Crewe Hub

[CdBrux]

Cheshire East council have made a proposal for an integrated Crewe HS2 hub and relocated classic line station, suggesting a location to the south of the existing station and using that as the catalyst to redevelop the existing site and open up a lot of land around the new station for business led development with some housing. It was also, they say, deal with some existing bottlenecks and also a baseline of £130m of remedial work which wil be needed anyway in the coming years. Indeed they do say the new station is not dependant on HS2 although I would think it unlikely that they would push hard for it is HS2 was not being considered!


http://www.cheshireeast.gov.uk/PDF/Cheshire-East-High-Growth-Region_Accessible.pdf

The Executive summary:

This evidence-based report provides a compelling vision for Crewe, the wider sub-region and for HS2. It has been
prepared by Sir Terry Farrell and his team, who have unique experience of high speed rail in Asia, and who have
also similarly advised on the HS2 Old Oak Common Interchange, together with a team of expert consultants.
The vision clearly proves how an HS2 Superhub at Crewe would act as a major catalyst for local, sub
regional and regional regeneration and economic growth, by maximising the advantage of Crewe’s unrivalled
connectivity.
This proposal is supported by the Cheshire & Warrington LEP, and also by the Cheshire & Warrington Local
Transport Body.
Our key messages are:
• We are an already successful economy – an excellent base for growth
• Delivers on Government’s transport and economic policies, including a potential boost to the UK economy
of £3bn.
• Adds very significant GVA, jobs and transport benefits to the case for HS2 and provides the opportunity for
simpler and cheaper HS2 rail infrastructure in and around Crewe
• Crewe’s unique transport benefits:
- Provides 360 degree rail connectivity for the HS2 network – Crewe is the hub point for the North West’s
rail network
- Provides a station accessible to potential 4.9 million passengers by all modes of transport
- Positive business and transport case for a new station at Crewe established by Network Rail, enabling a
HS2 Superhub
The growth story:
At Crewe and across the region, a new Network Rail station by 2020, and HS2 connectivity by 2026 could deliver
a boost to the region and UK economy of up to £3bn GVA and between 40,000 to 60,000 jobs.

I could find no mention of impact on costs of all this.

 

[Aivilo]

That location will probably be basford hall

 

[The Planner]

It will be wherever it is cheapest to build it. Rebuilding Crewe is not a new thing, been looked at and attempted for years.

 

[Camden]

I think if HS2 is built though that this will happen, is the difference.

 

[The Planner]

No choice if HS2 is accelerated to Crewe, it has to be done then. What is there now wont work.

 

[gordonthemoron]

hopefully this will alleviate the congestion on Nantwich Road. However, the tram plan doesn't go that close to the town centre (which is largely shut after 6)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why's it considered a good idea by the Council to move the station away from the town centre?

 

[The Planner]

Presumably opens up the areas south of Crewe around the A500 up for development and that brings the £££ in.

 

[Camden]

Because they think that a HS2 hub station will be a catalyst for investment on a vast scale.

I suppose there is a missing answer to a missing question of course: "Why, when Crewe is already an incredibly well connected hub station, is the existing town centre in its present state?"

Personally i think it might get them an office park of some description, but other than that why would it be used any differently than present day (with people simply changing trains there).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Why's it considered a good idea by the Council to move the station away from the town centre?

Looking at the matter of transport interchange, why is the bus station situated where it is?

 

[MarkyT]

For those interchanging between rail services, it doesn't matter much whether the station is in town or not, but it's clear the person who lives in Crewe and walks or takes the bus to the station today to catch a local train to Manchester (say), doesn't matter to the developers, or the council so it seems. They can just allow another 20 to 30 minutes journey time to change to some local so called 'rapid transit' for which no doubt they will have to pay an extra fare, to travel out of town in the wrong direction before being able to catch the train. Result: a doubled journey time for some local journeys. Trains from South Wales and Shrewsbury can currently call at Crewe without changing direction. The hub proposal will require a reversal leading to extended journey times and a need for more platforms at the hub as well as the risk that a TOC on that route my decide not to take the hit and avoid stopping at Crewe altogether (and the report suggests the existing station is 'oversized'!!!).

I have a better idea. Much of the traffic congestion relief for the existing station site could be solved by building a new access road alongside the railway tracks through the yards from the south. The access road could still become a development spine and have a rapid transit link along it to connect the new southern development areas to the existing station site. A sunken HS2 station box could be constructed alongside the existing station on the site of the freight avoiding lines to the west. Classic compatible Liverpool/Warrington trains would still branch off south of that to call and split as necessary in the classic platforms (modernised). Freight would have to be diverted through the classic station layout but these will be less busy once most expresses are replaced by HS2 (freights would have to vacate the bypass lines before construction of the HS2 station box clearly).

The development dog is definitely trying to wag the transport and urban planning dog here. The idea appears to be to create a new high rise city south of the old town here. I'm naturally suspicious of it all and expect, like the station itself, the surrounding developments will be all be a sinister privatised pseudo-public realm like Canary Wharf where you can be ejected by security if you don't fit in. Don't expect to be able to take any spotting photographs anywhere around the new Crewe!

 

[6Gman]

Why's it considered a good idea by the Council to move the station away from the town centre?

Because nobody at the top end of the Council (councillors or officers) has any real connection with, or knowledge of, Crewe.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Looking at the matter of transport interchange, why is the bus station situated where it is?

Because it's in the town centre?

The main users of buses (in Crewe at least) are shoppers and - to a lesser extent - local workers.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its the county council that's supporting the new out of town interchange, as far as I know the Town council is still opposing moving any services away from the existing station.

 

[HowardGWR]

Is it not the case that by putting the station adjacent to the southern link road A5000 /A500 you diffuse the objections from the Potteries (call the station Crewestoke?). I lived south of Crewe for some years and I can't think it matters much where you put the main station, as far as the locals are concerned. It reminds me a bit of the HS2 arguments about Toton and Meadowhall. Perhaps there is a case for having additional stations for local services on the northern fringes of the present junction lines to Chester, Warrington and Manchester. See where the housing developments around Crewe are.

 

[Camden]

While there might be some tinkering, I think it is pretty much commonly accepted now that the Crewe HS2 hub will be happening and happening as prescribed.

It does two main things. One, it shuts down stoke on trent's complaints definitively. Two, it helps give the impression that HS2 is about serving the north west (even though a number of people I have spoken to call Crewe a north midlands town, and even though HS2 in the north west has been utterly and totally dominated by one city and one city only).

A fudge of an idea, which itself only tinkers around the edges of a problem and in turn creates a load of headaches, taken forward by HS2 and paid for with all our money. How unusual...

 

[MarkyT]

It seems likely that 'only' classic compatibles will call at Crewe (as if these are somehow a less desirable type of train from the passenger's perspective) so there's no need to have a brand new fully UIC compatible station just for these. The existing station could be fairly easily be used with a pair of long platforms dedicated to these trains where they could call and split into separate Liverpool/ Warrington portions as necessary. The existing platforms might even be adapted to UIC clearances to be used as a terminal for UIC 'captive' rolling stock, but clearly those trains wouldn't be able to proceed north thereof through the classic junction back on to the HS tracks. I don't see much need for Manchester captive trains to call at Crewe anyway. Manchester trains are much more likely to call at the new station near the airport so would be very unlikely to call at Crewe as well. A new road into the old station site could be constructed from the south through the rail yards to relieve local traffic and car journeys would likely only take a few minutes longer from the Stoke direction than accessing a new southern hub. All the growth potential being touted is for the massive development proposed around the new station location which would form the the centrepiece and catalyst for it. The existing Crewe station is clearly not right in the town centre but is a feasible walk from it and on a major road which has very good access from most parts of the town and along which a large number of bus routes ply.

 

[Camden]

It seems likely that 'only' classic compatibles will call at Crewe

Quoting from the old hymn sheet not the new one. As I say it seems commonly accepted that Crewe HS2 hub will be happening regardless of whether anyone here thinks a new station is necessary or not.

My understanding is that at least some Manchester HS2 trains will be stopping at Crewe, and when you think of the stick that HS2 has been given for its obsessive service to and only to Manchester (yes yes classic compatible blah blah) it makes perfect sense as to why they'd lap this plan up.

 

[NotATrainspott]

It seems likely that 'only' classic compatibles will call at Crewe (as if these are somehow a less desirable type of train from the passenger's perspective) so there's no need to have a brand new fully UIC compatible station just for these. The existing station could be fairly easily be used with a pair of long platforms dedicated to these trains where they could call and split into separate Liverpool/ Warrington portions as necessary. The existing platforms might even be adapted to UIC clearances to be used as a terminal for UIC 'captive' rolling stock, but clearly those trains wouldn't be able to proceed north thereof through the classic junction back on to the HS tracks. I don't see much need for Manchester captive trains to call at Crewe anyway. Manchester trains are much more likely to call at the new station near the airport so would be very unlikely to call at Crewe as well. A new road into the old station site could be constructed from the south through the rail yards to relieve local traffic and car journeys would likely only take a few minutes longer from the Stoke direction than accessing a new southern hub. All the growth potential being touted is for the massive development proposed around the new station location which would form the the centrepiece and catalyst for it. The existing Crewe station is clearly not right in the town centre but is a feasible walk from it and on a major road which has very good access from most parts of the town and along which a large number of bus routes ply.

There would be little point building new platforms that weren't 400m long since Crewe would be an ideal place to split and join two separate 200m classic-compatibles which would then run to separate destinations in the North West. For example, the classic-compatible service to Preston calling at Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay and Wigan North Western could join up with another train coming from the Chester direction.

Building the station down at Basford should quite considerably reduce the cost and complexity of allowing HS2 trains to call at Crewe before continuing on the HS2 tracks to their final destination. The plans put out for consultation back in 2013 have the mainline start to descend down into the tunnel approximately a few hundred metres before the A500 bridge. This descent is only a 1.75% grade, suitable for 400km/h running, so it should be possible to design a station where the HS2 platform islands either side of the mainline have a connecting line that meets back up with the mainline before it reaches the tunnel portal, approximately where the Nantwich line crosses over the freight tracks.

One of the benefits of moving the classic station down to this new Basford Hall location is that it then would provide much more space to have faster and more efficient junction designs between the various directions of travel. For instance, the junction to the Manchester line is very slow and constrained because of how little distance there is between the northern end of the station platforms and the southern end of the junction. If rebuilt, the Manchester lines could be separated out through whatever means well before the junction so that the speed limitation would just be due to the achievable curve radius rather than turnout speed. Moving the connection points of the Nantwich and Stoke lines wouldn't really be that complicated when you remember that HS2 is building several hundred kilometres of brand new high speed railway. These lines would only need to be a few kilometres long over relatively flat terrain, and it's not as if doing something like that is truly that excessive for the railway network. The Norton Bridge works involve building several kilometres of brand new railway to approximately the same standard as the new connecting lines that would be required and no one seems to really notice nor care.

The existing Crewe station could be rebuilt to be significantly smaller and only served by local trains, which would all also run to the Crewe Hub station as well, or it could be dispensed with completely and replaced by a light rail network which could then actually be more convenient than the current station for locals. With an HS2/classic rail interchange hub at Basford Hall providing fast and frequent connections to almost everywhere that someone might ever need to go to, the site could well be suitable for a massive expansion of housing and businesses. It could be the Milton Keynes to Crewe's Bletchley.

 

[The Planner]

Wouldn't take much notice of what has gone before to be honest from the people I have spoke to. A lot of it seems still up for grabs.

 

[6Gman]

Its the county council that's supporting the new out of town interchange, as far as I know the Town council is still opposing moving any services away from the existing station.

Just to clarify this:

Cheshire East Borough Council (which is the unitary council providing virtually all local services) is very strongly supportive of relocation.

Crewe Town Council (which has the same basic status as a Parish Council) seems ambivalent - but its views count for very, very little.

It's Cheshire East which matters.

(There is no "county" council)

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is it not the case that by putting the station adjacent to the southern link road A5000 /A500 you diffuse the objections from the Potteries (call the station Crewestoke?). I lived south of Crewe for some years and I can't think it matters much where you put the main station, as far as the locals are concerned. It reminds me a bit of the HS2 arguments about Toton and Meadowhall. Perhaps there is a case for having additional stations for local services on the northern fringes of the present junction lines to Chester, Warrington and Manchester. See where the housing developments around Crewe are.

When relocation was proposed some years ago NR carried out a survey of how people reached the station. The %age who walked/cycled was surprisingly high (I cannot remember the exact figure). When I pointed this out at the public consultation I was told that NR thought the figures were wrong and that they would resurvey (presumably until they got the results they wanted ).

The current station, being located on the A534, also has good bus connections - the 37/38 toward Sandbach, Middlewich, Congleton etc; the 20 toward Alsager and the Potteries; the 85 toward Betley, Keele and Newcastle. All of this would be lost.

 

[MarkyT]

There would be little point building new platforms that weren't 400m long since Crewe would be an ideal place to split and join two separate 200m classic-compatibles which would then run to separate destinations in the North West.

Agree with that completely. That would be a good way to get a half hourly Liverpool service, pairing each train with a portion to another NW destination whilst making maximum use of the HS paths. Interesting that platform 12 at the existing station is 400m long today, and a reinstated back face of the same island could be the same length.

Building the station down at Basford should quite considerably reduce the cost and complexity of allowing HS2 trains to call at Crewe before continuing on the HS2 tracks to their final destination.

Before any GC route to Scotland gets built the only captive sets going north of Crewe will be for Manchester. Is a call at Crewe worth the construction costs of a complete new station? Without a new station classic compatibles for Glasgow/Edinburgh could call at Crewe but then the would be trapped on the classic network north thereof so couldn't make use of the spur to Wigan from the Manchester branch delta junction (dropping of which could be another possible economy at the cost of journey time for a non stop clearly).

One of the benefits of moving the classic station down to this new Basford Hall location is that it then would provide much more space to have faster and more efficient junction designs between the various directions of travel. For instance, the junction to the Manchester line is very slow and constrained because of how little distance there is between the northern end of the station platforms and the southern end of the junction. If rebuilt, the Manchester lines could be separated out through whatever means well before the junction so that the speed limitation would just be due to the achievable curve radius rather than turnout speed.

The Manchester curve looks to be around 300m radius, a significant restriction in itself. I don't think the junction points make this any worse.

Moving the connection points of the Nantwich and Stoke lines wouldn't really be that complicated when you remember that HS2 is building several hundred kilometres of brand new high speed railway. These lines would only need to be a few kilometres long over relatively flat terrain.

If the Basford hub went ahead I'd definitely be in favour of diverting both lines to serve it, the Nantwich line in particular to join at the south end and avoid a time and platform- consuming reversal on the Manchester-Shrewsbury axis. With all services starting or terminating at Crewe, the Kidsgrove line could conceivable enter the new hub from the north via a short new chord line over open ground, but then those trains couldn't also serve the old station site (if it remained) without a reversal.

The existing Crewe station could be rebuilt to be significantly smaller and only served by local trains, which would all also run to the Crewe Hub station as well, or it could be dispensed with completely and replaced by a light rail network which could then actually be more convenient than the current station for locals.

But not very convenient for locals commuting out of Crewe to other towns and cities on the lines radiating from this major junction. They'd now be forced to take an additional journey leg to the new hub, possibly going in the wrong direction and possibly having to buy an additional ticket, before going anywhere, and perhaps costing them an extra 20 miutes or so in each direction. I think retaining a local station and ensuring as many local services as possible could continue to serve it in addition to the new hub will be essential politically. Assuming a hub is built, it is not reasonable to assume that a new high rise megacity will immediately spring up in it's entirety around it. That process may take half a century before the land is fully developed. Once the new centre is there, then local bus networks etc can be comprehensively and economically reengineered to serve the local commercial activities AND the new station along with the older parts of town, but in the meantime the old town and its bus services will will remain largely focused on the old centre and the old station areas. That could make access to the new hub quite difficult for anyone without a car, and the traffic reduction from out of town travellers no longer needing to enter the centre could be offset by current rail users finding the new arrangements rather less convenient and making far more car journeys either to reach the new station or replacing existing local rail journeys entirely.

With an HS2/classic rail interchange hub at Basford Hall providing fast and frequent connections to almost everywhere that someone might ever need to go to, the site could well be suitable for a massive expansion of housing and businesses. It could be the Milton Keynes to Crewe's Bletchley.

I agree from a railway point of view alone in the longer term it doesn't much matter where in the town the HS2 station is situated as the town will no doubt adapt and evolve becoming more focused around on the new site as a secondary major activity centre, just like the existing station has become over the years. Although the existing station isn't right in the traditional centre of town, it is just about walkable. Milton Keynes was rather different in the sense it was fully planned as a new city centre with all the facilities that implies. The new station simply plugged into that and benefitted from the same local bus feeder networ, for example as also served the city centre. I see no similar fully formed plan and commitment for Basford, merely a 'parkway' around which planners hope speculative development will occur, albeit guided by a 'masterplan'. If we are to have a brand new hub I am much more in favour of siting it at the existing station location as proposed here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...o-high-speed-rail-city-a-vision-for-crewe.pdf
The deep level high speed platforms and long loops could be omitted if some of the new surface station platforms and the surface level junctions to the north were rebuilt for GC gauge. Then a Manchester (or future Glasgow) GC train could branch off south of the station, call at Crewe, then rejoin the HS line north of the station.

Wih a new Basford hub, instead of the existing site being retained as the local station, alternative repacement sites on the Chester and Warrington line might be investigated that would be closer to the centre. On the Chester line on Dunwoody Way next to the Cinema/Bowling complex. On the Warrington line at the Earle Street bridge, just a stonesthrow from the central square. Of course the problem with the latter is there are few local services on the Warrington Line, so yet another new connecting link would be required across to the Manchester line. Alternatively a less convenient site at Manchester Bridge on the existing Manchester line could be considered.
See Here: http://www.townend.me/files/crewehub.pdf

 

[6Gman]

If the Basford hub went ahead I'd definitely be in favour of diverting both lines to serve it, the Nantwich line in particular to join at the south end and avoid a time and platform- consuming reversal on the Manchester-Shrewsbury axis. With all services starting or terminating at Crewe, the Kidsgrove line could conceivable enter the new hub from the north via a short new chord line over open ground, but then those trains couldn't also serve the old station site (if it remained) without a reversal.

Wih a new Basford hub, instead of the existing site being retained as the local station, alternative repacement sites on the Chester and Warrington line might be investigated that would be closer to the centre. On the Chester line on Dunwoody Way next to the Cinema/Bowling complex. On the Warrington line at the Earle Street bridge, just a stonesthrow from the central square. Of course the problem with the latter is there are few local services on the Warrington Line, so yet another new connecting link would be required across to the Manchester line. Alternatively a less convenient site at Manchester Bridge on the existing Manchester line could be considered.
See Here: http://www.townend.me/files/crewehub.pdf

An interesting scheme, but:

a) the curve in from the Shrewsbury line looks very tight!
b) four 'local' stations in the Crewe area seems overgenerous! And what would call there?
c) your link from the Liverpool line to the Sandbach line goes straight through an SSSI!

 

[MarkyT]

a) the curve in from the Shrewsbury line looks very tight!

About 300m so not too bad.

b) four 'local' stations in the Crewe area seems overgenerous! And what would call there?

Maybe too many. The northernmost station on the Warrington route might be discarded but I thought the outer one on the Chester line could serve both housing as well as local industry including the Bentley factory.

I would combine the the hourly Arriva shuttle between Crewe and Chester with the East Midlands Derby - Crewe service and stop it at the new local stations on Chester route. Once most of the fast trains have been removed from the classic lines at Crewe, these trains should be able to cross the layout more easily. On the Warrington line the Birmingham-Liverpool service would call additionallly at the new station as well as the HS2 hub. Existing local services from Manchester would also call, being diverted via the new link.

c) your link from the Liverpool line to the Sandbach line goes straight through an SSSI!

Sandbach Flashes. Just looked it up. I don't know, you look for a fairly level route across open ground with no demolition and then the bats or the newts or the birds get you! It wouldn't necessarily stop you building entirely. The line could be diverted a little to the north to avoid the actual SSSI area itself, although it would definitely pass through the surrounding 'impact risk zone' so that probably means much detailed study and possibly expensive remediation work.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Before any GC route to Scotland gets built the only captive sets going north of Crewe will be for Manchester. Is a call at Crewe worth the construction costs of a complete new station? Without a new station classic compatibles for Glasgow/Edinburgh could call at Crewe but then the would be trapped on the classic network north thereof so couldn't make use of the spur to Wigan from the Manchester branch delta junction (dropping of which could be another possible economy at the cost of journey time for a non stop clearly).

Would it be worthwhile to upgrade what's already there of Crewe station to be able to cope with extra HS2 demands but then have to start from scratch in future? Is it feasible or even worthwhile to use the current station site for an HS2 hub? The business case for building an OOC-style station box in Crewe would have to be contrasted against a surface station out at Basford Hall, and although it wouldn't be able to serve the town itself so well, the cost involved would be significantly less so the business case could in fact be better.

The Manchester curve looks to be around 300m radius, a significant restriction in itself. I don't think the junction points make this any worse.

If you don't need to have a junction at the end of a curve, you have more flexibility in slewing the tracks to reduce the curve radius. It won't turn the curve into a high speed rail line overnight but it is where speeds are already low that you get the most benefit from increasing speeds. Upgrading a 20mph junction to 40mph makes much more of a difference to overall journey times than upgrading a 100mph junction to 125mph, for instance.

But not very convenient for locals commuting out of Crewe to other towns and cities on the lines radiating from this major junction. They'd now be forced to take an additional journey leg to the new hub, possibly going in the wrong direction and possibly having to buy an additional ticket, before going anywhere, and perhaps costing them an extra 20 miutes or so in each direction. I think retaining a local station and ensuring as many local services as possible could continue to serve it in addition to the new hub will be essential politically. Assuming a hub is built, it is not reasonable to assume that a new high rise megacity will immediately spring up in it's entirety around it. That process may take half a century before the land is fully developed. Once the new centre is there, then local bus networks etc can be comprehensively and economically reengineered to serve the local commercial activities AND the new station along with the older parts of town, but in the meantime the old town and its bus services will will remain largely focused on the old centre and the old station areas. That could make access to the new hub quite difficult for anyone without a car, and the traffic reduction from out of town travellers no longer needing to enter the centre could be offset by current rail users finding the new arrangements rather less convenient and making far more car journeys either to reach the new station or replacing existing local rail journeys entirely.

How many people locals get on services which then would not call at a downsized Crewe Central station? If the Nantwich and Stoke connecting lines were built, all the services where the need to change would make a considerable difference to the overall journey time would still be direct. If the opportunity were taken to then sort out some of the junctions at Crewe it could then be possible to run more frequent local services so everyone would benefit. The services which wouldn't call at the Crewe Central station would be long distance high speed services for which a 20 minute interchange time is not as important, and with HS2 the journey time saving would be large enough for some journeys that it would still be considerably faster to get a connecting service to the Hub and then interchange than it is today or would be on the classic lines then.

I agree from a railway point of view alone in the longer term it doesn't much matter where in the town the HS2 station is situated as the town will no doubt adapt and evolve becoming more focused around on the new site as a secondary major activity centre, just like the existing station has become over the years. Although the existing station isn't right in the traditional centre of town, it is just about walkable. Milton Keynes was rather different in the sense it was fully planned as a new city centre with all the facilities that implies. The new station simply plugged into that and benefitted from the same local bus feeder networ, for example as also served the city centre. I see no similar fully formed plan and commitment for Basford, merely a 'parkway' around which planners hope speculative development will occur, albeit guided by a 'masterplan'. If we are to have a brand new hub I am much more in favour of siting it at the existing station location as proposed here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...o-high-speed-rail-city-a-vision-for-crewe.pdf
The deep level high speed platforms and long loops could be omitted if some of the new surface station platforms and the surface level junctions to the north were rebuilt for GC gauge. Then a Manchester (or future Glasgow) GC train could branch off south of the station, call at Crewe, then rejoin the HS line north of the station.

My thoughts are that a new deliberately planned Garden City could be centred on the Crewe Hub. Any new planned city would not be like Milton Keynes in being designed for the car and low-density suburban sprawl, so it could actually be in the city centre rather than being almost an afterthought. The plans for the Shawfair new town near Edinburgh on the Borders Railway are a scaled-down version of what I'm thinking: the masterplan is that the station will be exactly in the centre where all the shops and services would be located and it would be within walking distance of the vast majority of the entire site.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair to MKC, it is directly adjacent to the CBD, thus providing easy access to businesses for time sensitive commuters, and is also adjacent to a housing area on the other side which is perfect for similarly time sensitive outbound commuters. The shopping centre is a bit of a walk, but no more than in other large towns, and takes people through the CBD thus providing a security benefit. There are also frequent buses for those who can't or won't walk. Thus it is a surprisingly good location overall, even though it indeed was an afterthought.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As regards the Crewe to Chester service, it is a service that exists only for nonsensical political reasons; the old service from Birmingham was far more useful. It would be much more use if it continued to Holyhead, which it could do to provide extra capacity on the Coast if it portion worked with the train from Birmingham via Wrexham.

 

[BigVern]

Does anyone know when there are going to be any real announcements about HS2 Phase 2 or the enhanced version of Phase 1 that was to be extended to Crewe?

I mean from DfT or HS2 Ltd who must be preparing a bill, rather than Cheshire East Council, who care little about the people of Crewe but can see a nice opportunity at Basford.

Sorry to disagree with everyone else (I think) but I preferred the original plan.
That is Phase one ending north of Birmingham and Phase 2 diving under Crewe station before part of it heading right into Manchester on a brand new line. So Crewe would lose its Manchester to London train, but would have these 'classic compatibles' stopping there having just left HS2 to join the WCML. And a proper local service could be restored on the Airport and Stockport lines.

I think the current station is in exactly the right place in relation to the 6 directions it serves, though maybe it needs low-level Manchester to Shrewsbury platforms to avoid some awkward conflicts.
And a new platform zero north east bay for terminating Manchesters.
And a serious attempt at fixing the whole roof, not just bits of it.
And a free bus to the town centre, like they have in Stockport, and used to have in Chester.

If there is a REAL announcement about moving the station then expect serious opposition from the current station users.

 

[Stats]

Does anyone know when there are going to be any real announcements about HS2 Phase 2 or the enhanced version of Phase 1 that was to be extended to Crewe?

I mean from DfT or HS2 Ltd who must be preparing a bill, rather than Cheshire East Council, who care little about the people of Crewe but can see a nice opportunity at Basford.

The government will be making an announcement for the phase 2 route before the end of the year.

 

[Altnabreac]

Agree with that completely. That would be a good way to get a half hourly Liverpool service, pairing each train with a portion to another NW destination whilst making maximum use of the HS paths. Interesting that platform 12 at the existing station is 400m long today, and a reinstated back face of the same island could be the same length.

+1 Wherever is chosen for the Crewe HS2 station site the obvious service pattern is 2tph 400m classic compatibles splitting and joining at Crewe.

HS2 are hugely reluctant to have costs from other schemes added to their (already large) bill so will not mention any services that might run over currently non electrified tracks.

Howeve if electrification makes it to Chester (and perhaps Llandudno / Holyhead) the service should be:

1tph Liverpool, Runcorn
splitting / joining with
1tph Chester (some extended to Llandudno/Bangor/Holyhead)

1tph Liverpool, Runcorn
splitting / joining with
1tph Warrington, Wigan, Preston (extended alternately to Lancaster and Blackpool North)

2tph would be a very good service for Crewe so there is no need for Manchester trains to call and no need for UIC gauge platforms.

If 400m classic compatible platforms can be provided at the current station then any new station location should be judged on it's own merits and not as a requirement of the HS2 scheme.

 

[Camden]

If the "ideal service pattern" according to you is just two trains an hour then the existing plans would appear to be far superior for them.

As for there being "no need for Manchester trains to call", I can think of several needs. Not least to prevent its trains running virtually empty for most of the day.

 

[Altnabreac]

If the "ideal service pattern" according to you is just two trains an hour then the existing plans would appear to be far superior for them.

I agree that a calling pattern of 2tph 400m CC trains could probably be accommodated in a slightly expanded station on the existing site.

That does not mean that there is no case for a new station but I just think it should be judged on a separate business case. Development potential plus road connectivity to Stoke could well tip the balance.

As for there being "no need for Manchester trains to call", I can think of several needs. Not least to prevent its trains running virtually empty for most of the day.

If you believe that Manchester trains need to call additionally to that 2tph service then you would certainly be looking at the new station site as you will be wanting new UIC gauge platforms and probably at least 4 HS platforms rather than the 2 you could probably get away with for a 2tph service.

I very much doubt there will be any need for Manchester - London services to call at Crewe, although perhaps a case could be made for Manchester - Birmingham services to call if UIC gauge through platforms were available on the new station site.

My other expectation of a service not currently in the HS2 Business Plan is that it seems likely there will be a 1tph Classic Compatible London - Stockport, Manchester service leaving HS2 at Lichfield and calling at Stoke. This could of course run via Crewe as well but it seems to me likely that it would have a much better business case to serve Macclesfield instead.