have just checked what happen with incident earlier, and from what can ascertain, a Shenfield terminator at Paddington, stopped about a carriage short, from front end of platform, then crept forward to far, ie not stop in time.

The passengers couldn’t get off said train, as had crept too far forward, so we’re carried on to Ealing Broadway, where went out of service, he showed me this on TFL Trakanet, then it carried on out if service West Bound, where info for it stopped.

Think went back to Westbourne Park sidings, despite this disruption, my day so far been good, and enjoyed the through running.

 

[Sunil_P]

Also, tube frequencies are much higher. There aren't that many places on the tube where just missing a train means a whole 15 minute wait till the next one.

Not far from me, you've got Roding Valley, Chigwell and Grange Hill, all with 20 minute frequency each way, and then you have the even less frequent Chalfont to Chesham. Chalfont to Amersham at least has Chiltern back-up.

 

[ijmad]

I guess an undershoot as much better than an overshoot from a safety point of view

 

[thomalex]

The difference is that, at almost any tube station, if you're in a position to see that there's a train at the platform, then you're probably only a few seconds away from the platform - so departure screens on the central passageway aren't going to make much difference. At Tottenham Court Road, if you're in the central concourse, then there is a very long straight passageway to the platform, which means that you can see a train at the platform, but it's still (I would guess) about 20-30 seconds walk to get to the train, and or to see where the train is going - so of course, almost everyone who can run is going to run down that pasageway because they don't know if it's their train or not. That makes at a much bigger inconvenience not to have screens in the concourse. It's a particular problem at TCR because of the wide separation between the tracks. I don't think it'd be an issue at the other EL stations.

Also, tube frequencies are much higher. There aren't that many places on the tube where just missing a train means a whole 15 minute wait till the next one.



The benefit of central departure screens at TCR would be that you wouldn't have people feeling that they have to run quite a long distance down a passageway for a train that they it turns out isn't their train anyway.

People legging it down those connector passages does seem to be a staple of the Elizabeth, you see it quite often. It's a combination of the not quite tube frequencies and as you say the length of these passages which means you see the train is there quite some time before you are and you want to make sure you get it. Fortunately the long dwell times mean you can often still walk on but that doesn't stop some people running just to make sure they're onboard. And of course this has now been exacerbated now it's a bit of a lottery which train is departing.

There's only so much you can do to alleviate this given the design of the stations but certainly departure screens in the centre passageway would be very helpful and would no doubt save some running (and any potential accidents that could result!). It seems so obvious I can see them being added fairly soon, they could be added to one of the totems without much effort I would have thought.

 

[Deerfold]

Not far from me, you've got Roding Valley, Chigwell and Grange Hill, all with 20 minute frequency each way, and then you have the even less frequent Chalfont to Chesham. Chalfont to Amersham at least has Chiltern back-up.

So, not many places?

 

[Taunton]

I can't think of that many locations on the Underground where there's a departure screen on the central passageway between platforms except where trains to the same destination(s) may be going from more than one platform.

I can't see what benefit it would have given that it wouldn't impact your choice of platform. In any case the screens above every platform door clearly display the destination.

However, they are common elsewhere, including of course at National Rail stations. The old Mersey Railway in Liverpool put up such an automatic installation more than a century ago, with big overhead coloured lights in the lengthy passageway for which was the next train.

 

[ijmad]

So, not many places?

A number of stations on the London Overground (which of course is now on the tube map) receive less than 4tph, including stations north of Edmonton Green, Emerson Park, as well as many stations on the Thameslink network which is also now on the tube map because it's seen as being a valuable service.

 

[Deerfold]

A number of stations on the London Overground (which of course is now on the tube map) receive less than 4tph, including stations north of Edmonton Green, Emerson Park, as well as many stations on the Thameslink network which is also now on the tube map because it's seen as being a valuable service.

Whilst this is true, we were talking about the tube and how its frequencies are generally higher.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Whilst this is true, we were talking about the tube and how its frequencies are generally higher.

Indeed. And specifically the context of this discussion is the non-provision of information about where individual trains are going at the Tottenham Court Road central concourse and how that makes it harder for people to see whether a train at or approaching a platform is their train - which is particularly difficult if travelling to a low-frequency station. As far as I''m aware, that problem of not providing information until you reach the platform doesn't exist at any of the large central Thameslink stations.

 

[cambsy]

I haven’t travelled on Elizabeth Line during week, before today, so don’t know what loadings like during the day, but from today’s travels, I have some observations.

That loadings have been good all day, and services well used off peak, they haven’t been rammed,but well filled, and imagine a lot of this down to through running.

What are are other peoples, observations of loadings, off peak during week? And has through running already had impact? Or are my views and impressions wrong?.

 

[lawried123]

They’ll be replaced soon enough although those lines could indeed be slightly more faded.

Anyway if my experience is anything to go by, the passenger numbers entering Paddington from street level must be reduced by 80-90% (maybe less if you remove the Ealing Broadway interchange) as pretty much everyone stayed on the train into Central London. Bond St now much more popular.

From Western stations there’s a much more gentle filtering at all the Z1 stations as opposed to the disgorging at Paddington, which is to be expected I suppose. Seems to be more churn on the GEML, particularly at Stratford and Whitechapel - Liverpool St is of course more of a destination than Paddington.

I have just checked what happen with incident earlier, and from what can ascertain, a Shenfield terminator at Paddington, stopped about a carriage short, from front end of platform, then crept forward to far, ie not stop in time.

The passengers couldn’t get off said train, as had crept too far forward, so we’re carried on to Ealing Broadway, where went out of service, he showed me this on TFL Trakanet, then it carried on out if service West Bound, where info for it stopped.

Think went back to Westbourne Park sidings, despite this disruption, my day so far been good, and enjoyed the through running.

I was on a train on Sunday eastbound through the central section and at every station he slowed right down and then crawled up very slowly to line up with the doors. At two stations the train stopped too soon and had to pull further forward to line-up. I can only assume the train was being driven manually.

Lawrie