Crossrail BBC documentary: Fifteen Billion Pound Railway

[absolutelymilk]

Just watched the documentary on iPlayer, it was very interesting to see them working much nearer to completion of the stations and actually getting track laid. It emphasised how much of a problem it was to bring in material by truck through central London, I wonder whether it will be possible to bring in material by train once the tracks are complete?

 

[swt_passenger]

There are certainly videos on their site showing the platform edge door systems being delivered by train.

 

[EdinburghTrain]

Not quite on topic, but is there a large Crossrail thread? I've searched but don't see anything.
Seems odd that such a large project isn't being discussed at length here?

 

[IanXC]

Not quite on topic, but is there a large Crossrail thread? I've searched but don't see anything.
Seems odd that such a large project isn't being discussed at length here?

I've not found anything ongoing about the main infrastructure aspects either, which as you say seems surprising. (There is a thread around Class 345s and there is coverage of GWML electrification which is linked).

Feel free to start such a thread!

 

[fgwrich]

On thing I did find a little annoying in the program - and I know it comes up here fairly often, was the referencing to : The Train Tunnels, The Train Tracks, The Train Stations, Train Platforms. Annoying as it was (whatever happened to railway tracks, rail tunnels?) I did notice it nearly stopped half way through.

Also, and it's a question possibly belonging more in the LUL or Crossrail thread - Why was it chosen at Whitechapel to close the two inner tracks and use the two outer lines instead? Surely they could have either extended outwards over one line allowing a larger Island platform to be created, or drop the two outer platforms and utilize the centre roads? Either option potentially allowing more space for the Crossrail / LO / LUL interchange bridge.

 

[swt_passenger]

I've not found anything ongoing about the main infrastructure aspects either, which as you say seems surprising. (There is a thread around Class 345s and there is coverage of GWML electrification which is linked).

Feel free to start such a thread!

Most of the debate would have happened around the time they started tunnelling though. Back when all the armchair experts were attempting to re-design it. Once spades are in the ground there isn't much to talk about, with nothing contentious affecting the operating railway.

But as far as I can see using the global forum search there have been dozens of Crossrail 1 related threads, (in a number of sub-forums including the LU one) because most times people have raised a new question they have started a brand new thread, because the existing discussion has sort of timed out.

 

[rebmcr]

On thing I did find a little annoying in the program - and I know it comes up here fairly often, was the referencing to : The Train Tunnels, The Train Tracks, The Train Stations, Train Platforms. Annoying as it was (whatever happened to railway tracks, rail tunnels?) I did notice it nearly stopped half way through.

Also, and it's a question possibly belonging more in the LUL or Crossrail thread - Why was it chosen at Whitechapel to close the two inner tracks and use the two outer lines instead? Surely they could have either extended outwards over one line allowing a larger Island platform to be created, or drop the two outer platforms and utilize the centre roads? Either option potentially allowing more space for the Crossrail / LO / LUL interchange bridge.

It allowed a staged process with decommissioning the old ticket hall & footbridge, adding the new western entrance, and tearing out the old infrastructure. The old footbridge was not configured for a non-island platform, so that would have involved another step.

 

[swt_passenger]

...Also, and it's a question possibly belonging more in the LUL or Crossrail thread - Why was it chosen at Whitechapel to close the two inner tracks and use the two outer lines instead? Surely they could have either extended outwards over one line allowing a larger Island platform to be created, or drop the two outer platforms and utilize the centre roads? Either option potentially allowing more space for the Crossrail / LO / LUL interchange bridge.

A large central island will always be the preference, because it reduces the number of stairs escalators and lifts required. I think the island contains both the escalators up to surface (concourse) level and another bank for one of the main routes down to the Crossrail lower level, so assuming they are all in the centre, using the outer tracks long term has also allowed for a single building site in the middle. Probably more 'buildable' than any other option as well.

I think that many of the drawings of Whitechapel found by online search are obsolete, and don't actually show the finalised design, at one stage there was a massive revision of the plans, and that left many earlier sketches redundant.

PS Just thought that the large island also possibly optimises the track layout and line speed especially for the eastbound platform.

 

[superkev]

Excellent program. Shows that we can do things right with the right people.
Pity Linda Miller not running the GW electrification debacle.
K

 

[thejuggler]

Linda is now sorting out tunnels in Sydney! How old was the PM at Whitechapel? If he started work in 1960 I put him into his early 70s - what a trooper.

 

[Starmill]

I've not found anything ongoing about the main infrastructure aspects either, which as you say seems surprising. (There is a thread around Class 345s and there is coverage of GWML electrification which is linked).

Feel free to start such a thread!

There are a few different random ones and some older ones. There doesn't appear to be one large overarching one.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/search.php?searchid=11496416&pp=25&page=3

(I couldn't filter out the ones about Cardiff / Edinburgh / Glasgow / Bradford Crossrail, or Crossrail 2 or 3).

It's funny because I'm convinced I remember reading a thread called Crossrail Progress. I think some of the rebuilding discussion may have ended up in the Underground forum.


There is also Modern Railways' excellent Crossrail Update which has been published monthly for years. Perhaps that's what I was thinking of.

 

[Busaholic]

Linda is now sorting out tunnels in Sydney! How old was the PM at Whitechapel? If he started work in 1960 I put him into his early 70s - what a trooper.

I started work in 1967 and am 69, so reckon he's mid 70s. Just goes to show if you're good at your job and your health's okay, why wouldn't you carry on? He did retire once, for a fortnight, apparently. My grandfather finally left the employment of the Inland Revenue aged 80, having joined from school at 14!

A very interesting programme. I was particularly fascinated by the Whitechapel segments. Talk about fitting quarts into pint pots!

 

[EssexGonzo]

Good programme but the programme makers just can't resist making up some false jeopardy, can they?

"Will they get the delivery in time?". "Millimetres to the eft or right could mean disaster".

Really winds me up. Not quite as bad as Alaska Railroad on Quest, though. Made for the dumb US market first and foremost.

 

[absolutelymilk]

When the trains run on the central section from December 2018, will there still be 24 tph, or will this only happen once services to Shenfield begin?

 

[WatcherZero]

Good programme but the programme makers just can't resist making up some false jeopardy, can they?

"Will they get the delivery in time?". "Millimetres to the eft or right could mean disaster".

Really winds me up. Not quite as bad as Alaska Railroad on Quest, though. Made for the dumb US market first and foremost.

I kinda half thought that, but then if it had been an american documentary those little animations of the construction would instead show the disasters if something alluded to went wrong.

 

[plcd1]

A large central island will always be the preference, because it reduces the number of stairs escalators and lifts required. I think the island contains both the escalators up to surface (concourse) level and another bank for one of the main routes down to the Crossrail lower level, so assuming they are all in the centre, using the outer tracks long term has also allowed for a single building site in the middle. Probably more 'buildable' than any other option as well.

I think that many of the drawings of Whitechapel found by online search are obsolete, and don't actually show the finalised design, at one stage there was a massive revision of the plans, and that left many earlier sketches redundant.

PS Just thought that the large island also possibly optimises the track layout and line speed especially for the eastbound platform.

I doubt the plans have changed that much or else they will have invalidated the planning permission. Yes there is a large central concourse between the district line trains which will have escalators up to the "floating" new concourse. There are no escalators down from the District Line to Crossrail. You will have to walk north up the "floating" concourse beyond the end of the Overground platforms where there is a deep shaft to your right which contains the lift / escalators down to Crossrail. There will be a pretty lengthy trek from Crossrail platforms to eventually reach the Whitechapel Road entrance or the District Line platforms. There is a new subway link from the District Line level to the southbound Overground platform and that is already in public use as the removal of the old footbridge removed the other route.

Where the current temporary entrance is will become an emergency exit for the station and there will be staff accommodation in this part of the station complex.

Although Crossrail rarely "washes its dirty linen in public" that programme got fairly close to acknowledging that work at Whitechapel is behind programme and that the sheer logistics of inserting that new concourse have proved immensely difficult. The site programme and possessions have had to be reworked to try to get the work back on schedule. I suspect it will be the last station to be finished on the entire route.

I thought the programme was decent enough but am disappointed there are only two shows in this series. There must be much more that they could show *if* they really wanted to. There was a very positive reaction to the programme on Twitter last night so the public seem to enjoy programmes showing the marvels of engineering and associated human endeavour.

 

[hwl]

Whitechapel...
Although Crossrail rarely "washes its dirty linen in public" that programme got fairly close to acknowledging that work at Whitechapel is behind programme and that the sheer logistics of inserting that new concourse have proved immensely difficult. The site programme and possessions have had to be reworked to try to get the work back on schedule. I suspect it will be the last station to be finished on the entire route.

Paddington and all the other stations with major M&E issues? (the real bad laundry - Farringdon too with plenty of bigger than expected geology issues - shaft extra shaft causing the unusual layout design of the SSR sidings with that bit of single track all makes sense now?).

Whitechapel can of course be the last underground station to be completed as all the others need to be in open 5 months sooner to run Paddington - Abbey Wood services but other maybe completed closer to their deadlines.

 

[rebmcr]

Whitechapel can of course be the last underground station to be completed as all the others need to be in open 5 months sooner to run Paddington - Abbey Wood services but other maybe completed closer to their deadlines.

Whitechapel is on the Paddington-Abbey Wood route, it's immediately to the west of the main junction.

 

[QueensCurve]

Just watched the documentary on iPlayer, it was very interesting to see them working much nearer to completion of the stations and actually getting track laid. It emphasised how much of a problem it was to bring in material by truck through central London, I wonder whether it will be possible to bring in material by train once the tracks are complete?

Well worth a watch but it grates with me that the Commentary is in
fluent American.

 

[QueensCurve]

On thing I did find a little annoying in the program - and I know it comes up here fairly often, was the referencing to : The Train Tunnels, The Train Tracks, The Train Stations, Train Platforms. Annoying as it was (whatever happened to railway tracks, rail tunnels?) I did notice it nearly stopped half way through.

"Train stations". It's just a station for goodness' sake. :mad:

 

[IanD]

Whitechapel is not the only place on the network where Overground trains pass under Underground trains.

 

[Tio Terry]

Linda is now sorting out tunnels in Sydney! How old was the PM at Whitechapel? If he started work in 1960 I put him into his early 70s - what a trooper.

I had a hand in the design of Liverpool St (Crossrail) and a little bit to do with Whitechapel, I've met the said gentleman, he's quite forthright!

I started working with BR in 1964, I was 15 years and 3 weeks old, straight from school. Been in the industry ever since so coming up to completing 53 years this July. I work because I enjoy it, not because I have to. I did consider retiring back in 1991 but after taking 3 weeks leave I binned the idea. You cant put a price on the camaraderie, friendship, and sense of belonging to a "family" that working within the railway industry brings. And, believe it or not, I missed the daily commute in and out of Waterloo!

 

[yorkie]

Whitechapel is not the only place on the network where Overground trains pass under Underground trains.

Indeed. Three other locations I can think of:-

• South Acton - Gunnersbury
• South Kenton - Kenton
• South Hampstead - Euston

 

[Bald Rick]

Indeed. Three other locations I can think of:-

• South Acton - Gunnersbury
• South Kenton - Kenton
• South Hampstead - Euston

And Shepherds Bush. Keep up at the back.

 

[IanD]

And Shepherds Bush. Keep up at the back.

I think the Underground goes over the Overground there!

I believe between Olympia and West Brompton, the Overground goes alongside, under and over the Underground. But it probably doesn't!

 

[Domh245]

I think the Underground goes over the Overground there!

I believe between Olympia and West Brompton, the Overground goes alongside, under and over the Underground. But it probably doesn't!

The Hammersmith Branch goes over the Overground just north of Westfield

 

[DerekC]

At the Ray Street Gridiron the Circle Line goes over Thameslink - but maybe that doesn't count!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I doubt the plans have changed that much or else they will have invalidated the planning permission.

This comment made me curious: I was under the impression that planning permission focused on the impact that works would have on the surrounding area, and that planning permission would therefore be invalidated if the design of something substantially changed in a way that would impact the local environment, or other nearby properties.

But the platform arrangement at Whitechapel is presumably entirely underground, so whatever the arrangement ends up as, you'd have expected that will have no significant impact above ground. I'm therefore curious as to how that might invalidate planning permission. Is there something about planning permission that I have misunderstood?

 

[Flying Phil]

I had a hand in the design of Liverpool St (Crossrail) and a little bit to do with Whitechapel, I've met the said gentleman, he's quite forthright!

I started working with BR in 1964, I was 15 years and 3 weeks old, straight from school. Been in the industry ever since so coming up to completing 53 years this July. I work because I enjoy it, not because I have to. I did consider retiring back in 1991 but after taking 3 weeks leave I binned the idea. You cant put a price on the camaraderie, friendship, and sense of belonging to a "family" that working within the railway industry brings. And, believe it or not, I missed the daily commute in and out of Waterloo!

What a great post - Happy man!
..... and the program was a good insight into the challenges of building Crossrail - looking forward to part 2

 

[plcd1]

This comment made me curious: I was under the impression that planning permission focused on the impact that works would have on the surrounding area, and that planning permission would therefore be invalidated if the design of something substantially changed in a way that would impact the local environment, or other nearby properties.

But the platform arrangement at Whitechapel is presumably entirely underground, so whatever the arrangement ends up as, you'd have expected that will have no significant impact above ground. I'm therefore curious as to how that might invalidate planning permission. Is there something about planning permission that I have misunderstood?

If I can't change my windows without permission from the council I struggle to see how Crossrail could suddenly stick a whole new set of tunnels in at Whitechapel to change how the District Line is linked to Crossrail (this being the point made a few posts ago by another poster). The scale of the works at Whitechapel are substantial and the local impact is intense during construction simply because of the density of local housing and proximity to the site. I just cannot conceive that Crossrail could have made substantive change to the design of the finished station without it having ramifications for planning permission and also related site constraints imposed by the council.

I am no expert on the planning process but have spent a lot of time looking at all of the Crossrail station designs. The planning submissions are huge and contain vast detail. If the permission was only about "impact" then I can't see why such detail of every aspect of the design would be required.