Cross Country's capacity issues: how could they be solved?

[The Planner]

Why can't WMR maintain them? At least until the 730s come in, when they (presumably?) will need the depot space.

Where? They out stable a load of their stock as it is.

 

[swt_passenger]

Why can't WMR maintain them? At least until the 730s come in, when they (presumably?) will need the depot space.

If you’re still referring to the ex TPE 350/4s here, they aren’t available to XC.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Where? They out stable a load of their stock as it is.

Fair enough, didn't realise they didn't have any spare space.

 

[Mark J]

The GWR Oxford - Banbury stopper is only 2 hourly, and doesn't run on Sundays outside the summer months (and even then it's only 3/4 trains each way a day)

Back in the 90's, didn't Thames Trains used to run to Stratford-Upon-Avon, via Leamington Spa?

Shame this was stopped. It would highly beneficial nowadays.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Back in the 90's, didn't Thames Trains used to run to Stratford-Upon-Avon, via Leamington Spa?

Shame this was stopped. It would highly beneficial nowadays.

Yes they did. They also ran a Oxford-Bristol service that ceased in 2003 and Stratford-upon-Avon stopped in December 2004 (when it was under First Great Western link) when Stratford services were transferred to Chiltern Railways

 

[anthony263]

Bristol to Oxford service would e a good route especially when east West is fully operational

 

[Fearless]

They also ran a Oxford-Bristol service that ceased in 2003

I remember being on one of those services and cringing at the guard's announcement to change at Oxford for "Bye-cess-ter" (Bicester). Should I have said something? I don't want to embarrass anyone, but nor do I want them to carry on embarrassing themselves!

 

[anamyd]

On an absolutely beyond rammed 170-636 right now (0750 from Burton towards Cardiff Central which came from Nottingham) to Birmingham New Street, it's formed of the single 3-car unit instead of double 2-cars. I can't stand completely upright, my feet aren't even flat on the floor (!) and the TM/guard is frequently apologising to passengers on the PA and acknowledging that the conditions are unacceptable and said he'll be making a complaint and is asking for some sort of early termination / set swap. I don't usually catch this particular service so am not in the best position to see what it gets like on multiple occasions...

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

On an absolutely beyond rammed 170/6 right now (0750 from Burton towards Cardiff Central which came from Nottingham) to Birmingham New Street, it's formed of the single 3-car unit instead of double 2-cars. I can't stand completely upright, my feet aren't even flat on the floor (!) and the TM/guard is frequently apologising to passengers on the PA and acknowledging that the conditions are unacceptable and said he'll be making a complaint and is asking for some sort of early termination / set swap. I don't usually catch this particular service so am not in the best position to see what it gets like on multiple occasions...

The 07:38 from Burton-on-Trent is a 7-coach HST normally, subject to availability, so you'd have been better on that one. It's very rare people complain of no seats on a XC HST.

As nice as the Voyagers and Turbostars are and the fact I've had a number of positive experiences on these, I much prefer an HST over the shorter trains.

I'm not sure if you're aware but the HST's have a Quiet Coach, G, with about 65 seats. The Quiet Zones are on virtually every window or all of them.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

On an absolutely beyond rammed 170/6 right now (0750 from Burton towards Cardiff Central which came from Nottingham) to Birmingham New Street, it's formed of the single 3-car unit instead of double 2-cars. I can't stand completely upright, my feet aren't even flat on the floor (!) and the TM/guard is frequently apologising to passengers on the PA and acknowledging that the conditions are unacceptable and said he'll be making a complaint and is asking for some sort of early termination / set swap. I don't usually catch this particular service so am not in the best position to see what it gets like on multiple occasions...

Sorry, just noticed some of the other points you've said - it's the first time I've read that the guard is requesting a set swap given the unacceptable conditions. However, I doubt XC would have a spare 170 available otherwise they'd attach it to the 3-car train.

I'm not sure if it was late 2017 or early last year but someone on GWR's Twitter feed reported that the driver of a Portsmouth-bound train (I think a 2-car Class 150 instead of the usual 3-car 158) was reported to have refused to carry on from Westbury until extra coaches were attached, given the number of passengers onboard.

It was I believe a 30-minute stand off!

 

[cactustwirly]

On an absolutely beyond rammed 170/6 right now (0750 from Burton towards Cardiff Central which came from Nottingham) to Birmingham New Street, it's formed of the single 3-car unit instead of double 2-cars. I can't stand completely upright, my feet aren't even flat on the floor (!) and the TM/guard is frequently apologising to passengers on the PA and acknowledging that the conditions are unacceptable and said he'll be making a complaint and is asking for some sort of early termination / set swap. I don't usually catch this particular service so am not in the best position to see what it gets like on multiple occasions...

Luxury compared to the Leicester side, which is frequently a 2 car 170

 

[anamyd]

Luxury compared to the Leicester side, which is frequently a 2 car 170

"Luxury" (!) just means more people being able to get on I take it, seeing as it was the most rammed train I had ever been on...?! As was announced (possibly by the driver instead of the guard, not sure), it was in fact unacceptable!!! It's completely mad that new bigger trains don't seem to be on order for CrossCountry... The conditions are unacceptable so why is nothing being done about them?!

 

[AndrewE]

"Luxury" (!) just means more people being able to get on I take it, seeing as it was the most rammed train I had ever been on...?! As was announced (possibly by the driver instead of the guard, not sure), it was in fact unacceptable!!! It's completely mad that new bigger trains don't seem to be on order for CrossCountry... The conditions are unacceptable so why is nothing being done about them?!

Because it's not a route that serves London?

 

[anamyd]

Because it's not a route that serves London?

Not an excuse! Does anyone know if any kind of extra stock is being looked into or anything like that...?

 

[anamyd]

The 07:38 from Burton-on-Trent is a 7-coach HST normally, subject to availability, so you'd have been better on that one. It's very rare people complain of no seats on a XC HST.

As nice as the Voyagers and Turbostars are and the fact I've had a number of positive experiences on these, I much prefer an HST over the shorter trains.

I'm not sure if you're aware but the HST's have a Quiet Coach, G, with about 65 seats. The Quiet Zones are on virtually every window or all of them.

The 0738 intercity service towards Plymouth was delayed and expected a minute later than the 0750 regional service towards Cardiff, and I deliberately went on the 170 because I like 170s I was thinking more generally about people than just me, and the type of service and/or where it serves is no excuse for passengers not having their personal space they have the right to! Something really needs to be done about this as soon as possible, such as longer trains perhaps...

 

[VT 390]

In the short term if XC cannot get new stock quick enougth they could take on the WMR 170's as they will not be needed when there 196's arrive.

 

[cactustwirly]

In the short term if XC cannot get new stock quick enougth they could take on the WMR 170's as they will not be needed when there 196's arrive.

Nope they're going to EMR

 

[Dr Hoo]

Nope they're going to EMR

Why East Midlands Railway thought that it would be a good idea to copy the colloquial name of a leading scrap metal merchant (European Metal Recycling who seem to trade as EMR) I will never know.

Talk about ‘Scrapheap Challenge’...

I presume that the Class 170 aren’t going to be transformed into razor blades?

 

[anamyd]

Why East Midlands Railway thought that it would be a good idea to copy the colloquial name of a leading scrap metal merchant (European Metal Recycling who seem to trade as EMR) I will never know.

Talk about ‘Scrapheap Challenge’...

I presume that the Class 170 aren’t going to be transformed into razor blades?

the outgoing West Midlands Railway 170s are going to East Midlands Railway, but CrossCountry really is overdue extra or longer trains and I really don't get why any aren't already on order...

 

[JamesT]

the outgoing West Midlands Railway 170s are going to East Midlands Railway, but CrossCountry really is overdue extra or longer trains and I really don't get why any aren't already on order...

Because we're in limbo waiting for the DfT to decide what the future of the franchise is? No TOC will order new stock when they might lose control within a couple of years.

 

[geoffk]

They aren’t being “dumped” by TPE, they are known to be going to LNR (WCML).

Then there are other electric units off-lease, such as 365s. Manchester - Birmingham has been electrified for more than 50 years yet it has a 100% diesel service. Also there was a plan to add a pantograph car to the Voyagers - why was that scrapped?

 

[VT 390]

Then there are other electric units off-lease, such as 365s. Manchester - Birmingham has been electrified for more than 50 years yet it has a 100% diesel service. Also there was a plan to add a pantograph car to the Voyagers - why was that scrapped?

I don't think this is entirely true as I thought Virgin operated a southbound Pendolino in the morning unless this no longer runs?
But yes almost all the Birmingham to Manchester services are diesel operated which is not a good thing, especially as there are spare electric units which could release Voyagers to other routes, though I am against places in the south loosing there direct Manchester services, perhaps bi-modes could be used on XC.

 

[Taunton]

Then there are other electric units off-lease, such as 365s. Manchester - Birmingham has been electrified for more than 50 years yet it has a 100% diesel service. Also there was a plan to add a pantograph car to the Voyagers - why was that scrapped?

The pantograph/transformer car always looked like a good idea, although it would have been an interesting electrical challenge to get working faultlessly. Because the units are diesel-electric transmission it would have solved two issues at once - overcrowding by adding an extra car, and electric haulage on electric lines. They didn't quite extend it to DC power on Basingstoke to Bournemouth.

It failed the financial test because it didn't produce enough additional revenue (extra tickets) to cover the extra cost (new vehicles and commissioning). Seating long distance passengers who already have to stand but have paid doesn't make it into such an analysis. And the diesel on electric argument doesn't enter into it either. I understand that because of what NR charge for electricity, it's cheaper to use diesel fuel (bought from the lowest competitive fuel supply bidder) than their current (bought from a monopoly supplier only at full rate). So another downside for the conversion.

 

[swt_passenger]

Then there are other electric units off-lease, such as 365s. Manchester - Birmingham has been electrified for more than 50 years yet it has a 100% diesel service. Also there was a plan to add a pantograph car to the Voyagers - why was that scrapped?

XC Manchester services operate through to Bournemouth or Bristol (or further). That’s presumably why they aren’t operated by EMUs. Splitting the service at New St and forcing changes would probably be seen as a serious degradation of the service by many passengers.

I don’t think dragging the proposal back up every few months is going to make it any more likely.

 

[anamyd]

Because we're in limbo waiting for the DfT to decide what the future of the franchise is? No TOC will order new stock when they might lose control within a couple of years.

true, but two more years of standing passengers being in each others' personal space and unable to move at all is hardly ideal...

 

[absolutelymilk]

I understand that because of what NR charge for electricity, it's cheaper to use diesel fuel (bought from the lowest competitive fuel supply bidder) than their current (bought from a monopoly supplier only at full rate). So another downside for the conversion.

Not sure where you got that from, VTWC have a fleet which is 15% diesel but diesel makes up 40% of their traction costs (see p. 37 here) https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pd...anding-the-rolling-stock-costs-of-uk-tocs.pdf

 

[The Ham]

The pantograph/transformer car always looked like a good idea, although it would have been an interesting electrical challenge to get working faultlessly. Because the units are diesel-electric transmission it would have solved two issues at once - overcrowding by adding an extra car, and electric haulage on electric lines. They didn't quite extend it to DC power on Basingstoke to Bournemouth.

It failed the financial test because it didn't produce enough additional revenue (extra tickets) to cover the extra cost (new vehicles and commissioning). Seating long distance passengers who already have to stand but have paid doesn't make it into such an analysis. And the diesel on electric argument doesn't enter into it either. I understand that because of what NR charge for electricity, it's cheaper to use diesel fuel (bought from the lowest competitive fuel supply bidder) than their current (bought from a monopoly supplier only at full rate). So another downside for the conversion.

IIRC there were two main reasons.

Firstly the extra coaches weren't going to be made in the UK (if they had some of the extra costs could have been accepted as the extra taxes/pay would have paid back the extra costs).

To go longer than 5 coaches would have meant having two extra coaches to have two pantographs. Which meant that every 5 coach unit would have needed to become 7 coaches. However no one thought to suggest that you create a fleet of 5 & 9 coach trains (so some units got a new coach but didn't get longer, but others got quite a bit longer).

That would have resulted in a fleet of (if I've got my numbers right):
34 x 5 coach 220's
16 x 5 coach 221's
7 x 9 coach 221's

Requiring 64 extra coaches, compared with 79 of you ended up with the following:
34 x 5 coach 220's
1 x 5 coach 221
22 x 7 coach 221's

Either was you were going to end up with an expensive build cost as is less than 100 coaches, but with ~20% fewer coaches the costs could have been more acceptable. Although there would have been the real risk that XC would have been asked to drop the HST's, so that the overall increase in capacity may not have been as big (mostly the 35 x 5 coach units having been lengthen from 4 coaches and the extra 2 x 9 coach units after allocating 5/7 to replace the HST's).

Having said that, if you did the same to the Virgin fleet as well (i.e. kept them as all 5 coach units after the insertion of a pantograph coach) there would have been enough coaches to form 14 x 9 coach units which would have given a reasonable amount of extra capacity, even if a few (either a few 9 coach or a few pairs of 5 coach units) increased capacity at Virgin.

Over the total fleet it would have been 91 new coaches vs 119, however that could have allowed the 222's to have been done as well for not that extra, assuming a fleet of
16 x 5 coach
11 x 9 coach
That would have required a total of 129 coaches for all the 22x's vs 119 just to do the 220/221 fleets.

 

[coppercapped]

Then there are other electric units off-lease, such as 365s. Manchester - Birmingham has been electrified for more than 50 years yet it has a 100% diesel service. Also there was a plan to add a pantograph car to the Voyagers - why was that scrapped?

I can answer your last question! Some years ago I attended an IMechE meeting when Bombardier presented details of 'Project Thor' including a series of detailed engineering drawings. Two proposals had been made:

• The first removed the diesel engine, fuel tank, radiators and exhaust system from one coach and replaced all of this with a transformer and power electronics and added a pantograph. So on diesel power a 4 coach train would have three diesel engines and a five coach train would have four.
• The other saw an additional coach being built which would hold the pantograph, transformer and power electronics which would then be inserted into the existing set. So on diesel power a five coach train would have four engines and a six coach train would have had five.

Bormbardier expended several thousand hour of engineering time on the project but on further examination the project came out much too expensive and the power-to-weight ratio under diesel power suffered considerably.

In all cases power cables would have to been installed to carry traction power from the transformer through to the other coaches and the tractional packs re-arranged - as designed the alternator and power inverter were close to each other so cable runs were short. There was little space left in the underframe to allow chunky power cables to be fitted from end to end so much underfloor equipment would have to have been rearranged. If a new coach body were to be buiIt that also raised issues: the originals were steel bodies made in Belgium but the line had been shut and the tooling dispersed or otherwise unavailable. So whether a steel or an aluminium body were to be built a redesign would have been necessary - for a short run of 78 bodies this would have been costly on a per coach basis.

It was also estimated that the time need for conversion would have been several months per set - and for efficient working three or four sets would have to have been taken out of service at the same time. The question then arose of which 125mph capable trains were available to back-fill the holes while the conversion programme was running - and at the time the answer was - none.

So the idea was dropped.

 

[Aictos]

Luxury compared to the Leicester side, which is frequently a 2 car 170

Indeed, it’s stupid that the Stansteds can and do turn up with 2 car Class 170s!

 

[sprinterguy]

I don't think this is entirely true as I thought Virgin operated a southbound Pendolino in the morning unless this no longer runs?

There is indeed, the 06:27 Manchester Piccadilly - London Euston, which forms the 08:10 departure from Birmingham New Street. There have been others over the past year or so when engineering works have closed Euston, with Pendolinos operating an hourly Birmingham International - Manchester service in the path of the Bournemouth - Manchester XC service: Having quiet 9 or 11 carriage electric trains on the route was pure bliss in place of the usual overcrowded 4 carriage diesels, and it's a pity that's not possible the rest of the time.