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Crewe-Chester HS2

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LNW-GW Joint

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One thing has occurred to me about this thread which applies to all OHLE schemes. Is it the case that bridge replacement is now almost automated so relatively cheap to do with pre-fabricated sections? The other point is that would it not be a strategic cost so that big /tall box containers have a greater range (so reducing the business cost for pax services)?

It's certainly true that the container clearance programme will reduce subsequent electrification costs (eg Nuneaton-Southampton/Felixstowe).
Trouble is there is no container traffic Crewe-Chester(-Holyhead).

The cost of electrifying Crewe-Chester may have been overdone - most of the low bridges are for farms or rural roads and might be quite easy to replace or divert.
 
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edwin_m

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I don't think bridge replacement could be described as cheap or easy. The increasing number of utilities and services are often a major cost, unless they can somehow be left undisturbed through the replacement. Lowering the track is often cheaper where it is possible. Electification and W10/W12 bridge enhancement do indeed often go together and I would hope that any bridge rebuilding anywhere would create clearances for both, except for the occasional case where this would be a big extra cost.

Wasn't BR using pre-fabricated bridge sections for electrification schemes in the 60s and 70s?
 

TDK

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I don't think bridge replacement could be described as cheap or easy. The increasing number of utilities and services are often a major cost, unless they can somehow be left undisturbed through the replacement. Lowering the track is often cheaper where it is possible. Electification and W10/W12 bridge enhancement do indeed often go together and I would hope that any bridge rebuilding anywhere would create clearances for both, except for the occasional case where this would be a big extra cost.

Wasn't BR using pre-fabricated bridge sections for electrification schemes in the 60s and 70s?

If they lowered the track it would be like a roller coaster due to the sheer number of bridges that need altering
 

LNW-GW Joint

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If they lowered the track it would be like a roller coaster due to the sheer number of bridges that need altering

I did a count once and I think it was over 20 round-arch bridges Crewe-Chester.
Many of them are on the skew and beautifully built by Thomas Brassey.
Some clearance work was done around 2003 to allow Pendolinos to reach Holyhead towed by 57s. I think the track was lowered in about six places.
There is an awkward one approaching Chester at Christleton where the Shropshire Union Canal goes over the line, which is in twin single-track skewed 146m tunnels.
I should think this one would be rather like Farnworth tunnels on the L&Y near Bolton.
 

Holly

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I did a count once and I think it was over 20 round-arch bridges Crewe-Chester.
Many of them are on the skew and beautifully built by Thomas Brassey.
Some clearance work was done around 2003 to allow Pendolinos to reach Holyhead towed by 57s. I think the track was lowered in about six places.
There is an awkward one approaching Chester at Christleton where the Shropshire Union Canal goes over the line, which is in twin single-track skewed 146m tunnels.
I should think this one would be rather like Farnworth tunnels on the L&Y near Bolton.
Yes, a totally new railway additional railway is not that much more than upgrading. And much more valuable when finished. In fact it might be cheaper than upgrading if you built quad track and then closed the old right of way and sold it off piecemeal.
 

snowball

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Wasn't BR using pre-fabricated bridge sections for electrification schemes in the 60s and 70s?
They were used in a big way when the WCML was electrified north of Weaver Junction in the early 70s. But they don't make bridge replacement "cheap", much less "automated".
 

HSTEd

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The 'simple' way to GC gauge clear the line, assuming a closure is allowed, is simply to dig up the entire track bed and dig a 1.5-2m trench, then put the track back in.
 

Gareth

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Gateshead...? ;)


Exactly. Just because they get their bins emptied by a different local authority doesn't really alter the reality of their relationship with the city centre.

But neither of those sites would be appropriate for a HS2 terminal for Newcastle and Manchester and neither would Birkenhead for Liverpool. Like most other UK cities, Liverpool's public transport system is as hub & spoke system focused on the city centre. From most of the metropoltan area, one can get there without needing to change trains or buses. Birkenhead is fine for the Wirral and the city centre itself but the rest of the area would have to change in the city centre, adding time and inconvenience. It's why ideas for making Edge Hill a high speed terminus are also a non-starter for me.
 

edwin_m

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I agree, but where would a high speed station go in central Liverpool? All I can think of is tunneling under the city (at least it's reasonable geologically) and infilling a couple of the less historic docks for the station site. Or perhaps using the Exchange site but accessed from the "wrong" end where the buffer stops used to be.

With the relatively low rail traffic at Liverpool compared with Manchester, and the fact that a Liverpool HS2 classic service could also serve Runcorn or Warrington which would be bypassed by new infrastructure, this probably helps to explain why HS2 doesn't have a Liverpool branch.
 

HSTEd

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If you want an Exchange station you could probably use the existing viaduct/cutting alignment (assuming 3 tracks will fit or if you are willing to get dual voltage stock on Merseyrail) as far north as Kirkdale or even Kirkby.

At which point you proceed on a new alignment to HS2 in the Vicinity of Wigan.

Ofcourse since it is only 10km between the Exchange station approach and Kirkby a single track section through the outskirts of Liverpool would probably be acceptable.

Since you could still support ~4tph in each direction probably, more if you got clever and flighted trains from various destinations.
 

Gareth

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I agree, but where would a high speed station go in central Liverpool? All I can think of is tunneling under the city (at least it's reasonable geologically) and infilling a couple of the less historic docks for the station site. Or perhaps using the Exchange site but accessed from the "wrong" end where the buffer stops used to be.

With the relatively low rail traffic at Liverpool compared with Manchester, and the fact that a Liverpool HS2 classic service could also serve Runcorn or Warrington which would be bypassed by new infrastructure, this probably helps to explain why HS2 doesn't have a Liverpool branch.

A new alignment into central Liverpool would not be straightforward from an engineering point of view but where there's a will there's a way, as is evidently the case with Birmingham, Manchester & Leeds. I've looked into this quite a bit and really, there's only two sensible locations for a city centre station - Lime Street and the old Exchange site (Moorfields essentially), as mentioned by HSTEd. Any new line would have to arrive at one of those two locations, in my opinion.

As for relatively low rail traffic compared to Manchester, a lot of this will be because of the low frequency, rather than the low frequency being a result of low demand. Whilst Liverpool has about half of Manchester's demand to London, it has only a third of Manchester's service. Also, Liverpool's the only core city to have a London frequency of less than 2tph. The problem with this low frequency is that it causes what I can only describe as 'seepage'; essentially, those who would naturally use Lime Street end up using other stations because it works out quicker than waiting for the next Lime Street service. In fact, there's no station where National Rail Enquiries doesn't give another station as an option for London. Even Lime Street itself, half the time, it is recommended to get a train to Crewe and change. Manchester and Chester trains call at Crewe and so people who would naturally be in the Liverpool rail market are supporting Manchester and Chester services. Lime Street's near enough unique for a big city station in this regards. Stick Manchester Piccadilly, Leeds, Sheffield etc to London in National Rail Enquiries and they don't suggest changing at another location ever.

Liverpool not being given a captive spur has little really to do with serving Runcorn, Crewe and Stafford. At the end of the day, Stockport, Macclesfield and Stoke haven't stopped a Manchester spur. It's not even cost. If they wanted a Liverpool spur on principle, they'd ensure to justify it. The real reason is lack of paths. Remember, Network Rail's own proposals called for a West Coast high speed that included a captive spur to Liverpool, as did the Greengauge21 proposals. Whitehall, however, wanted to serve its Yorkshire & The Humber (Leeds) regional capital as well as its North West one (Manchester), so the Y-shape was insisted upon, along with Heathrow. Liverpool was the sacrifice.

And this is Liverpool's problem. It's by far the largest city that's been lumped into one of these regions of which it's not the considered the capital. So, Liverpool's an "intermediate destination" as HS2 Ltd call it, considered more akin to Crewe, Stafford etc than Manchester or Leeds. It's the sad consequence of an overly centralized state (surely the most centralized large country in the Western world) and one that will eventually kill Liverpool if it is not replaced with a better way of doing things.
 
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Ironside

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A new alignment into central Liverpool would not be straightforward from an engineering point of view but where there's a will there's a way, as is evidently the case with Birmingham, Manchester & Leeds. I've looked into this quite a bit and really, there's only two sensible locations for a city centre station - Lime Street and the old Exchange site (Moorfields essentially), as mentioned by HSTEd. Any new line would have to arrive at one of those two locations, in my opinion.

As for relatively low rail traffic compared to Manchester, a lot of this will be because of the low frequency, rather than the low frequency being a result of low demand. Whilst Liverpool has about half of Manchester's demand to London, it has only a third of Manchester's service. Also, Liverpool's the only core city to have a London frequency of less than 2tph. The problem with this low frequency is that it causes what I can only describe as 'seepage'; essentially, those who would naturally use Lime Street end up using other stations because it works out quicker than waiting for the next Lime Street service. In fact, there's no station where National Rail Enquiries doesn't give another station as an option for London. Even Lime Street itself, half the time, it is recommended to get a train to Crewe and change. Manchester and Chester trains call at Crewe and so people who would naturally be in the Liverpool rail market are supporting Manchester and Chester services. Lime Street's near enough unique for a big city station in this regards. Stick Manchester Piccadilly, Leeds, Sheffield etc to London in National Rail Enquiries and they don't suggest changing at another location ever.

Liverpool not being given a captive spur has little really to do with serving Runcorn, Crewe and Stafford. At the end of the day, Stockport, Macclesfield and Stoke haven't stopped a Manchester spur. It's not even cost. If they wanted a Liverpool spur on principle, they'd ensure to justify it. The real reason is lack of paths. Remember, Network Rail's own proposals called for a West Coast high speed that included a captive spur to Liverpool, as did the Greengauge21 proposals. Whitehall, however, wanted to serve its Yorkshire & The Humber (Leeds) regional capital as well as its North West one (Manchester), so the Y-shape was insisted upon, along with Heathrow. Liverpool was the sacrifice.

And this is Liverpool's problem. It's by far the largest city that's been lumped into one of these regions of which it's not the considered the capital. So, Liverpool's an "intermediate destination" as HS2 Ltd call it, considered more akin to Crewe, Stafford etc than Manchester or Leeds. It's the sad consequence of an overly centralized state (surely the most centralized large country in the Western world) and one that will eventually kill Liverpool if it is not replaced with a better way of doing things.

So is the only chance of Liverpool having a core route to London is if a new route from London to say Nottingham was built to take some of the Yorkshire trains?
 

Gareth

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I think that would be the plan. But in the timescales we're talking about (20 years for Phase 2), we won't see this for a long time and I'm not sure Liverpool could survive the handicap for so long.

If Heathrow doesn't go ahead, then that could help things, as Liverpool could argue that it's been given a rather lousey hand in comparison to other large cities on the network and that the spare paths should prioritise improving Liverpool's lot. Certainly, an extra path could be found to serve Stafford and Crewe, plus doing away with the portion-working with Birmingham trains, as proposed for one of Liverpool's 2tph. A classic compatible to Chester calling at those two stations could allow Liverpool trains to run fast and be more competitive journey time-wise.

I'm not sure how much faith I have in the local governance to make this case competently, however.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Also, Liverpool's the only core city to have a London frequency of less than 2tph.

Glasgow, Preston?
A second hourly service for Liverpool would need 5 more Pendolinos and another WCML path unless you diverted the Manchester via Wilmslow train which isn't going to happen.
Things might look up when the Norton Bridge upgrade is complete (2017), but Liverpool is competing with Preston for the extra path.
 

tbtc

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there's no station where National Rail Enquiries doesn't give another station as an option for London. Even Lime Street itself, half the time, it is recommended to get a train to Crewe and change. Manchester and Chester trains call at Crewe and so people who would naturally be in the Liverpool rail market are supporting Manchester and Chester services. Lime Street's near enough unique for a big city station in this regards. Stick Manchester Piccadilly, Leeds, Sheffield etc to London in National Rail Enquiries and they don't suggest changing at another location ever

Its often faster to do Sheffield - London via Doncaster (than direct). The reason why this may not show up in searches is because the tickets are routed "via Chesterfield" though.

Presumably there are times when it'd be faster to do Bristol - London by changing at Parkway? Same with Sunderland - London being faster at times via Newcastle than waiting on the next direct service. Its certainly faster to do Bradford - London by changing at Leeds (than by GC).

Whitehall, however, wanted to serve its Yorkshire & The Humber (Leeds) regional capital as well as its North West one (Manchester), so the Y-shape was insisted upon, along with Heathrow. Liverpool was the sacrifice.

And this is Liverpool's problem. It's by far the largest city that's been lumped into one of these regions of which it's not the considered the capital. So, Liverpool's an "intermediate destination" as HS2 Ltd call it, considered more akin to Crewe, Stafford etc than Manchester or Leeds. It's the sad consequence of an overly centralized state (surely the most centralized large country in the Western world) and one that will eventually kill Liverpool if it is not replaced with a better way of doing things.

Is Liverpool "by far" bigger than Sheffield? We're not a regional capital either, not are we getting any HS2 trains in our city centre ("classic compatible" or otherwise).

I don't know whether Nottingham or Derby are "regional capitals" either, but neither get an HS2 station in the centre.
 

ivanhoe

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Gareth, I share your aspirations about 2 Tph to Liverpool but I'm not sure there is the market. There are enough half empty trains plying the West Coast line before adding more to it. I'd rather see more through trains to Bristol and Scotland .
 

HSTEd

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If we were trying to build a minimum cost spur, I would suggest my previous Exchange route if a near-centre station was critical or something in Birkenhead if it is not. (Birkenhead spur would benefit from improved journey times to North Wales and have shorter overall journeys but would require more new track).

Minimum cost spurs onto the High speed network would allow capacity increases through trading 200m CC single deck trains for 400m DDs.
 

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An HS spur to Birkenhead has its merits as above but how would the Scousers gain access. Ferry 'cross the Mersey?
And the plans for Crewe would require a complete revamp since captive stuff ain't intended to stop there but bury itself on the way north.

Fond thoughts though. If ever an HS spur from Crewe is contemplated, I can't see it extending beyond Chester.
 
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HSTEd

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An HS spur to Birkenhead has its merits as above but how would the Scousers gain access. Ferry 'cross the Mersey?

Merseyrail runs to Birkenhead with only a few minutes journeytime from central Liverpool, that could provide the transfer required.
I make the Birkenhead option as 55km and the Exchange square option at 27km of new route, with neither option requiring massive amounts of new tunnelling although gauge enhancement on a couple of existing tunnels would be necessary on the latter option.
 

pablo

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So you'd have the HS terminus at Birkenhead Central or Rock Ferry?! Wow, The one eyed city would never get over it!
So, fer de Scousers, it'd be da bus ta James Street or Central an den de Underground ta Birknhead?

I used to work opposite Exchange Station. Remember the Rolling Stones staying in the hotel....
Not the most convenient location to get at for most of the City. Central would be better for most.
 
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Gareth

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Its often faster to do Sheffield - London via Doncaster (than direct). The reason why this may not show up in searches is because the tickets are routed "via Chesterfield" though.

Presumably there are times when it'd be faster to do Bristol - London by changing at Parkway? Same with Sunderland - London being faster at times via Newcastle than waiting on the next direct service. Its certainly faster to do Bradford - London by changing at Leeds (than by GC).



Is Liverpool "by far" bigger than Sheffield? We're not a regional capital either, not are we getting any HS2 trains in our city centre ("classic compatible" or otherwise).

I don't know whether Nottingham or Derby are "regional capitals" either, but neither get an HS2 station in the centre.

I didn't account for Doncaster as admittedly I put St Pancras as the destination. It seems that Sheffield's 2tph are not clockface which makes via Doncaster sometimes quicker. Still, at least that's via a separate line. There's no suggestion that one should change to another Midland Mainline service due to inferior frequency half of the time.

I would say Liverpool is comfortably bigger than Sheffield, even if much of the wider city happens to fall into other local authority areas. That said, Sheffield is comfortably the second biggest non-regional capital and it suffers for it. Nottingham is designated the East Midlands regional capital but it is the Cinderella region, due to the Midlands largely considered one region until relatively recent times. Even so, the main point of HS2 is to primarily replace the West Coast mainline in terms of long distance services, not the Midland Mainline. For whatever reason, Whitehall wanted Leeds included too (note how Network Rail had to constantly defend excluding that one city in its New Lines proposals) and that's the whole point of the easterly spur. On the whole, it cares little for Sheffield or the East Midlands and gives them 'out in the woods' stations just because they happen to be on the way to Calendar News land.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Gareth, I share your aspirations about 2 Tph to Liverpool but I'm not sure there is the market. There are enough half empty trains plying the West Coast line before adding more to it. I'd rather see more through trains to Bristol and Scotland .

Liverpool has half Manchester's demand to London but a third of the service. The good old DfT even want their 'second city' to have 4tph which would make it a quarter of the service. Likewise, places like Chester get the same frequency as Liverpool whilst having nowhere near the same demand. Like I said, 2tph would be transformative and substantially strengthen Liverpool's rail market even without any increase in demand (although demand from Liverpool has grown decently over the last decade, despite constant forecasts insisting it wouldn't). There'd be no changing at Crewe (and so supporting Chester and Manchester trains) half the time or going to Chester instead. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the unwillingness to up the frequency to 2tph had a lot to do the effect it could have on the Chester services. Furthermore, the more trains per hour will usually mean more connections to locations other than London which adds demand for other journeys onto the same route. Liverpool (and Runcorn) only has Stafford as standard and so needs to change for much of the West Coast mainline, ultimately supporting services from other destinations; more often than not services to and from Manchester.

If the trains on the WCML are as empty as you are saying however, then maybe other places should see cuts in frequencies. If they're so poorly used though, why is HS2 even necessary?
 
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tbtc

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changing at Crewe (and so supporting Chester and Manchester trains)

The fact that you seem to see the WCML services as "us and them" (and anyone from south/western Liverpool who uses local services to Crewe to change there for a London train is "supporting them") makes it hard to have this debate.

If I get a Cleethorpes or Hull service from Sheffield to Doncaster to change for a London bound train, I'm really not fussed whether I'm boarding a train that started at Newcastle/ Bradford/ Skipton etc.
 

HSTEd

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I love how people complain that Manchester services are half-empty and then blow up in my face when I suggest that frequencies could be reduced to 1tph post-HS2.
 

transmanche

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Likewise, places like Chester get the same frequency as Liverpool whilst having nowhere near the same demand.
They may have the same frequency, but do they have the same capacity? I'd be genuinely interested to know how many Chester runs are single/double 221s? - and how many Liverpool runs are 9/11-car 390s?
 

Welshman

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They may have the same frequency, but do they have the same capacity? I'd be genuinely interested to know how many Chester runs are single/double 221s? - and how many Liverpool runs are 9/11-car 390s?

I don't know which Liverpool Pendos are 9 and which are 11-car units, but from my experience the 0735, 1435, 1535 & 1635 ex Chester and the 0910,1710,1810 & 1910 ex Euston are double Voyager units. The remainder are single sets.

The Chester services are usually well-filled throughout the day, as Virgin has made a good job of promoting this service. Plus the fact many people use the Chester train to go on elsewhere - into the Wirral, the North Wales Coast and into Wrexham/North Mid Wales.
 

Pumbaa

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1348 ex Lime Street is 11 car.

1648, 1748 ex Lime Street are 9 car.

1633, 1733, 1833, 1907 ex Euston are 11 car.

1807, 2107 ex Euston are 9 car.

Those are the ones I can vouch for on a regular basis.
 

Gareth

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The fact that you seem to see the WCML services as "us and them" (and anyone from south/western Liverpool who uses local services to Crewe to change there for a London train is "supporting them") makes it hard to have this debate.

If I get a Cleethorpes or Hull service from Sheffield to Doncaster to change for a London bound train, I'm really not fussed whether I'm boarding a train that started at Newcastle/ Bradford/ Skipton etc.

Yep, you just have a different way of seeing things, you say tomato etc. So far as I'm concerned, "us and them" is relevant when it comes to a city's own competitiveness. And decent railways services are important for a major city in this respect.

What happens on the rest of the WCML will affect Liverpool services. The lack of frequency compared to similar-sized cities and even far smaller places causes seepage into what are actually smaller rail markets (i.e. Chester, Wigan...). If it's okay for Sheffield, then whatever, but I think it's madness that a lot of people will leave Lime Street itself and then change at Crewe. I'm not blaming the people who do it, as its not the passengers' responsibility but this essentially reinforces the status-quo in where Liverpool only warrants 1tph, as so many who would naturally use the Liverpool-London pendolino are either getting a London Midland service to Crewe and then changing, thus supporting the viability of one of the many Manchester pendolino services or the Chester service, or beginning their mainline journey from other stations (Chester, Wigan, Warrington, Preston even Manchester sometimes) which they wouldn't do if the frequency was 2tph or more. Hence, less people use the Liverpool-London pendolino which thus justifies the status-quo which then causes the market seepage that justifies the status-quo. A downward spiral, if you like and not exactly great for the city.

If I can simplify my main point though in the best possible way, it is this; the quality of the service will affect the demand. If it's not as good, less people will use it than would if it was better, finding other options more viable. And this, along with Whitehall/DfT's insistence of including Leeds, is what's being used to justify Liverpool's rather poor provision in the high speed plans. And unlike the frequency issue as exists today, it's not something that will be able to be changed by a mere timetable recast once it's built. It'll be kinda permanent and Liverpool's fate will be sealed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They may have the same frequency, but do they have the same capacity? I'd be genuinely interested to know how many Chester runs are single/double 221s? - and how many Liverpool runs are 9/11-car 390s?

I'm not sure how to get such information. I too would find that interesting. The thing is, even if Liverpool somehow had magic 18-car pendolinos at 1tph, it would still suffer the market seepage due to the low frequency. I'm certain these huge hypothetical trains would be more empty then two half their size at a doubled frequency. Really, frequency is critical when it comes to the difference between 1tph and 2tph. The higher you go, the less critical it is, as 3tph is 50% of 2tph, whereas 2tph is 200% of 1tph.

I think the Chester service mainly exists because of the North Wales extensions and this will be chiefly down to the TEN-T status of the route. Certainly, Chester is by far the smallest of the standard termini on the West Coast franchise. It could be that a higher Liverpool frequency would adversely affect the viability of this route. It's interesting though, that TEN-T status hasn't saved the route from being omitted from HS2.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Liverpool's problem is the blank space on the map to the northwest.
There is very little "feed" to beyond the immediate city, unlike all the other destinations on the WCML. It's a bit like Hull in that respect, only bigger.
Parts of Merseyside (Southport, Kirkby, St Helens and much of the Wirral) are in any case more conveniently served from Wigan, Warrington or Chester.
My casual observation (at Lime St and Warrington) suggests that Preston/Glasgow trains are fuller than Liverpool trains (both are hourly).
They both seem to have a good proportion of 11-car sets.
Chester mostly gets a 5-car Voyager and this replaced an ATW local from Crewe from a connection. It provides 2tph at Crewe as well, and is a key part of the service at Milton Keynes.
Chester also services a much larger hinterland than Liverpool does.
If the Blackpool/Shrewsbury trains don't come off would Liverpool like a few irregular 5-car Voyager services added to the mix, or a direct LM service to London?
It might all change again with the timetable revamp in 2016.
 
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