Crossrail progress

[G_A_C_C_C]

The "Near you" map on the Crossrail website has been updated today (27th)and now shows Phyllis having -0.17 km remaining.

Surely this means the first of the tunnels is now dug and lined?

But I would have expected to have seen some serious press and Boris photo opportunities at such an accomplishment.

Anyone got any further info?

Does anyone know how this Phyllis and Ada (and Victoria and Elizibeth coming the other way) are to be removed from the ground? Is there a hole at Farringdon?

Graeme

 

[westcoaster]

The "Near you" map on the Crossrail website has been updated today (27th)and now shows Phyllis having -0.17 km remaining.

Surely this means the first of the tunnels is now dug and lined?

But I would have expected to have seen some serious press and Boris photo opportunities at such an accomplishment.

Anyone got any further info?

Does anyone know how this Phyllis and Ada (and Victoria and Elizibeth coming the other way) are to be removed from the ground? Is there a hole at Farringdon?

Graeme

Do they not get buried where they finish.

 

[Simon11]

The "Near you" map on the Crossrail website has been updated today (27th)and now shows Phyllis having -0.17 km remaining.

Surely this means the first of the tunnels is now dug and lined?

But I would have expected to have seen some serious press and Boris photo opportunities at such an accomplishment.

Anyone got any further info?

Does anyone know how this Phyllis and Ada (and Victoria and Elizibeth coming the other way) are to be removed from the ground? Is there a hole at Farringdon?

Graeme

I would have thought they would be burried? I may be wrong....

 

[neilm]

I thought they were keeping them for crossrail 2 to reduce costs.

 

[Ironside]

The "Near you" map on the Crossrail website has been updated today (27th)and now shows Phyllis having -0.17 km remaining.

Surely this means the first of the tunnels is now dug and lined?

But I would have expected to have seen some serious press and Boris photo opportunities at such an accomplishment.

Anyone got any further info?

Does anyone know how this Phyllis and Ada (and Victoria and Elizibeth coming the other way) are to be removed from the ground? Is there a hole at Farringdon?

Graeme

Phyllis had only 200m to go on the 4/9/13 so has only covered 30 in the last few weeks. I imagine that unless their are complications that they are managing the breakthrough date and I w old also be very surprised if Boris was not there when they breakthrough.

There is a big hole at Farringdon near the meat market, and I would guess the tbms will come out there but I am just speculating.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I thought they were keeping them for crossrail 2 to reduce costs.

If they come out I would expect them to go back to Germany for refurbishment.

 

[edwin_m]

According to October's Modern Railways Phyllis will complete the first drive "before Christmas". Various of the Tunnel Boring Machines are used more than once (for example same article notes that Jessica does Pudding Mill to Stepney Green then both tunnels Limmo to Victoria Dock). I can't imagine they would be buried on completion, as to do that they'd have to dig several hundred metres more tunnel so as to park themselves out of the way of passing trains.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Phyllis had only 200m to go on the 4/9/13 so has only covered 30 in the last few weeks. I imagine that unless their are complications that they are managing the breakthrough date and I w old also be very surprised if Boris was not there when they breakthrough.
There is a big hole at Farringdon near the meat market, and I would guess the tbms will come out there but I am just speculating.

The yellow "next month" graphic for Phyllis carries on eastwards past Aldersgate St, almost to the Barbican.
Maybe that's where the exit hole is.

 

[Ironside]

The yellow "next month" graphic for Phyllis carries on eastwards past Aldersgate St, almost to the Barbican.
Maybe that's where the exit hole is.

A few months ago I went to the meat market and saw a big whole at the east end of it (through a whole in the fence) but the map is as you describe it.
I cannot find any reference on the Internet as to the exact extraction or dumping point but would also love to know the answer.

 

[swt_passenger]

The Crossrail webpage on the western tunnels (Phyllis and Ada) states:

Once each machine arrives at Farringdon the cutter heads will be removed from the ground using giant cranes and the machines dismantled.
http://www.crossrail.co.uk/construction/tunnelling/western-tunnels-royal-oak-to-farringdon/

But 'almost to the Barbican' is still at Farringdon in Crossrail's terms, as it's a double ended station, so an exit point there does makes sense in that context...

 

[rebmcr]

I can't imagine they would be buried on completion, as to do that they'd have to dig several hundred metres more tunnel so as to park themselves out of the way of passing trains.

For the channel tunnel, two pairs (UK L+R and France L+R — four TBMs total) met in the middle. One pair (UK I think) dug down and got buried under the track, so as to let the other pair out.

 

[edwin_m]

For the channel tunnel, two pairs (UK L+R and France L+R — four TBMs total) met in the middle. One pair (UK I think) dug down and got buried under the track, so as to let the other pair out.

Didn't know that thanks. But I guess the logistics of getting the machines out from mid-Channel are a bit more tricky than from the middle of London. I seem to recall the place they meet will be a chamber that eventually houses a pair of crossovers, somewhere near Farringdon but I don't remember the street name.

 

[Bald Rick]

Herrenknecht have first refusal to buy back the TBMs when they emerge.

 

[Nym]

Of course, since XR2 wasn't realistically planned when XR1 was being imlimented.

Would make the balance sheet look good if they buy them back though.

 

[deltic]

would they not move on to Northern Line extension or does the smaller bored tunnel mean that is not possible?

 

[hwl]

Of course, since XR2 wasn't realistically planned when XR1 was being imlimented.

Would make the balance sheet look good if they buy them back though.

But a lot less good when you buy them back again to do CR2

 

[Nym]

But a lot less good when you buy them back again to do CR2

So you'd plan for something that at the time wasn't planned and turn down an offer of having some very expensive assets potentially baught back?

 

[mr_jrt]

The cutting heads will likely be knackered by then anyway, so would need new ones regardless. As for the state fo the rest of the infrastructure...who knows. Perhaps more would need to be refurbished before you could send them on elsewhere.

Still, it's a shame they don't have more schemes ready to send them on if all that's needed is a new cutting head.

 

[Rl1]

I can confirm that the four machines will be buried near Farringdon. I think Ada is not far behind, around 1km I think.

They are stripping Phyliss of parts but the cost of the scrap metal of the machine does not outweigh the cost of removing the machine and getting it out of london.

 

[edwin_m]

would they not move on to Northern Line extension or does the smaller bored tunnel mean that is not possible?

If the tunnel is smaller then the TBM isn't useable since it is built to the diameter of the tunnel. I assume the Northern extension tunnels will be similar size to the Jubilee line extension, ie Tube size plus a walkway, compared to Crossrail which is main line size plus a walkway.

 

[mr_jrt]

I can confirm that the four machines will be buried near Farringdon. I think Ada is not far behind, around 1km I think.

They are stripping Phyliss of parts but the cost of the scrap metal of the machine does not outweigh the cost of removing the machine and getting it out of london.

Just as a point of curiosity, is the reason they cannot simply back them out again because the tunnel linings effectively reduce the tunnel width so they wouldn't fit? Otherwise, seems strange they wouldn't have them do an entire run out to the other portals, i.e. Paddington-Stratford. At a pinch, disassembling them in the Stepney cavern would have seemed to make sense...how strange.

If the tunnel is smaller then the TBM isn't useable since it is built to the diameter of the tunnel. I assume the Northern extension tunnels will be similar size to the Jubilee line extension, ie Tube size plus a walkway, compared to Crossrail which is main line size plus a walkway.

Seems strange you wouldn't build the tunnels to mainline size anyway. You need a walkway regardless (may as well be larger) and it means any future enlargement wouldn't need to do this section. Would also help with the airflow!

 

[rebmcr]

Seems strange you wouldn't build the tunnels to mainline size anyway. You need a walkway regardless (may as well be larger) and it means any future enlargement wouldn't need to do this section. Would also help with the airflow!

Yeah, it would seem that future-proofing the tunnel diameter is an easy win, although I believe due to diluting the Piston Effect, airflow would be hindered rather than helped.

Tunnels wider than necessary are also much worse during a crash (Moorgate) — although with modern anti-ride-up gear this might not be a real problem any more. The narrow tunnels were certainly a major obstacle at Russell Square.

If it turns out to be a good idea to future-proof, yet keep a tube width, I guess you could use traditional concrete lining for the mainline bore, then add a semi-permanent steel inner lining — strong enough to keep a derailed tube train in a straight line.

 

[Rl1]

They could back the gantries out and leave the cutting head in, but it would be a mammoth task and would involve stripping out everything in the tunnel (see pic).

I think the cost of each TBM is only £10M which is peanuts when you consider the cost of the whole project. I think the reason they had 8 TBMs rather than 4 was to get the job done quicker.

 

[jopsuk]

Just as a point of curiosity, is the reason they cannot simply back them out again because the tunnel linings effectively reduce the tunnel width so they wouldn't fit? Otherwise, seems strange they wouldn't have them do an entire run out to the other portals, i.e. Paddington-Stratford. At a pinch, disassembling them in the Stepney cavern would have seemed to make sense...how strange.



Seems strange you wouldn't build the tunnels to mainline size anyway. You need a walkway regardless (may as well be larger) and it means any future enlargement wouldn't need to do this section. Would also help with the airflow!

The LU tubes are not going to be enlarged. I'm pretty confident about this.

Larger tunnels mean vastly more spoil. Which is expensive to transport and dispose of.

 

[Nym]

The LU tubes are not going to be enlarged. I'm pretty confident about this.

Larger tunnels mean vastly more spoil. Which is expensive to transport and dispose of.

Also, by the number of 'construction' shafts in the plans, I'd expect that it will all be done 'by hand' with shotcrete rather than by a TBM that doesn't have anywhere to start or finish as it's entirely underground for it's construction other than the Battersea station box...

 

[TheKnightWho]

Would the NL extension have a further extension to Clapham Jn. in mind?

 

[Nym]

Would the NL extension have a further extension to Clapham Jn. in mind?

Yes, it does.

The line has been designed to allow extention to clapham junction but not directly allow it as a 2nd stage (the plant access is via Battersea Box that will be filled with station) but one could easilly sink another box at Clapham Sidings (sidings would be needed for an LUL station) so extention wouldn't be too hard.

But if one thinks about an extention to clapham junction with some sense, would even 33tph on the Northern Line ex. Kennington be able to handle the demand and leave space for passengers all the way via Charring Cross?

The same logic can be applied to any extentions to the Victoria Line, does it really need any more passengers???

 

[jopsuk]

My reading of it is that Clapham may get a Northern line extension if/when Cross Rail 2 happens, as this would ease demand

 

[Nym]

Quite possibly, the next upgrade for the Victoria Line might also see it extended to Clapham Junction and sharing terminating trains with Brixton.

 

[jopsuk]

(off topic somewhat) where would that diverge?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

But if one thinks about an extention to clapham junction with some sense, would even 33tph on the Northern Line ex. Kennington be able to handle the demand and leave space for passengers all the way via Charring Cross?

Would demand for through passengers be that great? Even if the line was extended to Clapham Junction, the likelihood is that anyone on SWT who currently changes to the Northern line northbound at Waterloo would still find it quicker to continue to do so (Besides, even if some people do revise their journeys to change at CLJ instead, that's only going to increase numbers on the Northern line between CLJ and Waterloo - that would in itself have zero impact on passenger numbers north of Waterloo, which is where the line is at its busiest)

It's more likely that people arriving at CLJ on Southern trains will find it useful to change to the Northern line at Clapham Junction for journeys into the city, but even there I'd imagine for many destinations it'll still be easier to stay on the train to Victoria and then take the Victoria or District lines, so that doesn't look to me like bringing overwhelming additional numbers to the Northern line.

Extending the Northern line to CLJ seems very obviously useful in terms of improving connections for people whose final destination is in South London, or who want to get to the Northern line City branch, but I'd be surprised if added so many passengers north of Kennington as to overwhelm the Northern line.

Not only that, but aren't there plans afoot to increase the frequency of trains on the Northern line by fully separating the City and Charing Cross branches, removing the bottleneck at Camden Town?