Crewe - May 2019 Timetable Changes

[SeanM1997]

Starting a thread about timetable changes at Crewe during May 2019. The current changes mainly affect West Midlands Rail:
- 1 train per hour Liverpool Lime Street to Birmingham New Street will be extended to London Euston via Northampton
- 1 train per hour Liverpool Lime Street to Birmingham New Street will be extended to London Euston via Northampton. This will be shown as to Birmingham New Street on departure boards as it will attach onto the following service below.
- 1 train per hour Crewe to London Euston will no longer call at Alsager, Kidsgrove, Stoke-on-Trent or Stone, and instead go via Madeley between Crewe and Stafford
- NEW 1 train per hour between Crewe and London Euston via Stoke-on-Trent, Birmingham New Street and Northampton

In terms of platform use, from May 2019 the platform use will be:
- Platform 1 - Northern to Manchester Piccadilly (xx:18) and Liverpool Lime Street (xx:48)
- Platform 2 - Spare Capacity
- Platform 3 - East Midlands Trains to Derby via Stoke-on-Trent (xx:07)
- Platform 4 - West Midlands Rail to London Euston via Stoke-on-Trent (xx:01)
- Platform 5 - Virgin Trains to London Euston (xx:01 via Birmingham, xx:22 and xx:29), Virgin Trains to Manchester Piccadilly (xx:11) and West Midlands Rail to London Euston (xx:19 and xx:49)
- Platform 6 - Transport for Wales to Carmarthen (xx:08), Transport for Wales to Manchester Piccadilly (xx:30), Virgin Trains to Liverpool Lime Street (xx:43) and Virgin Trains to London Euston (xx:56)
- Platform 7 - West Midlands Rail to London Euston via Madeley (xx:32)
- Platform 8 - Transport for Wales to Shrewsbury (xx:20 2 hourly)
- Platform 9 - Spare Capacity
- Platform 10 - Transport for Wales to Chester (xx:23)
- Platform 11 - Virgin Trains to Edinburgh/Glasgow (xx:09), West Midlands Rail to Liverpool Lime Street (xx:33 and xx:57) and Virgin Trains to Chester (xx:49)
- Platform 12 - Spare Capacity

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...28/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt

 

[Deafdoggie]

Interesting (but sensible) the Derby and Euston have switched platforms 3 & 4. Also platform 8 pressed into use. I don't see the logic in the Chester using 10 instead of 9 & I wonder if it actually will, or if 9 will still be used.

 

[SeanM1997]

Interesting (but sensible) the Derby and Euston have switched platforms 3 & 4. Also platform 8 pressed into use. I don't see the logic in the Chester using 10 instead of 9 & I wonder if it actually will, or if 9 will still be used.

I think Platform 8 is only being used as a secondary choice, as the Crewe-London on Platform 7 is there for most of the time. There are also some services at Platform 2. Its a shame Platform 12 is not really used

 

[Kite159]

Interesting (but sensible) the Derby and Euston have switched platforms 3 & 4. Also platform 8 pressed into use. I don't see the logic in the Chester using 10 instead of 9 & I wonder if it actually will, or if 9 will still be used.

Must be some reason why TfW changed the Chester shuttle so it uses platform 10 instead of platform 9 at Crewe [I believe it changed in December].

 

[SeanM1997]

Must be some reason why TfW changed the Chester shuttle so it uses platform 10 instead of platform 9 at Crewe [I believe it changed in December].

It may have something to do with using Vivarail rolling stock (unlikely) or as Platform 9 can only be used for Chester line and Platform 10 for Warrington and Chester lines, it uses platform 10 for if theres a problem on the line it can be rerouted

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It may have something to do with using Vivarail rolling stock (unlikely) or as Platform 9 can only be used for Chester line and Platform 10 for Warrington and Chester lines, it uses platform 10 for if theres a problem on the line it can be rerouted

I've noticed TPE use these platforms for their class 68 training runs to Wavertree.
But it puts Chester passengers in the rain on P10 as there is no canopy.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I thought 9 and 10 joined into one before joining the mainline? I'll check later as I could be wrong. But 10 is a poor platform.

 

[headshot119]

I thought 9 and 10 joined into one before joining the mainline? I'll check later as I could be wrong. But 10 is a poor platform.

10 joins with the lines from 11, 12 and the through (Might not be called the through), you can then turn right to get onto the slow which crosses the track from 9, or you can continue onto the Chester lines.

9 can only get onto the Chester lines.

 

[Deafdoggie]

10 joins with the lines from 11, 12 and the through (Might not be called the through), you can then turn right to get onto the slow which crosses the track from 9, or you can continue onto the Chester lines.

9 can only get onto the Chester lines.

9 can also access the WCML http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K91720/2019/02/13/advanced

 

[headshot119]

9 can also access the WCML http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K91720/2019/02/13/advanced

I don't think it can, have a look at the linked photo of Crewe PSB. Platform 9 is where 1D55 is. The blue track circuit ahead of the platform is a diamond which only takes you to the Chester line.

https://photos.signalling.org/picture?/26714/category/3519-2016_september

 

[SeanM1997]

https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pd...t-trains-limited-25th-sa-application-form.pdf

Virgin Trains have submitted an application for 5 additional trains between Liverpool Lime Street and London Euston (both directions) a day from 10 June 2019.

Based on these timings, the services would call at Crewe at:
0942 London Euston
1009 Liverpool Lime Street
1109 Liverpool Lime Street
1142 London Euston
1309 Liverpool Lime Street
1342 London Euston
1509 Liverpool Lime Street
1542 London Euston
1609 Liverpool Lime Street
1742 London Euston

I would also predict these services would call at Platform 12 heading to Liverpool Lime Street and Platform 5 heading to London Euston

 

[Kite159]

10 joins with the lines from 11, 12 and the through (Might not be called the through), you can then turn right to get onto the slow which crosses the track from 9, or you can continue onto the Chester lines.

9 can only get onto the Chester lines.

Looks correct to what is shown on the Open Train Times map

http://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/crewe#T_CREWE

 

[R G NOW.]

Do members think that Crewe needs a complete rebuild? Like they did with Reading, another 500 million spent on it, with the platforms made all through ones.

 

[jfollows]

Do members think that Crewe needs a complete rebuild? Like they did with Reading, another 500 million spent on it, with the platforms made all through ones.

Actually, Crewe really could do with north-facing bay platforms accessible from the Manchester lines, if it were easier to do than new through lines, which it's not really other than by reinstating some of the complexity of Crewe North Junction to give access to platforms 9 & 10.

 

[Deafdoggie]

The two main problems at Crewe are the Manchester lines can't access any platform higher than 6, and the Chester lines can't access any platform lower than 6. But, as fixing that would mean both of them having to cross the whole WCML that really needs two flyovers to fix. And neither are that a major a problem really. The Manchester lines possibly more of an issue, as the Cardiff-Manchester trains do the cross over the WCML every hour already. The terminators use platform 1 without any real problem, as it is used for little else really.

 

[SeanM1997]

The two main problems at Crewe are the Manchester lines can't access any platform higher than 6, and the Chester lines can't access any platform lower than 6. But, as fixing that would mean both of them having to cross the whole WCML that really needs two flyovers to fix. And neither are that a major a problem really. The Manchester lines possibly more of an issue, as the Cardiff-Manchester trains do the cross over the WCML every hour already. The terminators use platform 1 without any real problem, as it is used for little else really.

In the HS2 Phase 2b Environment Statement Non Technical Summary announced a few days ago, its stated the creation of a new Platform 13 on the independent lines to the west of the station which will be used for Cardiff-Manchester and Manchester-Cardiff services, meaning services will not cross the WCML. This will help with the complexity of the station.

I don't think there is a solution for the Chester services, but as one terminates and one crosses WCML, I don't think its too much of a problem.

I do agree a Northern terminus is needed, but an alternative would be extending the Manchester-Crewe Northern services to Stoke-on-Trent (at least 1 of them) as proposed by Transport for the North, which would help to resolve platform congestion.

 

[Puffing Devil]

https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pd...t-trains-limited-25th-sa-application-form.pdf

Virgin Trains have submitted an application for 5 additional trains between Liverpool Lime Street and London Euston (both directions) a day from 10 June 2019.

Based on these timings, the services would call at Crewe at:
0942 London Euston
1009 Liverpool Lime Street
1109 Liverpool Lime Street
1142 London Euston
1309 Liverpool Lime Street
1342 London Euston
1509 Liverpool Lime Street
1542 London Euston
1609 Liverpool Lime Street
1742 London Euston

I would also predict these services would call at Platform 12 heading to Liverpool Lime Street and Platform 5 heading to London Euston

Already discussed here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ime-street-services-from-10-june-2019.178077/

 

[atillathehunn]

Starting a thread about timetable changes at Crewe during May 2019. The current changes mainly affect West Midlands Rail:
- 1 train per hour Liverpool Lime Street to Birmingham New Street will be extended to London Euston via Northampton
- 1 train per hour Liverpool Lime Street to Birmingham New Street will be extended to London Euston via Northampton. This will be shown as to Birmingham New Street on departure boards as it will attach onto the following service below.
- 1 train per hour Crewe to London Euston will no longer call at Alsager, Kidsgrove, Stoke-on-Trent or Stone, and instead go via Madeley between Crewe and Stafford
- NEW 1 train per hour between Crewe and London Euston via Stoke-on-Trent, Birmingham New Street and Northampton

In terms of platform use, from May 2019 the platform use will be:
- Platform 1 - Northern to Manchester Piccadilly (xx:18) and Liverpool Lime Street (xx:48)
- Platform 2 - Spare Capacity
- Platform 3 - East Midlands Trains to Derby via Stoke-on-Trent (xx:07)
- Platform 4 - West Midlands Rail to London Euston via Stoke-on-Trent (xx:01)
- Platform 5 - Virgin Trains to London Euston (xx:01 via Birmingham, xx:22 and xx:29), Virgin Trains to Manchester Piccadilly (xx:11) and West Midlands Rail to London Euston (xx:19 and xx:49)
- Platform 6 - Transport for Wales to Carmarthen (xx:08), Transport for Wales to Manchester Piccadilly (xx:30), Virgin Trains to Liverpool Lime Street (xx:43) and Virgin Trains to London Euston (xx:56)
- Platform 7 - West Midlands Rail to London Euston via Madeley (xx:32)
- Platform 8 - Transport for Wales to Shrewsbury (xx:20 2 hourly)
- Platform 9 - Spare Capacity
- Platform 10 - Transport for Wales to Chester (xx:23)
- Platform 11 - Virgin Trains to Edinburgh/Glasgow (xx:09), West Midlands Rail to Liverpool Lime Street (xx:33 and xx:57) and Virgin Trains to Chester (xx:49)
- Platform 12 - Spare Capacity

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...28/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt

Thanks for this very comprehensive run down. I am very out of the loop on these LNWR change. What is happening to the Liverpool - Brum services? There are usually two per hour, and now it seems both are getting extended to London?? What is the stopping pattern north of Crewe?

 

[sd0733]

I was told the reason for the bay changes was due to concerns about passenger flows and arriving/departing trains
For example when a train from Chester arrived on 9 and a train was coming into/out of 6 it was a risk with the passengers.
Also when a train from Derby arrived the xx01 to Euston was departing and caused dangers. To be safer with that tho it would make more sense to use 2 and 3.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I was told the reason for the bay changes was due to concerns about passenger flows and arriving/departing trains
For example when a train from Chester arrived on 9 and a train was coming into/out of 6 it was a risk with the passengers.
Also when a train from Derby arrived the xx01 to Euston was departing and caused dangers. To be safer with that tho it would make more sense to use 2 and 3.

I can see the sense of that, I guess the actual danger is small, but it is more passengers blocking the view of dispatch when they alight, thus creating a danger! The LNR service doesn't arrive in 4 at the same time as a 5 departure, but it may in times of delays, which is why I don't think the danger can be that great. But they do have 2 sitting empty, if a little further for people to walk. 10 is a shocking platform from a passenger viewpoint. 12 would be better!

 

[Statto]

The Pendolino Euston-Manchester goes from P5 as i don't think they can't fit on P6[11 car won't fit] with the crossover points 3 quarters down the platform.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This platform safety thing is at a higher level of sophistry than I thought the railway was capable of!
The P6/9 platform at Crewe is very wide and has been used for years with the Chesters in P9.
I can't see any safety issues there.

While we are on platform safety, there's a new Red zone at Manchester Piccadilly P13/14, roughly covering the space that used to contain the waiting rooms.
I got told off recently for NOT staying inside the Red zone (waiting for a train on P14, I wandered off towards P13, outside the Red zone but still inside the Yellow line).
This seems to be extreme crowd management, where they want you to stay in the "lounge" upstairs until the new screens tell you to go to the platform, and then stay inside the Red zone until your train actually shows up.
It's becoming as user unfriendly as Blackpool North, and that's saying something.

 

[Deafdoggie]

The Pendolino Euston-Manchester goes from P5 as i don't think they can't fit on P6[11 car won't fit] with the crossover points 3 quarters down the platform.

It could go from 1 if an issue. You can get a double voyager in 6 south of the crossover, so a 9 390 is no issue, not sure about an 11 coach. But 6 isn't a handy platform for Manchester trains, as they have to cross all 4 WCML tracks to get to Manchester lines.

 

[Senex]

Crewe 6 is given as 313 metres for trains towards Manchester (whilst Crewe 5 is only 256 metres for down trains). How long are Pendolino vehicles? If they are 23 metres, then an 11-car unit will only be 253 metres. I've always assumed that the use of 5 was to get the trains across the layout on arrival into the station if possible.

 

[ag51ruk]

An 11-car Pendolino for Manchester will fit comfortably on platform 6 (the 07.10 does that every day, and other trains are occasionally put there if there are delays)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

An 11-car Pendolino for Manchester will fit comfortably on platform 6 (the 07.10 does that every day, and other trains are occasionally put there if there are delays)

When the VHF timetable started, the Euston-Manchester was normally put in 6 and the conflicting southbound ATW Manchester-Cardiff in 5.
After a while (a timetable year I think), the penny dropped and they swapped these two.
Works well.

 

[craigybagel]

I was told the reason for the bay changes was due to concerns about passenger flows and arriving/departing trains
For example when a train from Chester arrived on 9 and a train was coming into/out of 6 it was a risk with the passengers.
Also when a train from Derby arrived the xx01 to Euston was departing and caused dangers. To be safer with that tho it would make more sense to use 2 and 3.

Interesting. I'd been wondering myself what the reason was.

This platform safety thing is at a higher level of sophistry than I thought the railway was capable of!
The P6/9 platform at Crewe is very wide and has been used for years with the Chesters in P9.
I can't see any safety issues there.

I can. When thy Chester shuttle used to arrive into 9, it was at the same time as the LNWR Birmingham service arrived on 6. I've seen plenty of near misses as all the passengers off the Chester make their way down 6 towards the stairs/exits, often going close to or over the yellow line as there's usually a crowd coming the other way to board the Chester (which only has a 5 minute turnaround).

An 11-car Pendolino for Manchester will fit comfortably on platform 6 (the 07.10 does that every day, and other trains are occasionally put there if there are delays)

Indeed, as does the Liverpool service every hour, often an 11 car. The only service at Crewe that normally needs the full length of Platform 6 is the sleeper.

 

[BluePenguin]

It's all well and good extending everything across Birmingham but it is very slow! I know these are meant to be regional services but still as Jax Jones says "Time is money so don't fxxk with mine".

On another note, a problem I was hoping that would be resolved still exists. To avoid Virgin's eye watering prices, the North Western only ticket to Birmingham and Liverpool are very attractive, especially if travelling at short notice.

Looking up the itineraries to use this ticket the results to Liverpool are not great:
Many journey planners suggest getting the xx:46 from Euston and changing at Stafford at 00:35. The connecting service to Liverpool that comes from Birmingham also arrives at xx:35 so there is a 35 minute wait at Stafford for the 00:10. Some people might enjoy the fresh air and the leg stretch after being sat down on the train for ages. Although it is not great nor appealing to someone in winter to wait for half an hour in the cold and possibly wet. In total the journey is roughly 3 hours and 24 minutes.

I had hoped that the Euston train running direct between Stafford and Crewe would fix the situation but that doesn't seem to be the case. Looking at Real Time Trains, the service to Liverpool frequently leaves Stafford late which I presume to be because of people holding the doors open or the guard waiting for the last few to sprint their last few metres to the train

I complained about this issue once or twice and it looks like there has been some, although probably coincidental change. In the new May timetable I have noticed that the connecting train will arrive into Stafford at xx:38 allowing 3 minutes to dash over to the connecting train to Liverpool. In some cases making the change at Crewe is possible as the Euston service arrives at xx:55 and the Liverpool at xx:57 although two minutes is realistically not long enough. Some of my friends have done this and call the change "The Stafford Shuffle"

There is one train per day that makes the journey possible under 3 hours. For some reason the 11:46 from Euston gets to Stafford at 13:30. This extra 5 minutes allows plenty of time for 13:38 connection to be made, bringing down the journey time to 2 hours and 45 minutes. Why can't the rest of the timetable be like this I wonder?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It's all well and good extending everything across Birmingham but it is very slow! I know these are meant to be regional services but still as Jax Jones says "Time is money so don't fxxk with mine".

On another note, a problem I was hoping that would be resolved still exists. To avoid Virgin's eye watering prices, the North Western only ticket to Birmingham and Liverpool are very attractive, especially if travelling at short notice.

Looking up the itineraries to use this ticket the results to Liverpool are not great:
Many journey planners suggest getting the xx:46 from Euston and changing at Stafford at 00:35. The connecting service to Liverpool that comes from Birmingham also arrives at xx:35 so there is a 35 minute wait at Stafford for the 00:10. Some people might enjoy the fresh air and the leg stretch after being sat down on the train for ages. Although it is not great nor appealing to someone in winter to wait for half an hour in the cold and possibly wet. In total the journey is roughly 3 hours and 24 minutes.

I had hoped that the Euston train running direct between Stafford and Crewe would fix the situation but that doesn't seem to be the case. Looking at Real Time Trains, the service to Liverpool frequently leaves Stafford late which I presume to be because of people holding the doors open or the guard waiting for the last few to sprint their last few metres to the train

I complained about this issue once or twice and it looks like there has been some, although probably coincidental change. In the new May timetable I have noticed that the connecting train will arrive into Stafford at xx:38 allowing 3 minutes to dash over to the connecting train to Liverpool. In some cases making the change at Crewe is possible as the Euston service arrives at xx:55 and the Liverpool at xx:57 although two minutes is realistically not long enough. Some of my friends have done this and call the change "The Stafford Shuffle"

There is one train per day that makes the journey possible under 3 hours. For some reason the 11:46 from Euston gets to Stafford at 13:30. This extra 5 minutes allows plenty of time for 13:38 connection to be made, bringing down the journey time to 2 hours and 45 minutes. Why can't the rest of the timetable be like this I wonder?

The joined-up services are not primarily there for through journeys - it's more to eliminate turnbacks at New Street, where platform capacity is often limited, due to the service frequencies being much higher nowadays than what it was built in mind for.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

On another note, a problem I was hoping that would be resolved still exists. To avoid Virgin's eye watering prices, the North Western only ticket to Birmingham and Liverpool are very attractive, especially if travelling at short notice.

What eye-watering prices?
If you are starting from Crewe or Stafford, fares to Liverpool and Birmingham are actually cheaper on VT than they are on LM (who set the Any Permitted fares).
It's simply not true that LNW are always "cheap" and VT is always "eye-watering".
They both know how to play the market.