CrossCountry Voyagers: Due a refurbishment?

[Anvil1984]

Virgin trains only broadcasted the BBC radio stations live. All other stations were pre-recorded onto CD and changed every 3 months. The stations may (and i stress may) have been recorded by either virgin radio or virgin records under license arrangements or on behalf of the rail franchises thereby cross subsidising sister companies.

If other stations were heared it will most likely be as a result of the radio stations being retuned by the train manager, probably as a result of reception issues or a reported fault. The radios used FM with RDS/EON so the radio should have retuned automatically, retaining lock on the selected radio station. On voyagers this was supposed to be radio 4.
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I tried to use wifi in first class on a voyager glasgow bound from Newcastle. As soon as the suburbs of Newcastle was departed internet connection was lost and did not return in any useable capacity until Musselburgh/wallyford area. Again once past edinburgh and out in the country the wifi again became totally unusable. Sadly my 3 mobile fared little bettter due to the polarised windows which unfortunately blocks mobile reception.

Had i paid for that service in standard i would have been very annoyed at paying for a service that was virtually useless.

There was times randomly BBC Radio 1 appeared when the radio was fiddled with IIRC

 

[thenorthern]

Saw inside Coach F of a 9 coach Pendo today and they don't have radio's inside them although there is a cover on where the radio was.

 

[HSTFan57]

I'd like to see the Voyager Faraday Cage effect weakened slightly, so it's possible to receive GPS signals inside them. When a train is running late and it's dark outside, I like to have a way of working out where I currently am. With so many portable electronic devices having integrated GPS receivers, it seems slightly bizarre that Voyagers are so good at blocking GPS.

 

[Goatboy]

Nothing to say you couldn't use a portable battery powered Wi-Fi device like you can find on amazon & a mobile broadband sim to connect to a tablet.

On Amazon you can get a preloaded 6Gb data sim on EE for £15, a portable Wi-Fi unit for £60 upwards and you're done.

Good look getting that to work on an XC Voyager. It's like a signal deadzone onboard one of those. Meanwhile any other type of stock over the same routes works fine..

 

[XC victim]

I would love to see full length intercity trains return to the xc network, but looks unlikely certainly during this franchise. I travel a lot between Leeds and Birmingham, Manchester and Birmingham and between Birmingham and Reading. All of these services are chronically overcrowded (I don't know what services are like from Birmingham to the southwest).

When the services are operated by a 4coach class 220 voyager there are many people standing through out the train, often for 2 or 3 hours. This makes the catering trolley completely pointless.

However when the service is operated by a 5 coach class 221 there is just about enough seats for everyone with very few people standing. If they could some how get all the voyager units upto 5 coach units this would make the journey at least tolerable if not particularly pleasant.

 

[The Ham]

I would love to see full length intercity trains return to the xc network, but looks unlikely certainly during this franchise. I travel a lot between Leeds and Birmingham, Manchester and Birmingham and between Birmingham and Reading. All of these services are chronically overcrowded (I don't know what services are like from Birmingham to the southwest).

When the services are operated by a 4coach class 220 voyager there are many people standing through out the train, often for 2 or 3 hours. This makes the catering trolley completely pointless.

However when the service is operated by a 5 coach class 221 there is just about enough seats for everyone with very few people standing. If they could some how get all the voyager units upto 5 coach units this would make the journey at least tolerable if not particularly pleasant.

It wouldn't take many units to significantly improve things, on other threads I have pointed out that for each new unit (often citing the ICWC 221's) it could improve 3 existing services. I have also suggested (on a thread about scrapping units, in this case end coaches) that with the ICWC 221's and 12 new dual voltage EMU's for Southcoast to Manchester services (6 or 7 coaches long) there would be a significant increase in capacity:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2385212&postcount=50

If XC get 10 EMU's for south coast to Manchester and some 221's from ICWC then it would be possible to covert all the 4 coach 220's into a mixture of 6 and 7 coach trains (8 sets of 7 and 7 sets of 6 or 12 sets of 7 and 2 sets if 6). Although there could be a good case made for keeping some 220's with 4 coaches to be used as crowd busters in the core by being paired with other units.

A 7 coach set would (assuming that each end coach was first class, although it could be configured difficultly and still be the same) would result in a train with 95% of the capacity of a pair of 220's.

That would mean that XC could end up with:
12 x 6 or 7 coach EMU's (replacing 221's)
12 x 7 coach 220's (replacing 221's)
2 x 6 coach 220's (one spare and one which replaces a 220)
33 x 5 coach 221's (23 from XC and 10 from ICWC, replacing all bar one of the 220's)

The remaining 10 sets of 221's could then be reformed into 4 sets with 9 coaches (with one spare coach and one coach lengthening the one 4 coach 221 to be 5 coaches long. That would almost replace the XC HST's. Although with the much longer sets (bearing in mind that the rest of the XC fleet has more capacity so they are in less demand).

In summary, with just Voyagers and 12 new build EMU's XC could see a significant increase in capacity over the existing (without increasing the total number of units by many) including some sets which are running permanently with nearly the same capacity as a pair of 220's and with nearly enough 221's to replace every service run by 220's (bearing in mind less will need to run paired up) with the remaining 220 replaced by a 6 coach 220. That is without ANY 222's.

 

[sprinterguy]

I would love to see full length intercity trains return to the xc network, but looks unlikely certainly during this franchise. I travel a lot between Leeds and Birmingham, Manchester and Birmingham and between Birmingham and Reading. All of these services are chronically overcrowded (I don't know what services are like from Birmingham to the southwest).

When the services are operated by a 4coach class 220 voyager there are many people standing through out the train, often for 2 or 3 hours. This makes the catering trolley completely pointless.

However when the service is operated by a 5 coach class 221 there is just about enough seats for everyone with very few people standing. If they could some how get all the voyager units upto 5 coach units this would make the journey at least tolerable if not particularly pleasant.

A perceptive and realistic analysis of the current situation.

I have held for some time that, on the majority of Crosscountry services, demand could be realistically met with a mix of 5 and 7 carriage trains. The Ham's proposed method of strengthening services (where 1 additional 5-car 221 results in 2 x 4-car and 1 x 5-car diagrams becoming 1 x 8-car and 2 x 5-car diagrams, rather than the more elaborate process of reforming units quoted above) seems to me to offer a very effective way to achieve such an increase in capacity (actually creating a mix of 5 and 8 carriage services, so slightly better than my own assertions) with a modest and realistic increase in rolling stock.

I think that sort of increase is the most that we can expect to see on the Crosscountry network in the medium term (although itself unlikely during the current franchise, direct award included).

 

[XC victim]

It wouldn't take many units to significantly improve things

The problem is don't believe there are any plans for XC to increase capacity during this franchise so it looks like any improvement won't be for at least 5 years probably much longer

It would appear that because XC doesn't run into London, it is not seen as a an important intercity service thus passengers are expected to stand for parts of their journeys without any catering facilities even though they are travelling long distance.

I actually have nothing against the voyager trains and on the rare occasion I have got a seat I have found them quite comfortable (although obviously I much prefer a HST)

 

[The Ham]

The problem is don't believe there are any plans for XC to increase capacity during this franchise so it looks like any improvement won't be for at least 5 years probably much longer

It would appear that because XC doesn't run into London, it is not seen as a an important intercity service thus passengers are expected to stand for parts of their journeys without any catering facilities even though they are travelling long distance.

I actually have nothing against the voyager trains and on the rare occasion I have got a seat I have found them quite comfortable (although obviously I much prefer a HST)

No plans in this franchise, however if other franchises are anything to go by there could be some improvements during the direct award period. Although given the rolling stock available that could be more use of their HST's (as the Voyagers go off lease with few others looking to take them on so scope to get a better deal on them) and/or more HST's (as they become available).

 

[sprinterguy]

The problem is don't believe there are any plans for XC to increase capacity during this franchise so it looks like any improvement won't be for at least 5 years probably much longer

Yeah, I think that the earliest we can expect to see additional rolling stock on Crosscountry's long distance services would be as a result of developments with the West Coast franchise that sees Voyagers released from there. Even so, that's likely to be 2020 and into the next franchise.

No change for a further five years, while passenger numbers presumably keep on growing: There's a depressing thought for those of us who use the trains.

 

[The Ham]

Yeah, I think that the earliest we can expect to see additional rolling stock on Crosscountry's long distance services would be as a result of developments with the West Coast franchise that sees Voyagers released from there. Even so, that's likely to be 2020 and into the next franchise.

No change for a further five years, while passenger numbers presumably keep on growing: There's a depressing thought for those of us who use the trains.

During 2018 the ECML HST's are likely to become available, depending on how the electrification of the GWML goes there could be a few of the GWML HST's (due to be replaced in 2017 by 80x's).

That would provide some extra capacity until the start of the next franchise, although the new franchise would have to get the replacements for the HST's fairly promptly.

 

[sprinterguy]

During 2018 the ECML HST's are likely to become available, depending on how the electrification of the GWML goes there could be a few of the GWML HST's (due to be replaced in 2017 by 80x's).

That would provide some extra capacity until the start of the next franchise, although the new franchise would have to get the replacements for the HST's fairly promptly.

Personally I don't expect any major rolling stock initiatives on the inter-city front (possibly a few additional 170s from Scotrail for regional services, maybe?) as part of the direct award, though, beyond increased usage of the existing HST sets.

 

[The Ham]

Personally I don't expect any major rolling stock initiatives on the inter-city front (possibly a few additional 170s from Scotrail for regional services, maybe?) as part of the direct award, though, beyond increased usage of the existing HST sets.

However, even using the HST's more would brig some improvements.

For instance:
- One HST used to replace a pair of 220's
- the pair of 220's in turn replace a 221
- the 221 replaces a 220
- that 220 is paired with another 220 to replace a 221
- the 221 is used to enable the 220 to be available to pair up

That is 5 services which see an improvement because one train is used all the time rather than just infrequently.

 

[Minilad]

The problem with using longer trains is that it may well cause problems at certain stations with regard to platform usage

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with using longer trains is that it may well cause problems at certain stations with regard to platform usage

Given that all XC stations used to be served by 7-car HSTs or Mk2 LHCS I doubt there will be much of an issue there.

 

[Minilad]

Given that all XC stations used to be served by 7-car HSTs or Mk2 LHCS I doubt there will be much of an issue there.

I am not referring to platform length. I am taking about certain stations, very busy ones, where the shorter train length can fit on half a platform and thus have two trains on the platform at the same time. This may not be the case if longer trains are used. Birmingham New St, Reading and Manchester Pic are three such stations. This could cause quite a few problems at certain times

 

[edwin_m]

During 2018 the ECML HST's are likely to become available, depending on how the electrification of the GWML goes there could be a few of the GWML HST's (due to be replaced in 2017 by 80x's).

That would provide some extra capacity until the start of the next franchise, although the new franchise would have to get the replacements for the HST's fairly promptly.

There are at least three factors complicating HST cascade at the moment:
(1) Until there is some certainty on the GW electrification programme and/or the fitting of diesel engines to the electric GW SET units, it is not clear when GW HSTs will be released.
(2) Refurbished ones are also required for Scotland, and these might be the EC units if enough GW ones aren't available in whatever the timescales are.
(3) Delay to MML electrification means that HSTs will be needed there beyond the 2020 accessibility deadline. There are various options including a derogation to run them for a few more years without major modifications. Conversely if they are modified then they might be an option for XC when the electrification is finished.

HS2 also complicates the situation. On current plans there will be a much faster high capacity service in 2032 at least every hour between Birmingham and Manchester/Leeds/Newcastle, relieving the core of the XC network and possibly continuing further north. This will take some of the biggest passenger flows off the XC network which will then be catering for intermediate stations not served by HS2, and for people going beyond the core.

This could mean that the optimum service provision and train length was quite similar to today's, and it certainly means that any capacity boost in the meantime is a stopgap rather than a long-term measure. So if any can be found, refurbished HSTs might suit this rather well.

 

[The Ham]

There are at least three factors complicating HST cascade at the moment:
(1) Until there is some certainty on the GW electrification programme and/or the fitting of diesel engines to the electric GW SET units, it is not clear when GW HSTs will be released.
(2) Refurbished ones are also required for Scotland, and these might be the EC units if enough GW ones aren't available in whatever the timescales are.
(3) Delay to MML electrification means that HSTs will be needed there beyond the 2020 accessibility deadline. There are various options including a derogation to run them for a few more years without major modifications. Conversely if they are modified then they might be an option for XC when the electrification is finished.

HS2 also complicates the situation. On current plans there will be a much faster high capacity service in 2032 at least every hour between Birmingham and Manchester/Leeds/Newcastle, relieving the core of the XC network and possibly continuing further north. This will take some of the biggest passenger flows off the XC network which will then be catering for intermediate stations not served by HS2, and for people going beyond the core.

This could mean that the optimum service provision and train length was quite similar to today's, and it certainly means that any capacity boost in the meantime is a stopgap rather than a long-term measure. So if any can be found, refurbished HSTs might suit this rather well.

I wouldn't worry about post HS2 as between now and then passenger growth could be 50% (based on 2.5% per year) or more. Meaning that although the core may get relief there could still be plenty of work. As some of the edges of the network may get busier taking more people to connect with HS2 services.

Yes it would probably make sense for there to be some Voyagers left at that point but 12 new units (6 or 7 coaches) built in the early 2020's will still have work.

 

[swt_passenger]

There are at least three factors complicating HST cascade at the moment:
(1) Until there is some certainty on the GW electrification programme and/or the fitting of diesel engines to the electric GW SET units, it is not clear when GW HSTs will be released.
(2) Refurbished ones are also required for Scotland, and these might be the EC units if enough GW ones aren't available in whatever the timescales are.

An FGW insider, (posting in wnxx a few days ago), has said the HSTs to Scotland will definitely move as planned. Hitachi are expected to deliver the bi-mode fleet as planned.

I've suggested in earlier posts here that if Hitachi deliver the bi-mode IEPs in accordance with the schedule shown in the franchise agreement (all the bi-modes arrive before the first electric units) there is about a year spare for each transferring HST to be overhauled before it is due with Scotrail.

 

[aleandrail]

set 28 has new seat upholstery

 

[superalbs]

set 28 has new seat upholstery

220028?
221128?

Is it just new copies of the Virgin desgin, or the actual XC upholstery from the HSTs and 170s?

 

[aleandrail]

set 28, virgin design I think.

virgin set 107 is the first one to have leather seats fitted in first class and the duel use carriage has new upholstery similar to the other three carriages but retains all the tables

 

[jayah]

I don't much like voyagers, but at a time of rising overcrowding on many routes I cant support scrapping relatively new trains.

IMHO the most sensible options would be to build some new, full length, proper intercity trains and use these on the longer cross country routes. Cascade the wretched voyagers to secondary routes, after a basic refurb.

Alternatively, refurbish the voyagers to a proper inter city specification with better leg room, more luggage space, non stinky toilets, and more comfortable seats. Use as permanent double units to give a proper full length inter city train.
Supplement the fleet with some of the soon to be surplus HSTs.
This not a long term solution owing to the age of the HSTs, but could be a good short term solution.

What ever happened to Project Thor? 1 extra pantograph car in each set, 80 seats, two small toilets would make a huge difference. With the isolation of diesel engines it would need no extra diesel horsepower.

Otherwise it is very difficult, both Voyagers and 180s are IC stock that cannot perform IC duties as wherever you send a 250 seat train at 1700 it will be overwhelmed. Pity the AT300 came late to the party. Scotland is probably the least bad option if they need to relocate, with HSTs on Bournemouth / Plymouth circuits. In other words where they should have stayed!
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(3) Delay to MML electrification means that HSTs will be needed there beyond the 2020 accessibility deadline. There are various options including a derogation to run them for a few more years without major modifications.

During the all too brief 'pause' George Muir highlighted the wisdom (or lack) of electrifying a line that has only just had new diesel trains, where electrification will bring almost negligible journey time improvement. Sadly politics comes first, and whatever 'they' have, every Tom and Dick now demands.

 

[edwin_m]

During the all too brief 'pause' George Muir highlighted the wisdom (or lack) of electrifying a line that has only just had new diesel trains, where electrification will bring almost negligible journey time improvement. Sadly politics comes first, and whatever 'they' have, every Tom and Dick now demands.

"Only just" being 2004 in the case of the Meridians, which will be getting close to 20 years old by the time electrification is completed.

Unlike most railway projects, MML electrification was predicted to pay for itself financially without having to consider non-financial benefits. This may no longer be so after cost increases since then, but it does give an indication that the project is at least as much worth doing as any other electrification.

 

[sprinterguy]

What ever happened to Project Thor?

I think that it was chalked up as being prohibitively expensive at the price Bombardier were offering. Shame, it was a really good idea.

Otherwise it is very difficult, both Voyagers and 180s are IC stock that cannot perform IC duties as wherever you send a 250 seat train at 1700 it will be overwhelmed.

Actually, Crosscountry services out of Manchester in the evening peak would be fine with 250 seats. The problem is that they use 200 seat 4-car units on these services.

I think that 250 seat trains would actually be quite well suited to many provincial inter-city journeys over what they have now: For example Manchester - Cardiff, Cardiff - Portsmouth, Edinburgh/Glasgow - Aberdeen/Inverness. In the latter case this is in fact what will be happening when short HSTs are introduced to the routes.

 

[class26]

I think that it was chalked up as being prohibitively expensive at the price Bombardier were offering. Shame, it was a really good idea.

Actually, Crosscountry services out of Manchester in the evening peak would be fine with 250 seats. The problem is that they use 200 seat 4-car units on these services.

I think that 250 seat trains would actually be quite well suited at peak times to many provincial inter-city journeys over what they have now: For example Manchester - Cardiff, Cardiff - Portsmouth, Edinburgh/Glasgow - Aberdeen/Inverness. In the latter case this is in fact what will be happening when short HSTs are introduced to the routes.

The idea behind Thor was , at the beginning of the financial crisis to create jobs in the UK so when it turned out not only to be very expensive BUT was largely going to be outsourced to European factories (I forget which) the idea was quietly abandoned.

 

[edwin_m]

The idea behind Thor was , at the beginning of the financial crisis to create jobs in the UK so when it turned out not only to be very expensive BUT was largely going to be outsourced to European factories (I forget which) the idea was quietly abandoned.

I think it was Bombardier's traction package factory in Sweden, not the Alstom Preston plant that supplied traction equipment for the Voyagers when built. Bombardier had no railway electric traction package experience prior to taking over ADtranz.

The other problem with this project was the need to run fat DC traction cables through from the new pantograph car to supply the motors on each of the other cars.

 

[rjholt]

I had the misfortune to be leaving Birmingham at 17:00 to Derby and in rolls a 4 car Vomiter. The Bakerloo line at the same time of the day would have more breathing space. I noted this to XC customer 'care' who just sent me a stock answer.

Problem is for the fare paying passenger, what can be done to expedite change?

 

[Domh245]

I think it was Bombardier's traction package factory in Sweden, not the Alstom Preston plant that supplied traction equipment for the Voyagers when built. Bombardier had no railway electric traction package experience prior to taking over ADtranz.

The other problem with this project was the need to run fat DC traction cables through from the new pantograph car to supply the motors on each of the other cars.

And the fact that the car bodies would have been built and assembled by Bombardier Belgium and not Bombardier Derby

 

[superalbs]

221112 is now out with leather seating.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXWH9G8WsAAa3gK.jpg