Crewe versus Stoke - who will win?

[MarkyT]

Not that I'm necessarily saying it's a good idea, just that connecting it to the existing routes isn't as bad as it first appears.

I'd be a little worried about reversal being required on the South Wales - Manchester service. I wonder whether that could lead to them not stopping at a Basford HS2 hub, remembering, also more broadly in respect of these proposals that there's also a lot of freight activity at Crewe to weave around here.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'd be a little worried about reversal being required on the South Wales - Manchester service. I wonder whether that could lead to them not stopping at a Basford HS2 hub, remembering, also more broadly in respect of these proposals that there's also a lot of freight activity at Crewe to weave around here.

Wouldn't a reversal on such a service be a most retrograde step ?

 

[PerArdua500]

There is a proposal from Stoke Council to send HS2 via Stoke. I have tried to see detail about the plans, but only find political and newspaper chat. Anyone have better information on this scheme?

Stoke-on-Trent City Council's formal submission to the HS2 Phase 2 consultation can be found at www.stoke.gov.uk/hs2

Summary of the key points of the submission below.

In short: saves £5bn and versus the HS2 Consultation Route and sub 1:30 trains to Manchester 7 years earlier by the following:

HSL to north of Stone

New HSR station in Etruria Valley, linked into regeneration and economic development initiatives on a strategic scale. 85,000 new homes. 'Greater Stoke' becomes a very affordable new option for commuting from London (55 mins / 50 mins Old Oak Common). Plus Stoke sits at the heart of a Manchester – Midlands super-region with greater combined economic clout to act as counterweight to London/SE.

HSL to new station legislated and constructed as an integrally planned extension to Phase 1. (2026)

Gauge-cleared to full HS2 spec to Kidsgrove, to allow incremental build of 14 km 'Package 2' additional HSL running NW from Kidsgrove to rejoin Consultation Route and WCML NORTH of Crewe (thus avoiding cost and complexity of tunnels and sub-optimally southern junction for Liverpool trains to join WCML)

Upgraded NR route north of Kidsgrove to Manchester. Uses Hamburg – Berlin 230 km/h standards, with substantial capex allowances to address major issues (e.g. Harecastle Tunnels, Cheadle Hulme etc.). Route requires Classic Compatible units.

'Package 2' build out gives Liverpool, NW and Scotland timings comparable or better than HS2 2033 proposals.

In initial 'Package 1' condition in 2026, Stoke Route offers 11:23 Euston – OOC – Manchester Picc trip time (1:16 actual running time). Compares well with 1:40 running time offered under HS2 Phase 1 with classic compatible services to Manchester. Only around 5 mins slower than the 1:11 actual running time achievable with the HS2 Consultation Route. Incidentally 1:08 London - Manchester is claimed by HS2 for the Consultation Route, but appears unfeasible assuming 330 km/h service speed and 230 km/h restriction from Knutsford Triangle inbound to Picc.

 

[pablo]

Chester and North Wales? and Manchester has to settle for CCs?

 

[NotATrainspott]

The Stoke suggestions don't seem to take much, if any, consideration into the post-phase 2 network. Enforcing a 230km/h speed restriction on all trains heading further north, whether or not they would ever feasibly stop in Stoke, is simply untenable. Instead of offering suggestions which would improve the scheme as a whole, these seem to damage the whole scheme just to serve one particular, small location better. Focussing on Stoke becoming nothing more than a London commuter town doesn't help either as it damages the case that HS2 would help businesses move out of London to reduce its pull on the economy.

 

[MarkyT]

Wouldn't a reversal on such a service be a most retrograde step ?

Yes it would add journey time and performance risk. All local and regional services have much to gain from the HS2 hub situated at the existing station, which could lead to improvements in their frequency and quality. Make the interchange too complex with only some local trains going to the relocated hub however, some regionals bypassing it and awkward transit shuttles lengthening interchange times etc and the sum risks becoming less than its parts. I can't see the benefit in having a full captive capable through station at Crewe. Manchester captives won't call at Manchester airport as well as Crewe and if a dedicated line ever gets to Glasgow, I don't believe Crewe would be a likely calling point for captive Scottish trains from London, also trains between Scotland and North West would much more likely go to either Manchester or Liverpool where many more connections and much more business will be available. By becoming a classic compatible hub for the north west, where portions can split and join from a number of Lancastrian destinations including Liverpool, Crewe can gain a significantly better London service than it might deserve otherwise as a station in its own right.

 

[WatcherZero]

Bucks County Council has withdrawn its request for a station at Aylesbury, officially its because the proposal added value to the project and they dont want the project to be built at all. Unoficially its because all the neighbouring councils refused to support their submission for an extra station.

 

[HowardGWR]

Bucks County Council has withdrawn its request for a station at Aylesbury, officially its because the proposal added value to the project and they dont want the project to be built at all. Unoficially its because all the neighbouring councils refused to support their submission for an extra station.

I don't get the connection with Stoke on Trent vs Crewe:?? Interesting though.

 

[WatcherZero]

They were proposing an extra station too, thought the existing thread on extra stations was best place for the tidbit rather than starting a new thread.

 

[HowardGWR]

They were proposing an extra station too, thought the existing thread on extra stations was best place for the tidbit rather than starting a new thread.

Ah, I see. Yes I suppose one could look at it that way, although the Stoke one was proposed instead of Crewe as opposed to extra (a non-starter IMO).

 

[Snapper]

Stokes hopes are hopeless. The whole scheme has been badly handled & has alienated more people that it's attracted.

The coup de grace is expected to be delivered by Sir David Higgins in his Hs2 review later this month.

 

[TheGrew]

The thing I don't really get is why Stoke can't just accept CC trains coming off the Lichfield link (much like Stafford) and run the same stopping pattern as one of the current Manchester services. (Euston-Stoke-Macclesfield-Stockport-Piccadilly). You would probably shave ~10 minutes off the current timing.

 

[Philip Elliott]

The thing I don't really get is why Stoke can't just accept CC trains coming off the Lichfield link (much like Stafford) and run the same stopping pattern as one of the current Manchester services. (Euston-Stoke-Macclesfield-Stockport-Piccadilly). You would probably shave ~10 minutes off the current timing.

Because there aren't the paths for it...

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The thing I don't really get is why Stoke can't just accept CC trains coming off the Lichfield link (much like Stafford) and run the same stopping pattern as one of the current Manchester services. (Euston-Stoke-Macclesfield-Stockport-Piccadilly). You would probably shave ~10 minutes off the current timing.

Because the councillors and officers at Stokie Council like to get their names and faces in the paper, wanting to be seen to be doing something good, rather than the local press focusing on their woeful day to day delivery of regeneration and basic public services - the services that we voted them in to deliver / pay their very generous salaries to deliver.

Then there is a developer who happens to own a large development site adjacent to the WCML just north of Stoke Station (Shelton Steelworks) and has always been keen for a station to serve their site - be it a rail halt, an inter-city station and now, even better Stoke International! And not wanting to dig into its own pockets to pay for it, or indeed any other infrastructure works.

The reference to a new mega-city referred to by peradua500 above. I don't remember that featuring in any of Stoke Council's strategic / planning documents, or Staffordshire County Council's, or any of the surrounding districts. I am sure the residents in the greenbelt and surrounding towns are queueing up to have tens of thousands of houses built next door!:roll:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Stoke's hopes are hopeless. The whole scheme has been badly handled & has alienated more people that it's attracted. The coup de grace is expected to be delivered by Sir David Higgins in his Hs2 review later this month.

I tend to concur 100% with everything that you say in your posting.

 

[TheGrew]

Because there aren't the paths for it...

Why can't it use the existing path that will no doubt be wanted to provide better capacity on the lower wcml?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

[joeykins82]

As I understand there won't be spare paths on the southern end of HS2 once the phase 2 timetable is operational

 

[Chris125]

As I understand there won't be spare paths on the southern end of HS2 once the phase 2 timetable is operational

...though only when/if the Heathrow branch is built.

Chris

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

...though only when/if the Heathrow branch is built.

Is my geographical knowledge somewhat having a bad day, but is the mention of the Heathrow branch somewhat a tad removed in distance terms from a Crewe v Stoke debate ?

 

[northwichcat]

Have North West Tonight recently employed a rail enthusiast? This got mentioned today on North West Tonight following on from multiple TransPennine Express stories earlier in the week.

 

[edwin_m]

Is my geographical knowledge somewhat having a bad day, but is the mention of the Heathrow branch somewhat a tad removed in distance terms from a Crewe v Stoke debate ?

I think the point is that two of the planned 18 trains per hour on HS2 between Birmingham and London are reserved for Heathrow trains. If that branch isn't built then they might be available for other purposes - perhaps including one that runs via Stoke.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think the point is that two of the planned 18 trains per hour on HS2 between Birmingham and London are reserved for Heathrow trains. If that branch isn't built then they might be available for other purposes - perhaps including one that runs via Stoke.

As ever, I am indebted to you for your clarification.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I listened to the Radio 4 discussion earlier this morning on the possibility of bringing forward the time period for the new line and whilst Crewe was constantly mentioned, there was no mention whatsoever of Stoke-on-Trent in the same discussion.

 

[Altnabreac]

I listened to the Radio 4 discussion earlier this morning on the possibility of bringing forward the time period for the new line and whilst Crewe was constantly mentioned, there was no mention whatsoever of Stoke-on-Trent in the same discussion.

Indeed, With Crewe being fast tracked Stoke on Trent politicians need to stop proposing daft new schemes and start lobbying to retain the Lichfield connection which at least allows the possibility of Stoke - London services using HS2 in future.

If they're not careful Lichfield will get dropped and then they'll be completely isolated from the high speed network.

 

[YorkshireBear]

So Crewe won.....

 

[dysonsphere]

I live in Stoke and theres no way it could work. Part of route to Crewe is singlt track and there is no where to expand currant station, they even took the centre road out a few years ago.

 

[The Planner]

If they're not careful Lichfield will get dropped and then they'll be completely isolated from the high speed network.

Handsacre Junction coming out is pretty much a given if it goes to Crewe in phase 1.

 

[Altnabreac]

Handsacre Junction coming out is pretty much a given if it goes to Crewe in phase 1.

I'm not surprised. The Crewe hub graphic in the Higgins report showing enhanced links to Stoke seemed to imply that was the way things were heading.

Stoke should get lobbying now if they want any HS service...

 

[YorkshireBear]

I live in Stoke and theres no way it could work. Part of route to Crewe is singlt track and there is no where to expand currant station, they even took the centre road out a few years ago.

Single tracks can be doubled you know?

 

[WatcherZero]

Yeah but the Stoke Council proposal was build it to Stoke and then dont bother with any line further north to Manchester, just use existing lines and pocket the savings. That was one of the reasons it was regarded pretty much universally as crazy unrealistic.