Crossrail 2 route alterations

[Bald Rick]

The signaling is also an issue for converting the Waterloo inners to 25kV - it was the last big scheme to use traditional relay interlockings and panels circa 1990. I don't know what it's expected lifetime is but I suspect immunizing it would be less cost-effective than replacement.

Relays and panels do not need work when converting to 25kV. Track circuits, bonding and some other line side kit does.

 

[edwin_m]

Relays and panels do not need work when converting to 25kV. Track circuits, bonding and some other line side kit does.

I agree, but the age of the equipment suggests widespread use of older track circuits and other kit that isn't AC immune.

 

[59CosG95]

The current layout at Wimbledon is:

SWML up slow (5)
(platform)
SWML up fast (6)
SWML down fast (7)
(platform)
SWML down slow (8)

There's a flyover between Wimbledon and Earlsfield so that the fast and slow lines are paired. I can't see that layout changing because otherwise you'll have all of the foot traffic to/from Waterloo using one platform and stairwell.

I think it's more likely that the District line platforms will remain in situ as will the SWML platforms. 9-10 will be returned to TSGN/Wimbledon Loop and the tramlink situated somewhere else; either on a new P11-12 adjacent to 9-10 or maybe even underground as part of the CR2 excavation.

I guess the Platform 11-12 solution for Tramlink could work, as there's an area south of P10 that could easily accommodate them.

EDIT: Sorry about the double post yesterday-phone crashed as I posted the first post and then left me unsure as to whether or not it actually worked.

 

[edwin_m]

Shame there is so much traffic on the gyratory outside Wimbledon station, otherwise the trams could just terminate there and run on street to Merton Park.

 

[WestCountry]

Thanks. Looking at the maps I think serving Dalston Junction might be good for the Overground links.

Hackney also gets you on the Overground, and with better connectivity both east (Stratford!) and west (services past Highbury & Islington).
People heading to Whitechapel and south would probably go through the City rather than up via Dalston anyway, so a Dalston interchange is only a big advantage for reaching the stations between it and Shoreditch.

I think the better access from Stratford (and Essex/East Anglia generally) to the whole KGX/StP/Euston complex is more useful.

 

[mr_jrt]

Hackney also gets you on the Overground, and with better connectivity both east (Stratford!) and west (services past Highbury & Islington).
People heading to Whitechapel and south would probably go through the City rather than up via Dalston anyway, so a Dalston interchange is only a big advantage for reaching the stations between it and Shoreditch.

I think the better access from Stratford (and Essex/East Anglia generally) to the whole KGX/StP/Euston complex is more useful.

Don't forget the length of the Crossrail 2 trains -a station at Dalston would almost certainly link the two and we'd be able to drop the Junction/Kingsland suffixes and you'd enable passengers using the Dalston Junction terminators to head east within the gateline.

 

[Class 170101]

Dalston Cross Rail 2 station will almost certainly be double ended in terms of station access and accesible from both Dalston Kingsland and Dalston Jn Stations.

 

[jopsuk]

I got the crayons out and came up with my own, entirely Lee Valley-based, Crossrail 2 North proposal.



There would be a few flyovers involved- ideally Tottenham Hale, Broxbourne and Harlow Town would have cross-platform interchange to the West Anglia services. At Harlow this would be achieved by having Crossrail in the middle, with trains reversing in a headshunt north of the station. Frequency through South Tottenham would be low enough not to require separate tracks. No trains would terminate at Cheshunt- it would have two through platforms and two express tracks.

 

[34D]

Also-I don't really see how New Southgate can be a terminus; where is the space (I reiterate)?

Quite, yes. Anyone?

 

[mr_jrt]

Quite, yes. Anyone?

Really? It's one of the easier ones for me - plenty of room!

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=sm...r=0.67&sty=o&eo=0&q=new southgate&form=LMLTCC

It's not ideal from an interchange perspective heading north, but it'll have to do due to the ECML's silly arrangement with the fast lines between the slows and flanking platforms. If you scroll south I think that's what the documents refer to about the builder's yard being vulnerable for depot space. I suspect my old man's employer will have interesting responses to the consultation given he owns that builder's depot...

 

[joeykins82]

According to the TfL consultation the extension to New Southgate should result in a cheaper scheme because they can use existing railway land

 

[Olaf]

The signaling is also an issue for converting the Waterloo inners to 25kV - it was the last big scheme to use traditional relay interlockings and panels circa 1990. I don't know what it's expected lifetime is but I suspect immunizing it would be less cost-effective than replacement.

Signalling in the Waterloo area will have been renewed (scheduled for early 2020s) before Crossrail2 can be delivered.

 

[infobleep]

What improvements will the renewal of the signaling at Waterloo offer compared to now? Will it just be increased reliability?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[swt_passenger]

What improvements will the renewal of the signaling at Waterloo offer compared to now? Will it just be increased reliability?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

It will presumably be coordinated with other planned work, such as P1-4 lengthening, international platforms re-opening, and all the other CP5 enhancements yet to be detailed, as in:

The agreed high level programme scope fully reopens Waterloo International Terminal and the approaches to platforms 20-24, with infrastructure works at Queenstown Road, additional turnback facilities, facilitating up to 20 trains per hour across the Windsor line service group. The scope also includes the extension of Waterloo platforms 1-4 to accommodate 10 car trains, station works at key locations across the route and a package of supporting mainline capacity improvement works.

So lots of changes which seem to generate signalling alterations - it would seem very unlikely they'll just modify the signalling in CP5 and then renew it in CP6 - it'll have to be coordinated surely? Of course whether they'll improve anything I guess we'll see much later...

 

[Chris125]

London Crossrail 2 'preferred route' outlined by mayor

Following consultation TfL have decided on a new safeguarded route for the former Chelsea-Hackney line, now Crossrail 2, which includes the Dalston Junction and King's Road Chelsea options, a northern terminus at New Southgate and a possible future branch from Angel to Hackney Central and beyond.

A recent consultation to finesse the route showed strong support for the scheme with over 80 per cent expressing support. On the options consulted, the majority of respondents support an extension from Alexandra Palace to New Southgate. There was also strong support for a station at Kings Road, Chelsea, as well as support for two potential station options in Hackney – Hackney Central and Dalston Junction. Based on the consultation responses, TfL and Network Rail have now identified a preferred route for safeguarding, with a north-east alignment via Dalston, but with a safeguarded spur to Hackney Central that could be extended further eastwards at a later date.

Press Release Map

Chris

 

[pro4600]

Are they still planning a single station to cover euston stpancras and kings cross?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Are they still planning a single station to cover euston stpancras and kings cross?

As far as I can tell from the map, yes they are.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Looking at the route map, assuming there is a physical connection could one train from the SWML say every 2hrs, instead of terminating at Waterloo, head along the Crossrail 2 route? Even it it's just 1 each way in the morning peak and 1 each way in the evening peak?

 

[swt_passenger]

Looking at the route map, assuming there is a physical connection could one train from the SWML say every 2hrs, instead of terminating at Waterloo, head along the Crossrail 2 route? Even it it's just 1 each way in the morning peak and 1 each way in the evening peak?

Probably not, for mostly the same sorts of reasons you won't be seeing (for example) Bristol to Norwich services on Crossrail 1.

Incompatible signalling, platform edge doors, insufficient paths.

 

[The Ham]

Looking at the route map, assuming there is a physical connection could one train from the SWML say every 2hrs, instead of terminating at Waterloo, head along the Crossrail 2 route? Even it it's just 1 each way in the morning peak and 1 each way in the evening peak?

Why bother, when services on the SWML can increase in frequency and with a change at Clapham to Crossrail 2 will provide a much better service than currently.

 

[infobleep]

The BBC Web Site new report suggests it will end in Epsom so does that mean Cross rail will end there but it will stop at other stations to allow connections with the South West mainline.

If this allows more mainline services to finally stop at Clapham Junction during peak rush hour and outside it, what service frequencies will be cut from existing suburban services that could transfer to Cross Rail 2? I'm assuming the fast services would take over the paths of slower suburban services, since there would be no room otherwise.

 

[Chris125]

The BBC Web Site new report suggests it will end in Epsom so does that mean Cross rail will end there but it will stop at other stations to allow connections with the South West mainline.

As well as Wimbledon itself I think it's safe to assume Crossrail services would call at all stations on the existing routes used south of there.

If this allows more mainline services to finally stop at Clapham Junction during peak rush hour and outside it, what service frequencies will be cut from existing suburban services that could transfer to Cross Rail 2?

It's too early to know the exact impact which depends to a degree on the upgrades that happen in the meantime, but it would probably vary between routes - on some lines Crossrail 2 may take over all existing services, but others could see some trains continue operating into Waterloo.

Chris

 

[edwin_m]

Hopefully also there will be a station near the Crossrail portal for between Crossrail and Waterloo services - ideally with platforms on both sides of each Crossrail track to give cross-platform to both fast and slow lines. This probably won't be Wimbledon as there isn't room.

 

[hwl]

The BBC Web Site new report suggests it will end in Epsom so does that mean Cross rail will end there but it will stop at other stations to allow connections with the South West mainline.

If this allows more mainline services to finally stop at Clapham Junction during peak rush hour and outside it, what service frequencies will be cut from existing suburban services that could transfer to Cross Rail 2? I'm assuming the fast services would take over the paths of slower suburban services, since there would be no room otherwise.

The BBC article is very poorly written so it is best to ignore it and look at the map linked to above which show stops at all existing stations on the 5 Branches. Epsom is one of the few named station (only Epsom and Twickenham are marked at the end of branches the other 3 branches just have arrows).

 

[swt_passenger]

The BBC Web Site new report suggests it will end in Epsom so does that mean Cross rail will end there but it will stop at other stations to allow connections with the South West mainline.

The BBC report as usual simplifies things a lot, stating that Crossrail 2 will run from 'Cheshunt to Epsom'.

Describing various possible branches in detail would probably be considered a failure as their aim appears to generally dumb down their reports.

Most of their Crossrail 1 reporting over a number of years failed to describe that whole route as well, often reporting it as 'Maidenhead to Shenfield' (only). Even now they rarely mention Abbey Wood, and suggest services running from Berkshire via Heathrow, rather than from Berkshire and Heathrow...

Hence just don't take BBC descriptions to be accurate.

If this allows more mainline services to finally stop at Clapham Junction during peak rush hour and outside it, what service frequencies will be cut from existing suburban services that could transfer to Cross Rail 2? I'm assuming the fast services would take over the paths of slower suburban services, since there would be no room otherwise.

In principle Crossrail at only 24 tph could take the whole of the existing SWT slow line services through Wimbledon, and then add a few more. This has been discussed in earlier threads in this forum, it was thought that there'd be a few SWT inner suburban services into Waterloo, to cater for local flows e.g. at Earlsfield, but as described in the London and SE RUS, you'd basically get a four track railway for use of long distance services, with significantly more mainline services operating, with stops at Clapham Jn becoming the norm.

But that document also described a situation where the tunnel portal would be between Raynes Park and Wimbledon, suggesting that Crossrail would be in tunnel at Wimbledon, so having its own dedicated platforms. The RUS also mentioned six tracking on the surface inbound from New Malden, presumably to allow services from the Epsom and Kingston branches to Crossrail to run independently of the 4 SWML tracks.

Seems there's loads of detail to be worked out, and really it is just far to early.

 

[infobleep]

The BBC report as usual simplifies things a lot, stating that Crossrail 2 will run from 'Cheshunt to Epsom'.

Describing various possible branches in detail would probably be considered a failure as their aim appears to generally dumb down their reports.

Most of their Crossrail 1 reporting over a number of years failed to describe that whole route as well, often reporting it as 'Maidenhead to Shenfield' (only). Even now they rarely mention Abbey Wood, and suggest services running from Berkshire via Heathrow, rather than from Berkshire and Heathrow...

Hence just don't take BBC descriptions to be accurate.



In principle Crossrail at only 24 tph could take the whole of the existing SWT slow line services through Wimbledon, and then add a few more. This has been discussed in earlier threads in this forum, it was thought that there'd be a few SWT inner suburban services into Waterloo, to cater for local flows e.g. at Earlsfield, but as described in the London and SE RUS, you'd basically get a four track railway for use of long distance services, with significantly more mainline services operating, with stops at Clapham Jn becoming the norm.

But that document also described a situation where the tunnel portal would be between Raynes Park and Wimbledon, suggesting that Crossrail would be in tunnel at Wimbledon, so having its own dedicated platforms. The RUS also mentioned six tracking on the surface inbound from New Malden, presumably to allow services from the Epsom and Kingston branches to Crossrail to run independently of the 4 SWML tracks.

Seems there's loads of detail to be worked out, and really it is just far to early.

I thought it the BBC report was poorly written but as I'd not seen the full report itself I decided not to state that.

I find a lot if the BBC news reports on their Web Site to be poorly structured. That's what happens when your writing for multiple services that have different paragraph limits.

 

[cle]

Any detail on electrification? Might it be AC/DC or all overhead? The Basingstoke to Southampton wiring project might eventually mean they do the whole lot.

If it terminated at Epsom, then I'd imagine Southern would take over the services to Dorking and Guildford via Bookham - if not perhaps Thameslink. Then two platforms could be dedicated at Epsom, with two 'through' and up towards Cheam (which would definitely need those loops back).

Unless they share with some Waterloo trains, but I prefer the idea of it being isolated. The other option is of course to run CR2 to Dorking/Guildford instead.

 

[59CosG95]

Any detail on electrification? Might it be AC/DC or all overhead? The Basingstoke to Southampton wiring project might eventually mean they do the whole lot.

If it terminated at Epsom, then I'd imagine Southern would take over the services to Dorking and Guildford via Bookham - if not perhaps Thameslink. Then two platforms could be dedicated at Epsom, with two 'through' and up towards Cheam (which would definitely need those loops back).

Unless they share with some Waterloo trains, but I prefer the idea of it being isolated. The other option is of course to run CR2 to Dorking/Guildford instead.

As far as electrification is concerned, I'd imagine that since the 455s/456s would be close to retirement by that time, so 3rd rail would be used for a time on the surface SW London lines, with AC/DC changeovers happening in the tunnel portal nr Wimbledon.

In ré Epsom, Southern/TLink takeover is probably the best solution (I'd prefer TLink), and reusing the Cheam loops is a good idea too.
Of course CR2 to Guildford is good too.

 

[AM9]

.... so 3rd rail would be used for a time on the surface SW London lines, with AC/DC changeovers happening in the tunnel portal nr Wimbledon.

Seeing this made me think, metro rail systems the world over do the exact opposite, i.e. use 3rd rail underground and switch to OHLE as they surface. Such is the incongruity of perpetuating the LSWR descision to use 3rd rail 100 years ago.

 

[hwl]

Any detail on electrification? Might it be AC/DC or all overhead? The Basingstoke to Southampton wiring project might eventually mean they do the whole lot.

If it terminated at Epsom, then I'd imagine Southern would take over the services to Dorking and Guildford via Bookham - if not perhaps Thameslink. Then two platforms could be dedicated at Epsom, with two 'through' and up towards Cheam (which would definitely need those loops back).

Unless they share with some Waterloo trains, but I prefer the idea of it being isolated. The other option is of course to run CR2 to Dorking/Guildford instead.

As all the remaining SWT Stock after opening would be dual voltage capable (i.e. 455/456s retired or 456 on the Ascot Shuttle etc for a bit longer) some branches might be converted to OHLE on CR2 opening while others might remain 3rd rail for a long time i.e. Twickenham?