Cross Country - Get Some Extra Carriges

[Failed Unit]

How could a better result have been possible though when limited to 4/5 car Voyagers.? I would have though anyone working at OPRAF would have seen that it was impossible and so not accepted the bid.

I don't think OPRAF are a good judge, how may first round franchises failed for various reasons?

Central Trains, Wales and Boarders, Valley Lines, North West Trains, West Coast, Connex (both).

 

[Yew]

Of course, If the DFT let roscos do as they where intended, and buy new trains, Then this might not be an issue

 

[Zoe]

I don't think OPRAF are a good judge, how may first round franchises failed for various reasons?

Good point, this is where the strict franchise specifications of the SRA and later the DfT can be seen as a good thing.

 

[tom1649]

What's the point in privatisation if the government's going to make all the decisions? Instead of having shareholders we could see 'surpluses' going back into the service/infrastructure. No?

 

[Zoe]

Of course, If the DFT let roscos do as they where intended, and buy new trains, Then this might not be an issue

A ROSCO is not going to buy new trains though unless it has a guarnatee that they will be leased throughout their life. With the current length of franchises you don't have this guarantee.

 

[Drsatan]

Thats how I remember it too.

The only downsides to this plan are:

1. Some of the use for the HSTs was on "new" routes like Blackpool or Gloucester-Swindon (e.g. wouldn't have helped the areas experiencing problems)
2. The HSTs were to be five coaches (not full length)
3. Since it didn't happen at least the HSTs have meant FGW have been able to run more services (which freed up the 180s which meant HT could give their 222s to EMT, so a few areas have benefited from the HST cascade away from XC)

(I wish it had happened as Virgin intended, but I don't believe for a minute it'd have solved everything)

Yes, Virgin XC wanted to comprehensively refurbish its HSTs and rename them 'Challengers' (not sure why Virgin wanted to shorten them to five coaches, probably so they could keep to Voyager timings or so Virgin would save money on track access charges), and use them on less well patronised services. This would have allowed Voyagers to be used on 'core services'


However, the SRA refused permission for Virgin to proceed with the Challenger program, and insisted that Virgin cut lots of destinations from its network (like Portsmouth, London Paddington and Blackpool). Having said that, cutting destinations from its network was the only way Virgin XC could free up enough Voyagers to allow certain SW-NE services to be 'doubled-up' to deal with greater than expected passenger numbers.However, therein lies the main problem with Operation Princess.


I accept it seemed like a good idea at the time for XC services to be run more frequently, but it wasn't a good idea for lots of short trains to be run instead of fewer, but longer trains. That's because it was discovered that passengers prefer to jump onto the first train that's going to their destination instead of waiting for the next departure if the first train is full. Not to mention that on a few routes (namely the Brighton Main Line), a regular interval service couldn't be run due to pathing problems.

 

[Zoe]

If longer Voyagers had been ordered though Operation Princess wouldn't have been possible in the planned form as they would have been too long to reverse in the bays at Reading.

 

[tbtc]

What's the point in privatisation if the government's going to make all the decisions?

At the moment the Government have got the best position possible.

They get to interfere/ meddle/ specify even minor details, yet whenever anything goes wrong they can blame private companies (because its not the Government's responsibility)...

Years ago, when there was a shoddy Government service, the responsibility ultimately went up to the Cabinet Minister concerned for that department (look at Home Secretaries being blamed for escaping prisoners, or Health Secretaries blamed for dirty hospitals). But now, its all done at arms length, meaning the Government can pass the blame to someone else when things go wrong.

Why would any Government (red or blue) want to change this?

 

[bluenoxid]

The other thing is that because it is run at arms length, the dodgy bits can be hidden in private contracts, which makes FoI so difficult.

 

[Masbroughlad]

Yet again the Glasgow Central - Penzance was once again to capacity by the time it had reached Leeds which then had the usual people trying to force the doors open and board the already crowded train as the conductor tried to close them.

I know this capacity issue is discussed on here often but can someone please tell Cross Country that we are not Cows and deserve better in 2011 than being forced to stand for unacceptable durations on their sardine services.

Rant over.

I agree - it is appalling.

They should be MADE to run relief trains. Hire stock in from Cargo-D, locos from DRS, DBS etc and put on the extras. So what if they are slower? At least people will get a seat and arrive relaxed - not like cattle heave-hoed into trucks.

 

[tbtc]

I agree - it is appalling.

They should be MADE to run relief trains. Hire stock in from Cargo-D, locos from DRS, DBS etc and put on the extras. So what if they are slower? At least people will get a seat and arrive relaxed - not like cattle heave-hoed into trucks.

With what paths?

 

[Zoe]

Virgin did consider sending luggage by road a few years back on summer services to the South West.

 

[ainsworth74]

With what paths?

Deleted - I need to start reading posts properly or go to bed.

 

[tom1649]

And what stock?

Presumably all the stock which was short-sightedly scrapped or in some cases exported.

 

[Zoe]

Presumably all the stock which was short-sightedly scrapped or in some cases exported.

The railways are a commercial business not a public service. It wouldn't be good business to have stock sitting around in sidings most of the time only to be used for relief trains.

 

[tom1649]

The railways are a commercial business not a public service. It wouldn't be good business to have stock sitting around in sidings most of the time only to be used for relief trains.

Well maybe they should be a public service not a business. All this 'capitalism is the only way' lark in this country now, even when it comes to public services and then they can't deliver the goods when it's needed.

It's not good business to have people crammed into trains.

Thank goodness other European countries have had the sense to retain public ownership of their railways or at the very least privatise them in a vaguely sensible way.

 

[thefab444]

The trouble is our system takes the worst parts of private sector business and the worst parts of public sector services and combines them into one unholy mess.

 

[Zoe]

It's not good business to have people crammed into trains.

Wouldn't you make more money by having everyone packed into a smaller train than running a larger train with empty seats?

 

[Blindtraveler]

q - how many spare Mk2S are kicking around, spare meaning unused at all, are they in good nick and is there locos available to haul them? The situation here is practicly handing customers to easyjet, flyb, megabus and the used car industry on a plate!

 

[Zoe]

The situation here is practicly handing customers to easyjet, flyb, megabus and the used car industry on a plate!

Don't forget National Express.

 

[tom1649]

Wouldn't you make more money by having everyone packed into a smaller train than running a larger train with empty seats?

I would but money isn't everything in this world. I'd rather see my passengers in a comfortable environment and make a few bob less, even as a business man. I would gain no job satisfaction from seeing my passengers crammed onto trains. What a pity some other people aren't so greedy and instead, a little more thoughtful.

 

[junglejames]

To be fair, XC was the Cinderalla of BR. I did use Virgin HSTs and 47s and Mark 2s and they were never full so the idea of running shorter trains but at double the frequency was likely sound at the time. It's just that people were not expecting the increase in demand after Opertion Princess in 2002.

My you were lucky. Out of all the times I travelled with Virgin XC pre Voyager days, the HSTs and 47s were nearly always full.
I once had the rear coach to myself (itself very very rare), but after i got off, i realised the rest of the train was full. Just nobody could be bothered to walk down to the rear coach.

Virgin ordered enough Voyagers to operate what? 75% extra services, on less routes? So thats half size trains, but not twice as many trains.
Now count the fact that Virgin expected all their improvements to yield extra passengers. So why not cater for extra passengers? They catered for less passengers, yet expected passenger numbers to increase.
Yes they werent purely to blame, but they did start the ball rolling. Operation Princess was a farce. A massive farce. So few a trains that the SRA (or whoever it was then) had to scrap some routes, just so the core routes had the same capacity as before.
Just like the voyagers themselves, the whole thing was not thought through by Virgin.

 

[Zoe]

So few a trains that the SRA (or whoever it was then) had to scrap some routes

The SRA could have allowed more coaches or even extra Voyagers to be ordered though back in 2002 but they didn't and even forced Virgin to give up their remaining HSTs.

 

[junglejames]

Yes i know the SRA were at fault as well, but Virgin started it. Together Virgin and the SRA showed us how not to run a railway

 

[IanXC]

A ROSCO is not going to buy new trains though unless it has a guarnatee that they will be leased throughout their life. With the current length of franchises you don't have this guarantee.

Sounds like time for a Yes Minister quote: "but if they weren't there, they wouldn't be there"!

If the Dft werent involved with stock choices then stock could be allocated on a purely commercial basis. I think that if ROSCOs had been left to arrange stock as they see fit we would have seen more stock renewal on (growth) regional franchises, more of a rolling programme.

I think the only way DfT should be involved is controlling the quality and standard of stock. If it were made clear to ROSCOs that the "worst" 5% of stock must be replaced each year, but the ROSCOs left to organise how this would happen and the resultant cascades, I think we'd be in a much better position today.

 

[Zoe]

If the Dft werent involved with stock choices then stock could be allocated on a purely commercial basis. I think that if ROSCOs had been left to arrange stock as they see fit we would have seen more stock renewal on (growth) regional franchises, more of a rolling programme.

How can a ROSCO be sure that stock they buy is going to be used though without the DfT giving this guarantee?

 

[sulli_os]

There is a point here - when Virgin were given the XC franchise and ordered the Voyagers they might not have anticipated demand, but the demand was certainly clear at the last franchise round. Why didn't DafT
i) specify in the franchise outline a requirement to provide proper, adequate rolling stock that meets said demand, and/or
ii) give the franchise to an operator that bid/agreed to it?

 

[Failed Unit]

The thing is as well that the extremes were always going to see a reduction, Penzance used to get HSTs now it can only have 5 car Voyagers. I understand that 2x 4 car voyagers has less seats than an HST so even Sheffield in reality has less seats per hour than before when princess was implemented. Oh to have a crystal ball in hindsight it was clear that the voyagers were too short. They were going to have 3rd class hence the number off accessible toilets. Not sure what that would have been 2+3? Never got off the ground.

Edinburgh - York you will always get a seat

 

[Zoe]

As I say though, Operation Princess wouldn't have worked as planned with 7 car Voyagers as they would have been too long to reverse in the bays at Reading.

 

[Failed Unit]

As I say though, Operation Princess wouldn't have worked as planned with 7 car Voyagers as they would have been too long to reverse in the bays at Reading.

Correct, but they don't always use the bays now. It is easy to say now but if the had all had 5 coaches that would have help (which was requested to the SRA).

How many coaches can the bays take?

In some cases at reading when services continued towards Brighton no reversal was needed.

Even now replace a 4 car DEMU with a 4 car EMU you have an increase in seating! Replace with a lot of 5 car EMUs you may have a solution.

Minor detail of course, no announcements in sight for the following schemes.

Bassingstoke - Reading
Oxford - Coventry
Birmingham - Bristol Parkway
Birmingham - York via Leeds and Doncaster

Then if it did happen would a 100mph EMU be good enough with the quicker start / stop times or would an IEP be needed.