Cross Country's capacity issues: how could they be solved?

[cactustwirly]

Right. So. We're all in agreement. South Wales to Stansted needs to be 4 - Car minimum. If we're working off the same ratio, roughly, that means anything else needs to be between 7 and 9 coaches long. I say a mixed fleet of 7 and 5 car trainsets. Anyone else agree or disagree?

It's actually Birmingham to Stansted fast & Birmingham - Leicester stopper.
The problem is that both diagrams interwork, a 2 car is suitable for the the Leicester stopper, but not the fast Stansted train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Turbostar routes aren't terribly overcrowded to my knowledge.

They very much are. But as they are only short trains to begin with, adding only one coach per train would mostly solve it as that would be a 50% or 33% increase respectively. You'd only need a few more 2-car Turbostars to make the 3s into 4 (2x2) and the 2s into 3 and it'd be mostly fine.

 

[TheBigD]

On XC 170s...

2 car = 9 1st + 113 std
3 car = 9 1st + 193 std
2+2 car = 18 1st + 226 std

Going from a 2car to a 3car is a 70% increase in standard capacity, 3car to 2x2car is a 17% increase in standard capacity.

There's a few services currently booked for 4 car operation, but there's plenty more that need to be lengthened to 3 car or 4 car.

 

[Qwerty133]

It's actually Birmingham to Stansted fast & Birmingham - Leicester stopper.
The problem is that both diagrams interwork, a 2 car is suitable for the the Leicester stopper, but not the fast Stansted train.

I can only assume that you've never travelled on the stopped as the reality is that the stopper needs the capacity more than the fast at many points of the day. The service sees a very high level of turnover and no-one in reality considers the extra 5 minutes journey time when deciding which service to travel on.

 

[cactustwirly]

I can only assume that you've never travelled on the stopped as the reality is that the stopper needs the capacity more than the fast at many points of the day. The service sees a very high level of turnover and no-one in reality considers the extra 5 minutes journey time when deciding which service to travel on.

I have actually! But it's always seemed less busy than the express!

 

[Qwerty133]

I have actually! But it's always seemed less busy than the express!

The stopper would probably have sufficient capacity as 2 coaches during the middle of the day (11:18-13:18 from Leicester and 10:52-13:52 from New Street) and very late evening (after 9pm) but 2 coaches is far from sufficient during peak and on the first and last off peak trains. The 15:52 and 16:52 ex New Street are both backed up by an additional stopper at 16:09 and 17:09 and the 17:18 from Leicester can have people standing despite being 5 coaches. The level of demand is also probably reduced from Narborough by current ticketing restrictions that give less than 4 hours in Birmingham on an off peak ticket if wanting to be home before 19:30.

 

[43096]

The rolling stock, while unpopular, is adequate. The problem is that the trains, apart from the HSTs, do not have enough carriages.

So actually, what you are saying is that the stock is not adequate because there isn’t enough of it.

 

[53703]

There's a few services currently booked for 4 car operation, but there's plenty more that need to be lengthened to 3 car or 4 car.

That reminds me, yesterday the 1718 Leicester to New Street was formed of 5 coaches. Is that normal?

 

[TheBigD]

That reminds me, yesterday the 1718 Leicester to New Street was formed of 5 coaches. Is that normal?

Yes. Mon-Fri it's formed off the 1552 (3car) + 1609 (2car) ex New Street. It's a convenient way to get the 2 car unit back to Tyseley (then part of the 2222 Birmingham-Leicester) .

The train certainly doesn't justify 5 cars, 3 car would be suitable, though I'm sure some would still choose to stand so that they're at the front at South Wigston and Narborough.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Just to put a suggestion out there, what are the chances that when the WCML/Virgin franchise is re-let very soon, they require them to give up their Voyagers and make them procure Bi-Modes for the north Wales services, releasing them for XC or whoever takes over XC

 

[TheBigD]

The stopper would probably have sufficient capacity as 2 coaches during the middle of the day (11:18-13:18 from Leicester and 10:52-13:52 from New Street) and very late evening (after 9pm) but 2 coaches is far from sufficient during peak and on the first and last off peak trains. The 15:52 and 16:52 ex New Street are both backed up by an additional stopper at 16:09 and 17:09 and the 17:18 from Leicester can have people standing despite being 5 coaches. The level of demand is also probably reduced from Narborough by current ticketing restrictions that give less than 4 hours in Birmingham on an off peak ticket if wanting to be home before 19:30.

There's massive suppressed demand from Narborough and Hinckley. Only an hourly service to Leicester and Birmingham now compared to half hourly to Leicester and Nottingham, and hourly to Birmingham and Shrewsbury that it used to have until 2005 (?) when the Coventry-Nottingham was withdrawn and Nuneaton was remodelled removing the WCML connection. There's been a fair bit of housebuilding along that corridor in the last decade or so.

My personal veiw is that the line needs a half hourly stopper in addition to the express Stansted service but I don't see there being the paths along the Water Orton-Proof House-New Street corridor.

 

[Envoy]

As an emergency measure, why don’t they send the GWR HST’s that are going for scrap/storage to East Midlands Trains for services out of St.Pancras? This would release the Meridians (which are similar to Voyagers) for work with Cross Country. As East Midland Trains already operate HST’s, they will have the knowledge to keep them going. Alternatively, send the ex- GWR HST’s to XC.

 

[sprinterguy]

So when is XC franchise up for re-negotiation?

The competition for the next Crosscountry franchise should be underway at present, but it has been paused indefinitely while the DfT undertake their rail structure review. It is likely that a new direct award will be let by the DfT to tide the franchise over for another couple of years at least beyond the current late-2019 end date, and I believe preparatory work has already begun.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Not looking good this morning on JourneyCheck - 3 Voyager services cancelled! It's a bit concerning that one broke down the same day (at Leeds on the 15:08 Edinburgh to Plymouth service which was started from Birmingham New Street) as the one that caught fire at Brockenhurst!

I'm hoping there's not a Voyager reliability issue emerging.

 

[sprinterguy]

Just to put a suggestion out there, what are the chances that when the WCML/Virgin franchise is re-let very soon, they require them to give up their Voyagers and make them procure Bi-Modes for the north Wales services, releasing them for XC or whoever takes over XC

The chances are zero: There's nothing about replacing Voyagers stated in the Invitation to Tender for the West Coast Partnership franchise, which is the document that the bidders must specify their bids against. Rolling stock policy for "classic" WCML services will be specified by the winning bidder.

 

[chubs]

Right. So. We're all in agreement. South Wales to Stansted needs to be 4 - Car minimum.

The capacity is needed into Stansted, but I believe the XC platform cant take anything longer than a car 170? It sits there for ages too.

 

[sprinterguy]

The capacity is needed into Stansted, but I believe the XC platform cant take anything longer than a car 170? It sits there for ages too.

Platform length 106 metres, so maximum train formation length 4 x 23 metres or 5 x 20 metres.

 

[Spartacus]

As an emergency measure, why don’t they send the GWR HST’s that are going for scrap/storage to East Midlands Trains for services out of St.Pancras? This would release the Meridians (which are similar to Voyagers) for work with Cross Country. As East Midland Trains already operate HST’s, they will have the knowledge to keep them going. Alternatively, send the ex- GWR HST’s to XC.

It'd cause problems at St Pancras and on the MML in general as a fair few services go in on top of each other at St Pancras and some split and join en-route or at start or finish stations.

 

[dk1]

Just to put a suggestion out there, what are the chances that when the WCML/Virgin franchise is re-let very soon, they require them to give up their Voyagers and make them procure Bi-Modes for the north Wales services, releasing them for XC or whoever takes over XC

Trouble with procuring trains for the WCML until 2028 is that you have to figure in 'tilt' & I'm not sure that there is a BMU option available that does or is value for money until HS2 opens. If you don't then the N.Wales services will end up being decelerated south of Crewe.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Trouble with procuring trains for the WCML until 2028 is that you have to figure in 'tilt' & I'm not sure that there is a BMU option available that does or is value for money until HS2 opens. If you don't then the N.Wales services will end up being decelerated south of Crewe.

Assuming that didn't eat paths to too great an extent, I suspect you'd get buy-in for that (it'd only cost a few minutes on the running time) if you offered something else as a sop, e.g. hourly to Bangor.

 

[dk1]

The capacity is needed into Stansted, but I believe the XC platform cant take anything longer than a car 170? It sits there for ages too.

That's always been the problem & the inefficient way the only diesel platform is used has prevented other services serving the airport in the past.

 

[E_Reeves]

It'd be useful to get their hands on more Turbostars from either Scotrail/WMT/Greatern Anglia/Northern this would help provide extra carriages.
Theoretically how many carriages long can you make a Turbostar? It seems they are running as 2 car sets recently!

Not sure theoretically, but I've seen 3+2+2 on Birmingham-Stansted services before

 

[dk1]

It'd be useful to get their hands on more Turbostars from either Scotrail/WMT/Greatern Anglia/Northern this would help provide extra carriages.
Theoretically how many carriages long can you make a Turbostar? It seems they are running as 2 car sets recently!

GAs 12 examples are all spoken for as going to TfW later this year.

 

[chubs]

Not sure theoretically, but I've seen 3+2+2 on Birmingham-Stansted services before

Must have split before Stansted? Not sure where it could have fitted in otherwise.

 

[greyman42]

So actually, what you are saying is that the stock is not adequate because there isn’t enough of it.

If the Voyagers were doubled up they would be fine as they are very reliable. Another point is that they are in desperate need of refurbishment and hopefully this will be a requirement of the new franchise.

 

[Mark J]

Personally I believe that GWR should be allowed to run regular (fast) services to Banbury. That way people can change at Banbury for Chiltern services to Birmingham - I would certainly do this over the shambles that is Crosscountry's overcrowded service to Birmingham. At present from Oxford southwards, you have very little option but to use Crosscountry to the Midlands and beyond. Between Oxford and Banbury the current GWR service is slow (stopping at Tackley, Heyford and King's Sutton) and near useless, with trains running every 2/3 hours from Oxford.

 

[pt_mad]

Interestingly, I was watching a copy of Video 125's Cross City Drivers Eye View DVD this week. It was filmed sometime in the early to mid 90s I believe.

They show a scene from Birmingham New Street concourse, and the old departure boards can be seen. The non digital flip board type departure boards.

There is a service to Plymouth visible, and it appears to be first stop Bristol Parkway followed by Bristol T.M.

Did these not stop at Cheltenham in those days?

Also there's an Intercity Service to from Birmingham to Liverpol which looked to be stopping at Stafford, Crewe, Runcorn and Liverpool only. As opposed to the many stops today.

Did longer distance services through Birmingham N.S. have less stops in the whole in those days?

 

[The Ham]

Personally I believe that GWR should be allowed to run regular (fast) services to Banbury. That way people can change at Banbury for Chiltern services to Birmingham - I would certainly do this over the shambles that is Crosscountry's overcrowded service to Birmingham. At present from Oxford southwards, you have very little option but to use Crosscountry to the Midlands and beyond. Between Oxford and Banbury the current GWR service is slow (stopping at Tackley, Heyford and King's Sutton) and near useless, with trains running every 2/3 hours from Oxford.

I've always thought that getting GWR to Banbury would be a help with capacity on XC as there's not great connections with the XC services at Reading from some locations. Add in direct services from Slough and the like and you could find that a good number of people opt to avoid XC services.

However, with that XC would likely benefit longer term as journey opportunities would be better meaning more people are likely to be using the trains and so when they do have longer trains, although there would be a share to give to GWR, they would still likely end up with more money overall.

 

[Mark J]

I've always thought that getting GWR to Banbury would be a help with capacity on XC as there's not great connections with the XC services at Reading from some locations. Add in direct services from Slough and the like and you could find that a good number of people opt to avoid XC services.

However, with that XC would likely benefit longer term as journey opportunities would be better meaning more people are likely to be using the trains and so when they do have longer trains, although there would be a share to give to GWR, they would still likely end up with more money overall.

All Crosscountry services from Bournemouth via Reading travel through Oxford and Banbury. From there XC service either run through Coventry, or Warwick to Birmingham. At Banbury, Chiltern are the primary operator. Depending on the Chiltern train you catch, the service can be anywhere between three and fifteen minutes slower than using XC from Banbury. However the flip side is that Chiltern are usually far less overcrowded.

If GWR ran to Banbury it would allow people from Reading and Oxford to get to Banbury, then allow the use of either XC or Chiltern to Birmingham, and on-wards. Yes, Chiltern run to Moor Street, however this is a short walk from New St Station. If GWR was extended to Leamington Spa, even more options would exist through West Midlands Trains.

The only other option is for XC to invest in a class 802 fleet. The current situation won't be tolerated forever, especially when some passengers (including myself), do everything possible to avoid using XC.

 

[30907]

Interestingly, I was watching a copy of Video 125's Cross City Drivers Eye View DVD this week. It was filmed sometime in the early to mid 90s I believe.

They show a scene from Birmingham New Street concourse, and the old departure boards can be seen. The non digital flip board type departure boards.

There is a service to Plymouth visible, and it appears to be first stop Bristol Parkway followed by Bristol T.M.

Did these not stop at Cheltenham in those days?

Also there's an Intercity Service to from Birmingham to Liverpol which looked to be stopping at Stafford, Crewe, Runcorn and Liverpool only. As opposed to the many stops today.

Did longer distance services through Birmingham N.S. have less stops in the whole in those days?

There were a few trains that skipped a couple of stops, certainly, and Liverpool had a 2-hourly intercity to Birmingham which no longer runs. But the trend over the last 25 years has for more trains to stop at more stations, not just on XC.