Crossrail 2 route alterations

[swt_passenger]

As all the remaining SWT Stock after opening would be dual voltage capable (i.e. 455/456s retired or 456 on the Ascot Shuttle etc for a bit longer) some branches might be converted to OHLE on CR2 opening while others might remain 3rd rail for a long time i.e. Twickenham?

IIRC there are proposals that CR2 would run as far as Twickenham and terminate, which ought to be possible with a dedicated platform, and presumably splitting the current Kingston loop service. They'd also have to decide whether or not to maintain a service to Shepperton via Twickenham. But nothing insurmountable really.

 

[po8crg]

I'd have thought that Crossrail 2 would mean prioritising the lines it will run onto for DC>AC conversion - would mean using simpler (cheaper) AC-only trains for the CR2 system, like the Class 345s on Crossrail 1.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'd have thought that Crossrail 2 would mean prioritising the lines it will run onto for DC>AC conversion - would mean using simpler (cheaper) AC-only trains for the CR2 system, like the Class 345s on Crossrail 1.

There is very little difference between the relative complexity of 'AC only' and 'AC/DC' EMUs. In their internal power and traction system it is quite trivial to add shoe gear to what is nominally an AC train, because the AC train will always still have a DC link between the main transformer/rectiifer and the traction converter that produces the 3 phase AC for the motors. Adding shoe gear will have a cost, but it isn't huge compared to all the other hi-tech stuff.

I definitely do think though that CR2 needs to be operationally separated from the SWML. Joining the SWML slows on the down side, and then leaving again on the up side of Wimbledon leaves a four track bottleneck in an otherwise 6 track 'system', so prevents additional SWML long distance services running and completely contradicts the London and SE RUS proposals.

 

[edwin_m]

I guess DC vs AC is more a question of whether the upgrades needed to the DC supply make replacement more economical, and also whether the Waterloo area signalling has been replaced by then, as what is there now wouldn't be AC immune.

 

[swt_passenger]

I guess DC vs AC is more a question of whether the upgrades needed to the DC supply make replacement more economical, and also whether the Waterloo area signalling has been replaced by then, as what is there now wouldn't be AC immune.

Certainly, but I've also gone back and clarified that in the earlier post I was referring to the relatively complexity of the trains. I hope that CR2's tracks will be operationally separate, as with the Abbey Wood situation with CR1, but in this case they carry on elsewhere.

 

[The Ham]

I definitely do think though that CR2 needs to be operationally separated from the SWML. Joining the SWML slows on the down side, and then leaving again on the up side of Wimbledon leaves a four track bottleneck in an otherwise 6 track 'system', so prevents additional SWML long distance services running and completely contradicts the London and SE RUS proposals.

Given that there are other constraints elsewhere on the SWML (Woking and Basingstoke for instance), I doubt that it being restricted to four tracks would be that much of a problem in the sort term. Especially as Raynes Park station allows joining or leaving the main line to stop at the platform on the chords.

This then means any Crossrail 2 train going to Epsom or Chessington would not need to stop on the SWML even though they run on it between Wimbledon and Raynes Park.

 

[swt_passenger]

This then means any Crossrail 2 train going to Epsom or Chessington would not need to stop on the SWML even though they run on it between Wimbledon and Raynes Park.

The whole point of Crossrail 2 (according to both the London and SE RUS, and the TfL briefs) is to make that very same pair of tracks available for the trains that currently cross from slow to fast at Surbiton; which therefore frees up fast line paths to increase services further out, and allows for more stops at Clapham Jn.

Running Crossrail 2 on and off the slows doesn't add any capacity at all?

 

[Callum J]

The BBC Web Site new report suggests it will end in Epsom so does that mean Cross rail will end there but it will stop at other stations to allow connections with the South West mainline.

If this allows more mainline services to finally stop at Clapham Junction during peak rush hour and outside it, what service frequencies will be cut from existing suburban services that could transfer to Cross Rail 2? I'm assuming the fast services would take over the paths of slower suburban services, since there would be no room otherwise.

Clapham Junction is already horrifically overcrowded during the rush hour. Wouldn't it be better to encourage more interchanging between CR2 and mainline services at a re-built and expanded Wimbledon Station? Wimbledon has been needing a re-build for a long time, so hopefully this could be incorporated into the CR2 plans.

Could CR2 also envisage the rebuilding of Raynes Park station (whether a move to an underground station or a redesign above ground to accommodate extra tracks?)

 

[infobleep]

Clapham Junction is already horrifically overcrowded during the rush hour. Wouldn't it be better to encourage more interchanging between CR2 and mainline services at a re-built and expanded Wimbledon Station? Wimbledon has been needing a re-build for a long time, so hopefully this could be incorporated into the CR2 plans.

Could CR2 also envisage the rebuilding of Raynes Park station (whether a move to an underground station or a redesign above ground to accommodate extra tracks?)

Unfortunately so many other train services don't run from Wimbledon. End destinations from Clapham Junction include for example:
Milton Keynes
Stratford
Reading
East Grinstead
Brighton
Littlehampton
Portsmouth
Ore
London Victoria
Sutton
Horsham
And many others, not to mention all intermediate stations.

Isn't it any wonder that for years some commuters have wanted to change at Clapham Junction. The connections at Clapham Junction only seem to be increasing in number in recently years but all of this is denied to SWT mainline commuters in peak rush hour unless they switch to slower trains at Guildford or the combination of Woking and Surbiton. The reverse is also true in the evening.

Crossrail 2 could resolve these problems.

 

[KeithP]

Crossrail 2 could resolve these problems.

And probably will.

You are far too early to be defining that level of detail.

 

[59CosG95]

End destinations from Clapham Junction include for example:
Milton Keynes
Stratford
Reading
East Grinstead
Brighton
Littlehampton
Portsmouth
Ore
London Victoria
Sutton
Horsham
And many others, not to mention all intermediate stations.

More still would've been included, if XC ran via the WLL again... we can but dream of going direct to New Street from Clapham!

 

[The Ham]

Clapham Junction is already horrifically overcrowded during the rush hour. Wouldn't it be better to encourage more interchanging between CR2 and mainline services at a re-built and expanded Wimbledon Station? Wimbledon has been needing a re-build for a long time, so hopefully this could be incorporated into the CR2 plans.

Could CR2 also envisage the rebuilding of Raynes Park station (whether a move to an underground station or a redesign above ground to accommodate extra tracks?)

CR2 could remove the need for some people to change at Clapham Junction. For instance those who come in on SWT's services and change to get to Victoria.

 

[infobleep]

CR2 could remove the need for some people to change at Clapham Junction. For instance those who come in on SWT's services and change to get to Victoria.

I take it that would be local services because without changing at Woking and Surbiton; just Guildford or Waterloo itself, it's not possible to reach Victoria.

In fact if changing at Waterloo one would need to go to Green Park and then down the Victoria line. Whether that's quicker than changing at Guildford and/or Woking & Surbiton I don't know. I do know that Victoria is only 5 minutes by train from Clapham Junction.

Just another example of why an interchange at Clapham Junction would be so useful. I can't believe it won't happen. More a case of when than if. Well over due in my opinion.

 

[cle]

It will especially help Vauxhall massively, as well as Victoria.

Hopefully the Northern line too.

With those three relieved, possibly the time could be right to look at Victoria Line extension again - at least to Herne Hill should be feasible, but down Brixton Hill to Streatham might be more useful. Many of the same folk bus it to Brixton anyway, or use the trains to Victoria (and join the Vic line there) so much demand might be the same people.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It will especially help Vauxhall massively, as well as Victoria.

Hopefully the Northern line too.

Indeed, it'll hugely reduce overcrowding on several tube lines, as well as making so many journeys into central London vastly easier.

It's also going to make the fact that the Northern Line Battersea extension won't serve Clapham Junction look even sillier...

 

[Class 170101]

More still would've been included, if XC ran via the WLL again... we can but dream of going direct to New Street from Clapham!

I don't recall XC serving Clapham (either Junction or High Street) it used to pass through the latter and skirt the edge of the former as I recall on the time I used it.

 

[Busaholic]

Indeed, it'll hugely reduce overcrowding on several tube lines, as well as making so many journeys into central London vastly easier.

It's also going to make the fact that the Northern Line Battersea extension won't serve Clapham Junction look even sillier...

'They' i.e. TfL and other agencies are petrified that the Northern Line would be 'swamped' if it was extended to Clapham Junction, so the non-doms getting on at Battersea from the new, utterly-unaffordable housing there might even have to stand in the morning peak, which would be contrary to the assurances given to them by the developer. I'd like to think a new Mayor in 2016 could stop this project from progressing any further and instead focus on e.g. extension of the Bakerloo into S.E. London and Crossrail 2.

 

[Class 170101]

Sadly it shows that those with money can buy influence, I agree witrh Dynamic Spirit that not extending the Northern Line to Clapham Junction will / does look very silly.

 

[cle]

'They' i.e. TfL and other agencies are petrified that the Northern Line would be 'swamped' if it was extended to Clapham Junction, so the non-doms getting on at Battersea from the new, utterly-unaffordable housing there might even have to stand in the morning peak, which would be contrary to the assurances given to them by the developer. I'd like to think a new Mayor in 2016 could stop this project from progressing any further and instead focus on e.g. extension of the Bakerloo into S.E. London and Crossrail 2.

I don't think the Malaysian and Singaporean speculators will be on the tube much, if they ever even set foot in their apartments... shocking.

It should definitely go to Clapham, and probably along to Richmond or similar (Twickenham) - closing the two intermediate stations after Barnes.

 

[Busaholic]

I don't think the Malaysian and Singaporean speculators will be on the tube much, if they ever even set foot in their apartments... shocking.

It should definitely go to Clapham, and probably along to Richmond or similar (Twickenham) - closing the two intermediate stations after Barnes.

Tell you what, scrap Battersea as a stop and extend it to Clapham Junction instead - then the trains which had been intended to continue to turn at Kennington can also be extended: there are sufficient spares in the recent order to the manufacturers to cater for this.

 

[NotATrainspott]

The cost of extending the NLE to Clapham Junction from Battersea isn't going to be particularly high given that the extension was designed specifically to make this easy. Most likely the CR2 station and the NLEE would be built at the same time so that they could share construction shafts, with the NLEE being tunnelled towards the over-run so that there would be almost no need for any construction work on the operational railway as possible.

 

[cle]

I'm actually ok with the Battersea stop - I think it could be integrated better with NR and marketed as an interchange with Southern and SWT. I'd also like four tracking of the SE lines and a local stop for Orpingtons/Dartfords. Would need some track rearranging though.

What would make it worthwhile is another station before Clapham Junction by Latchmere Road - actually in the centre of Battersea and giving some new tube access to incumbent South Londoners...seemingly impossible.

 

[po8crg]

I think the medium-term plan for the Northern Line is to split it at Camden Town and make one line Edgeware - West End - Battersea and the other High Barnet - City - Morden.

Once they've done that, the extension from Battersea to Clapham Junction would make sense.

The complete reconstruction of Camden Town station required to split the lines and have enough room for all the interchanging passengers (the only other interchange stations will be Euston and Kennington) may be one reason for wanting to keep Clapham off the map until after that is complete.

 

[Olaf]

With the currently proposed time-scales for CR2 there is going to be quite a bit of overlap with the work proposed for the re-work of Waterloo and with the schedule for renewal of the signalling.

 

[Olaf]

The cost estimates have now been revised upwards, with the inclusion of additional items:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-30228899

http://crossrail2.co.uk/funding/

http://1267lm2nzpvy44li8s48uorode.w...4/Crossrail-2-Funding-and-Financing-Study.pdf

 

[Olaf]

'They' i.e. TfL and other agencies are petrified that the Northern Line would be 'swamped' if it was extended to Clapham Junction, so the non-doms getting on at Battersea from the new, utterly-unaffordable housing there might even have to stand in the morning peak, which would be contrary to the assurances given to them by the developer. I'd like to think a new Mayor in 2016 could stop this project from progressing any further and instead focus on e.g. extension of the Bakerloo into S.E. London and Crossrail 2.

This is not just a residential area, there will also be new commercial premises in there so it is a reasonable expectation that there will be commuting into Battersea as well. Concerns about extension of the line to Clapham Junction are reasonable - the area will be better served by CR2.

 

[infobleep]

This is not just a residential area, there will also be new commercial premises in there so it is a reasonable expectation that there will be commuting into Battersea as well. Concerns about extension of the line to Clapham Junction are reasonable - the area will be better served by CR2.

If and when CR2 happens? Is it definitely happening?

 

[edwin_m]

If and when CR2 happens? Is it definitely happening?

No. TfL has spent quite a bit of money developing it and intends to spend more, and the route is safeguarded against conflicting developments. But there are no legal powers or funding to build it.

 

[infobleep]

Thanks for that edwin_m.

 

[The Ham]

If and when CR2 happens? Is it definitely happening?

As stated above no, however my reading of the Wessex Route strategy document seams to infer NR are in favour of it as a way to improve capacity on the SWML.