Crewe-Chester HS2

[Gareth]

I think you, and many people for that matter, under-estimate the size of the Liverpool area. I really can't see how Chester's catchment is naturally larger, if that's what you mean by hinterland. Also, from looking into this in fair depth, 2tph from Liverpool more or less kills off any changing at Crewe for almost all of the city region (bar South Parkway due to the 2tph London Midland service) and very few north of Spital would use Chester at all, whilst Lime Street would be a viable alternative to Chester as far south as Hooton. Likewise, Lime Street becomes more of an alternative for Southport than it currently is and other peripheral places.

Any additional fast services would be good, though a slow London Midland service to London would make little difference in terms of the Liverpool-London market, though might improve connectivity to places in the south midlands. Indeed, if it was to be in addition to the 2tph to Birmingham, rather than replacing one of them, it could potentially cause even more seepage to Crewe, as it would naturally stop there.

 

[tbtc]

I think you, and many people for that matter, under-estimate the size of the Liverpool area

You've previously said that you think that "Liverpool is comfortably bigger than Sheffield, even if much of the wider city happens to fall into other local authority areas". so maybe you could tell me what you think counts as "Liverpool".

I'd guess that a lot of places that you define as "Liverpool" are better served by Warrington/ Wigan/ Chester than they are by Lime Street?

 

[Welshman]

I think you, and many people for that matter, under-estimate the size of the Liverpool area. I really can't see how Chester's catchment is naturally larger, if that's what you mean by hinterland.

In my experience Chester's present catchment area is artificially extended right along the North Wales Coast to Llandudno, Bangor and the Isle of Anglesey, if the numbers of people interchanging every hour between ATW's 158/175s and Virgin's 221s at Chester is anything to go by. Now if units allowed, and the Virgin service were extended along the N.Wales Coast every hour instead of the present 6 times per day, then perhaps the "natural" catchment area of Chester would be smaller than that of Liverpool.

 

[edwin_m]

The Meadowhall HS2 station isn't just to serve Sheffield, it serves the whole of South Yorkshire and some areas beyond, which is why it makes sense to put it somewhere that has pretty good regional rail and road connections. So trying to compare Liverpool with Sheffield isn't very useful, and the point has been made that there will be several other high speed stops within the "catchment" of a Liverpool stop.

A possible service pattern for two trains an hour to Liverpool might be to use classic-compatibles with one running via Runcorn and the other via Warrington. Since Lime Street can't take 400m trains, both would split/join at Crewe with a portion going to Chester or beyond and maybe the other portion reversing to Stoke or doing something really zany like Wilmslow-Stockport-Huddersfield.

 

[Gareth]

You've previously said that you think that "Liverpool is comfortably bigger than Sheffield, even if much of the wider city happens to fall into other local authority areas". so maybe you could tell me what you think counts as "Liverpool".

I'd guess that a lot of places that you define as "Liverpool" are better served by Warrington/ Wigan/ Chester than they are by Lime Street?

Liverpool is essentially 'Merseyside' bar Southport and St Helens, as a gerneralised definiton - Scouse accent, refer to the city centre as 'town' etc. Regardless, it's larger than Sheffield by any sensible definition anyway, unless you're seriously going to argue that Stocksbridge is Sheffield whilst Huyton isn't Liverpool.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In my experience Chester's present catchment area is artificially extended right along the North Wales Coast to Llandudno, Bangor and the Isle of Anglesey, if the numbers of people interchanging every hour between ATW's 158/175s and Virgin's 221s at Chester is anything to go by. Now if units allowed, and the Virgin service were extended along the N.Wales Coast every hour instead of the present 6 times per day, then perhaps the "natural" catchment area of Chester would be smaller than that of Liverpool.

That's an interesting point. Of course, it would make little difference as North Wales traffic would still be using a London service via Chester even if they boarded at Rhyl or Holyhead more often. Still, Liverpool has a much higher London demand than Chester and I doubt the addition of North Wales is a game-changer on that score.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A possible service pattern for two trains an hour to Liverpool might be to use classic-compatibles with one running via Runcorn and the other via Warrington. Since Lime Street can't take 400m trains, both would split/join at Crewe with a portion going to Chester or beyond and maybe the other portion reversing to Stoke or doing something really zany like Wilmslow-Stockport-Huddersfield.

Some interesting ideas there, though Liverpool's journey time is still woefully slow in comparison to Manchester and even places like Preston. Getting rid of the 'Stafford then join HS2 at Lichfield' service is a good start though. If we're talking about classic compatibles that split; how about one that splits at Birmingham International: a portion goes to Stafford and then Stoke whilst another goes to Crewe and then Chester/North Wales, assuming the latter route is electrified by then. If the path could be found, it'd free Liverpool trains from going all the way down to Stafford, whilst giving the likes of Stoke etc a better service too.

 

[Holly]

... Some interesting ideas there, though Liverpool's journey time is still woefully slow in comparison to Manchester and even places like Preston. Getting rid of the 'Stafford then join HS2 at Lichfield' service is a good start though. If we're talking about classic compatibles that split; how about one that splits at ...

Joining en route is significantly more problematic operationally than splitting en route.

Basically, a train that joins en route is twice as likely to be delayed (in part or in whole) and causes twice the problem if it is delayed (as compared with a single train that is delayed).

What is operationally better is something like:
Full train leaves X, splits at B with half going to C and half to D. Where B is far from X but relatively close to C and D. (example X=London, B=Carstairs, C=Glasgow, D=Edinburgh.

Then a second full train goes from Y, it also splits at B with half going to C and half to D.

At this point we have two halves at each of C and D, so we join them together in the terminus (where it is not an operational problem) and reverse the run. Splitting both returning trains at Z to send halves to X and Y.
Sounds complicated but it isn't.
Split two full trains at Carstairs Northbound and rejoin the four halves, two at Glasgow and two at Edinburgh.
X and Y could be OOC and Euston.

 

[Martin222002]

Some interesting ideas there, though Liverpool's journey time is still woefully slow in comparison to Manchester and even places like Preston. Getting rid of the 'Stafford then join HS2 at Lichfield' service is a good start though. If we're talking about classic compatibles that split; how about one that splits at Birmingham International: a portion goes to Stafford and then Stoke whilst another goes to Crewe and then Chester/North Wales, assuming the latter route is electrified by then. If the path could be found, it'd free Liverpool trains from going all the way down to Stafford, whilst giving the likes of Stoke etc a better service too.

From what I've read the HS2 journey times to Liverpool would be between 1hr 50min and 1hr 46min when leaving HS2 at Lichfield (and serving Stafford) and 1hr 36min when leaving HS2 at Crewe, which are both much longer than the 1hr 8min journey time proposed to Manchester.

However having a look at the route, if there was a connection from HS2 to the Chat Moss line where HS2 passes over it could possibly offer a journey time to Liverpool of 1hr 20min, which is far closer to the Manchester journey time than.

The only issue I can see with such a connection is that Runcorn would loose its fast service to London, however this could be counter balanced by being able to serve Newton-le-Willows (as an example) once on the Chat Moss line.

 

[HSTEd]

Doesn't the Crewe "access point" allow far more than Liverpool trains, although they aren't in the spec any future classic compatibles to Chester could run via that route, whereas a slip onto the Chat Moss would only benefit Liverpool to the extent of 16 minutes.

Liverpool CC trains are likely to stop at Crewe in the aftermath of HS2 opening since there are hardly any other trains to do so.

 

[Martin222002]

Doesn't the Crewe "access point" allow far more than Liverpool trains, although they aren't in the spec any future classic compatibles to Chester could run via that route, whereas a slip onto the Chat Moss would only benefit Liverpool to the extent of 16 minutes.

Liverpool CC trains are likely to stop at Crewe in the aftermath of HS2 opening since there are hardly any other trains to do so.

Very true. The connection at Crewe would also be able to serve Warrington Bank Quay as well as Chester (and on to North Wales), Runcorn and Liverpool Lime Street. However my suggestion was made with the idea that the Chat Moss connection would be in addition to the one at Crewe.

Also it may save "only" 16 minutes on the London to Liverpool journey time, it would bring the HS2 time saving up to 46 minutes over 30, and would mean that the difference between the journey time from London to Liverpool and Manchester would then be 12 minutes rather than 28 minutes.

Crewe wouldn't see a loss in service by such a cord being build, as it could be served by those services going to Chester (and on to North Wales) and Preston (and Lancaster) serving Warrington Bank Quay and Wigan North Western on the way. Preferably I'd like to see the proposal of new Crewe station in the Basford Hall area which would serve both HS2 and the WCML as one integrated station, similar to that proposed at Toton. This would allow far more HS2 services to serve Crewe.

 

[pablo]

HS2 only want four stations on the western leg. A stop at Crewe also, would turn it into something like a Shinkansen, and that would never do.

 

[HSTEd]

Well if a minimum cost spur to liverpool is built in the future we will have to build a connection between the north end of Crewe station and the line north.... and then gauge clear the whole Crewe mess for GC.....

Frankly it would be better to build a brand new Crewe station, on the HS2 "main line" where the avoiding lines are now and then put a GC gauged connection north of it.

But as pablo says that would turn this project into something like a Shinkansen and that must be avoided at all costs.

 

[pablo]

Apparently ignored by HS2 Ltd. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...o-high-speed-rail-city-a-vision-for-crewe.pdf

and when you look at what a hub Crewe is presently, it's b****y daft not stopping there.

 

[eps200]

I think you, and many people for that matter, under-estimate the size of the Liverpool area. I really can't see how Chester's catchment is naturally larger, if that's what you mean by hinterland. Also, from looking into this in fair depth, 2tph from Liverpool more or less kills off any changing at Crewe for almost all of the city region (bar South Parkway due to the 2tph London Midland service) and very few north of Spital would use Chester at all, whilst Lime Street would be a viable alternative to Chester as far south as Hooton. Likewise, Lime Street becomes more of an alternative for Southport than it currently is and other peripheral places.

Any additional fast services would be good, though a slow London Midland service to London would make little difference in terms of the Liverpool-London market, though might improve connectivity to places in the south midlands. Indeed, if it was to be in addition to the 2tph to Birmingham, rather than replacing one of them, it could potentially cause even more seepage to Crewe, as it would naturally stop there.

I can attest that from Birkenhead it's almost always faster and cheaper to go via Chester, further down the Wirral you go the worse it gets, i only use lime street to reach brum. if Crewe chester gets wired even that advantage drops out i've heard stuff as mad as running that LM train to hooton.

 

[pablo]

Anything would be better than ATW's shuttle.

 

[Holly]

if Crewe chester gets wired even that advantage drops out i've heard stuff as mad as running that LM train to hooton.

Long distance trains from Hooton would be popular. Mostly due to parking (space to build lots more parking than today).

 

[gordonthemoron]

I often do Milton Keynes to Liverpool via Chester as my hotel is by Moorfields station and so it is more convenient than walking from Lime Street, and probably marginally quicker

 

[pablo]

Long distance trains from Hooton would be popular. Mostly due to parking (space to build lots more parking than today).

That's very true and would reduce conjestion in Chester City centre.
There is space at Hooton to hold a Voyager at P2 with a loop via P1 for the second one to pass and connect up, as done at Chester, but it would be seen as pure abstraction.
VT, there's an idea for you.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That's very true and would reduce conjestion in Chester City centre.
There is space at Hooton to hold a Voyager at P2 with a loop via P1 for the second one to pass and connect up, as done at Chester, but it would be seen as pure abstraction.
VT, there's an idea for you.

Some of us speculated that VT would get more business from Hooton than Wrexham when they introduced that service dividing at Chester.
But there's more political gain in serving Wrexham (and undoubted demand).
There are plenty of business travellers in the mid-Wirral fringe (Heswall, Neston, Bromborough etc) who otherwise use the M56/M6.
Merseyrail's 4tph rather puts the block on it though.

The Hooton car park (80p a day) is the friendliest in the business (run by Chester council).

 

[eps200]

The Hooton VT thing would probably need new loops or 3/4 tracking, i assume all the Mersey rail services can use the current Eport platforms with new junction and resignaling.

The LM euston-crewe service terminating at chester would also remove the need for the Ariva crewe-chester shuttle.

Only major issue i see is capacity at Chester station with everything headed across the three bi-directionals. Unless you can terminate the Mersey rail 4tph somewhere out of station to stop them blocking up platform 7 I dont see a way around it.

 

[pablo]

Strewth!
Hooton Parkway could accept five-car Voyagers in P2 without any alteration. P1 southern half would need some re-surfacing. Done!
Platforms are not long enough for 10-car so no point in the loops I mentioned previously. Plenty of storage to the north.

You are not telling me that a convenient path from Chester's P3a to the Wirral Line for 1tph can't be found?
Returning, might have to wait for P7b to vacate but then straight through to P7a. Would need some trackwork to go into P4a if to be joined with an ex-Holyhead.

All possible without gold-plating. Is this how NR comes up with £209 million for the Borderlands electrification. Pure negativity?