Crossrail extension onto WCML

[oversteer]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-28680186

Proposals to extend Crossrail to Hertfordshire are being considered by the government, the transport secretary is expected to announce later.
...
Under the plans, stations likely to get Crossrail services will include Tring, Hemel Hempstead, Watford Junction, Berkhamstead (sic) and Harrow and Wealdstone.

Since I live in Hertfordshire and commute to Canary Wharf I sincerely hope this goes ahead

 

[AM9]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-28680186


Since I live in Hertfordshire and commute to Canary Wharf I sincerely hope this goes ahead

It seems that the immediate value will be the relief given to Euston during HS2 development. So Tfl (and possibly Oyster) spread its tentacles further to integrate the south-east's rail infrastructure.

The report says that "It will provide vital high-speed transport connectivity from London to the new Watford Health Campus...." which probably means that the Watford High St loop will be included. Will this be the precursor to the conversion of the Overground line to AC? That would allow conversion and rationalisation of all North London Overground 378s.

On second thoughts, this could spark a whole new change in SW Herts. The Croxley Link will become part of the Met., so unless dual voltage stock is used, i.e. not the 345s, the line between WFJ and just beyond WFH will need to bual powered.

 

[edwin_m]

I can't see it going round via High Street - platform lengthening there would be a nightmare, and it would need a flyover at Junction to get back onto the slow lines. I presume the comment is referring to easy connections at Junction onto the Croxley Link.

It does seem a very worthwhile scheme though.

 

[AM9]

I can't see it going round via High Street - platform lengthening there would be a nightmare, and it would need a flyover at Junction to get back onto the slow lines. I presume the comment is referring to easy connections at Junction onto the Croxley Link.

It does seem a very worthwhile scheme though.

If it is confined to the AC lines, then it will not stop at all stations. It would however be on the right side to connect to the Abbey Flyer.

With Tring about as far out as Reading, I suppose that we will also get more complaints here about long journeys on 'metro' style stock.

 

[The Planner]

It will just be a loop from Old Oak Common to the Acton Wells line and an upgraded chord down to the Willesden Reliefs/diveunder and come out on the slows at Wembley. Dont expect any massive 75mph grandiose scheme to the WCML as you will be dissapointed.

 

[AM9]

It will just be a loop from Old Oak Common to the Acton Wells line and an upgraded chord down to the Willesden Reliefs/diveunder and come out on the slows at Wembley. Dont expect any massive 75mph grandiose scheme to the WCML as you will be dissapointed.

Plus some more rolling stock?

 

[The Planner]

Just more Crossrail stock.

 

[oversteer]

Be interesting to see how this affects LM.

 

[jopsuk]

It'll be very interesting to see what the route actually is.

Presumably this means that Paddington won't have trains from the east terminating?

Also, presumably this means a bigger fleet will be required?

 

[HSTEd]

The massive uplift in passenger counts will likely require expansion to 12 car sets and possibly to more trains per hour.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

With Tring about as far out as Reading, I suppose that we will also get more complaints here about long journeys on 'metro' style stock.

That was one of my first thoughts when I read the news. I was under the impression that Crossrail stock is being designed with short journeys in mind - no toilets, longitudinal seating etc. That's not going to work very well if it becomes the main service to Hemel Hempstead/Tring/etc.

(Reading is probably a bit different because Crossrail clearly won't become the main service to Reading - most people heading from Reading to London will prefer to jump on the existing fast trains).

I wouldn't have thought that time savings would be that much either, since quite a few LM trains currently run non-stop WFJ-Euston. The best equivalent Crossrail can provide would presumably be non-stop WFJ-Old Oak Common then all stops into central London. Convenience will obviously be a lot better though if you're travelling to the City/Docklands.

 

[Class377/5]

On second thoughts, this could spark a whole new change in SW Herts. The Croxley Link will become part of the Met., so unless dual voltage stock is used, i.e. not the 345s, the line between WFJ and just beyond WFH will need to bual powered.

The 345 are designed to be convertible easily to dual voltage on the case of extending beyond Abbey Wood, so no issue with stock being changed to accommodate this. Not that using the DC lines seems to be on the agenda anyway as it seems to be proposed to replace the Tring terminators.

I wouldn't have thought that time savings would be that much either, since quite a few LM trains currently run non-stop WFJ-Euston. The best equivalent Crossrail can provide would presumably be non-stop WFJ-Old Oak Common then all stops into central London. Convenience will obviously be a lot better though if you're travelling to the City/Docklands.

I'm guessing the 16mins saving is by not having to change to the Tube.

 

[oversteer]

Not having to use the Northern/Jubilee/Victoria lines would be worth it on its own, even if there was no time saving.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They are only talking about diverting the Tring stoppers via Crossrail (ie only a fraction of all the WCML slow line services).
That's only 2tph at the moment (3tph in the peak).

 

[cle]

It will just be a loop from Old Oak Common to the Acton Wells line and an upgraded chord down to the Willesden Reliefs/diveunder and come out on the slows at Wembley. Dont expect any massive 75mph grandiose scheme to the WCML as you will be dissapointed.

Would they upgrade those running lines so that the Southern WLLs could be accelerated a bit more? Especially as they go to 2tph.

Hopefully this would have stops at Wembley Central and Bushey. And Wembley Central becomes a real station open all day.

 

[swt_passenger]

They are only talking about diverting the Tring stoppers via Crossrail (ie only a fraction of all the WCML slow line services).
That's only 2tph at the moment (3tph in the peak).

The London and SE RUS (2011) planned for 8 tph from Crossrail to the WCML though, with the eventual total 24 tph split being 6 tph GW, 10 tph Heathrow, and 8 tph WCML.

That would be allowing for a significantly different WCML service pattern to now, I'd suggest about half the total of WCML slow trains would be diverted to Crossrail, and the remainder staying in Euston. That might justify changes to the junction layout at Wembley - I wonder if they could fit a dive under in the space available?

 

[Mikey C]

I can definitely see the attraction, wasn't one of the original plans for Crossrail 20 years ago that it would take over some services to Marylebone?
Isn't one of the reasons for terminating Crossrail trains at Abbey Wood rather than continuing on the existing tracks to Dartford and beyond, that they want the service to be segregated and not held up by other services. Won't sharing the WCML complicate the service?

 

[cle]

The London and SE RUS (2011) planned for 8 tph from Crossrail to the WCML though, with the eventual total 24 tph split being 6 tph GW, 10 tph Heathrow, and 8 tph WCML.

That would be allowing for a significantly different WCML service pattern to now, I'd suggest about half the total of WCML slow trains would be diverted to Crossrail, and the remainder staying in Euston. That might justify changes to the junction layout at Wembley - I wonder if they could fit a dive under in the space available?

A change and works somewhere north of Watford tunnels to enable it to run SLOW FAST FAST SLOW might be handy for LM too.

As faster LM trains from Northampton/MK could switch onto the fasts between Watford and Wembley. After Wembley, they'd have the slows back.

It could be all the 110mph stock - with the displaced stock going to TPE or to Midlands duties.

And if 8tph then it would require a complete recast. And not all Crossrails would necessarily stop everywhere, hence there could be different patterns. Otherwise it would become a slow railway, rather than semi-fast.

You'd need Watford terminators too. Hemel has a disused something or other which might be used. And Bletchley is far, but could be an option.

 

[LLivery]

Its something that like many heard about ages ago and I thought it would never be taken seriously. But I'm glad it is being looked into, but surely it should run further east if this happens. As Tring is 2tph maybe take over the hourly Braintree and Ipswich or Clochester Town services from AGA. I'd rather some Oxford & Newbury services too, make it a proper East-West Thameslink without TfL's interference. With extra trains being needed maybe just have a different seating layout (plus toilet) like the S7 & S7 stock have. Its not much of an ask.

 

[Chris125]

That might justify changes to the junction layout at Wembley - I wonder if they could fit a dive under in the space available?

It may be possible to divert the up slow north of the diveunder tracks so they emerge between the slows rather than next to them, but I'd be surprised if there was anything more radical than that.

A major benefit that I've not seen mentioned yet is the potential to move the Old Oak Common Crossrail depot, a WCML branch would appear to open up many more potential candidates for relocation.

Chris

 

[swt_passenger]

It may be possible to divert the up slow north of the diveunder tracks so they emerge between the slows rather than next to them, but I'd be surprised if there was anything more radical than that.

A major benefit that I've not seen mentioned yet is the potential to move the Old Oak Common Crossrail depot, a WCML branch would appear to open up many more potential candidates for relocation.

Sticking another 8 tph up the WCML is likely to need another 10 or 12 units I think? That alone may need another depot (or stabling location at least) anyway - smallish number but these are long trains - the equivalent of about 30 normal EMUs. I think the obvious route for the link to the WCML is probably through part of the the depot site anyway, although I suppose that depends if the junction is east or west of Old Oak Common station - does anyone have any ideas what might happen there?

 

[mr_jrt]

The Tring locals are the only sensible options until they extend the Crossrail stock to 12 car as these are all 8 car currently, so freeing that stock up enables the other LM services to be strengthened to 12 cars.

It also gets the junction to the NNML built to a suitable spec, so I guess it's the best of a bad job, really.

 

[DarloRich]

@ swt passenger: there is a depot going spare at Bletchley

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

DfT press release here: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-launches-study-into-potential-crossrail-extension

No more detail than was on the BBC report.
Not a done deal, either.

“We are investing record amounts to build a world-class railway, so it is vital we seize every opportunity to make the most of these once in a generation schemes. That is why I have asked HS2 Limited to work closely with the Crossrail sponsors to look at extending Crossrail services to key destinations in Hertfordshire. Not only would this be a huge boost to passengers and the local economy, it would also provide flexibility when building HS2 into Euston, making sure we create a lasting legacy for the station.”

Stations that could be serviced by Crossrail include Tring, Hemel Hempstead, Watford Junction, Berkhamstead and Harrow and Wealdstone. Any changes will not affect the timetable or planned service pattern for the existing Crossrail scheme which is scheduled to be fully operational by 2019.

 

[rebmcr]

A change and works somewhere north of Watford tunnels to enable it to run SLOW FAST FAST SLOW might be handy for LM too.

Seeing as Euston throat is FAST SLOW+DC SLOW+DC FAST, switching at Camden junction to FAST FAST SLOW SLOW DC DC, that seems like a lot of potentially conflicting movements begging for disruption.

 

[bangor-toad]

It will just be a loop from Old Oak Common to the Acton Wells line and an upgraded chord down to the Willesden Reliefs/diveunder and come out on the slows at Wembley. Dont expect any massive 75mph grandiose scheme to the WCML as you will be dissapointed.

I can see two realistic(?) options for this:
The first would be to use one of the Old Oak Common Crossrail terminating platforms and extend it westwards. It would need to immediately curve northwards through quite a sharp turn, cross the line towards Willisden Junction, use the route of a small part of the Dudding Hill line and then drop down onto the existing tracks by the fast side of the WCML and then use the diveunder to get over to the correct slow side of the WCML.
This would need a few houses demolished near the station but apart from a bit of aggravation sorting out the various levels, would be quite simple to achieve.

The other option would be to use the existing plan for a loop from the south side of Old Oak Common that was intended for London Overground services to do Willisden Junction / Old Oak / Kensington. This seems like a good idea apart from the details that those lines would probably be quite busy and that they are on the wrong side (south side) of the GWML which would need a flyover/diveunder somewhere to the east of the station. This seems a crowded, confined area and may be rather challenging to build.

Are there any ideas of the details yet or is this a headline announcement with little consideration as to exactly *how* it can be put together?
Cheers,
Mr Toad

 

[cle]

Seeing as Euston throat is FAST SLOW+DC SLOW+DC FAST, switching at Camden junction to FAST FAST SLOW SLOW DC DC, that seems like a lot of potentially conflicting movements begging for disruption.

Well I did mean all the way down to Euston. Would have platform implications at Wembley, and Queens Park definitely - but that isn't on anyone's radar.

 

[swt_passenger]

Are there any ideas of the details yet or is this a headline announcement with little consideration as to exactly *how* it can be put together?

As per LNW-GW Joint's recent post (above - 1139) DfT have only announced a feasibility study, so details wouldn't really be expected yet.

 

[mr_jrt]

If you were going to do a wholesale rebuild south of Hanslope Junction, then DF-DS-US-UF would be preferable as it then enables a single island platform for the minor stations and turnback sidings are trivial. Complications would come from the link to the Bletchley flyover (though there would be plenty of room to bring the lines down between the slow lines, the curvature would be interesting to say the least), the junctions around Willesden, but ironically, I think the tunnels around Euston are probably sufficient for getting the fast services to where they need to be - ironic as these will then all be rebuilt for the Euston rebuild! Given most stations on the southern WCML have an island flanked by two side platforms you could then just close the side platforms off for the minor stations and vastly improve the safety situation of having fast trains passing though as well.

 

[aylesbury2]

With Tring about as far out as Reading, I suppose that we will also get more complaints here about long journeys on 'metro' style stock.

Reading is 10 miles further out from Charing Cross (central point of London, used as a basis) than Tring according to Google Maps, and fast LM services to EUS are only 35 minutes so I don't see why there would be many 'complaints'.

Amersham is only a tad further south than Tring (still outside M25) and journeys to Baker Street (first Met line stop which is considered to be in the centre of the City of London) take 49 minutes on an S-stock train, so what's the problem with Tring?

I, however, would expect complaints if services were extended to MK (50 miles to London) as that's ridiculous for metro stock, yes (Wiki page suggests this could happen).