Covid restrictions to end on 19th July

[yorkie]

I'm surprised nobody has started a "will you still wear a mask?" poll.

There is no need as this has been done in other places and the results were fairly predictable.

Those who want protection can wear an FFP3 without any need to worry about what others are doing. It's as simple as that; what more is there to say? It only becomes an issue if people want to ignore the clear and obvious science regarding FFP3 masks versus standard masks.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

People in this age group overwhelmingly have very minimal risks associated with this virus; of the 36% of adults who've not yet had two doses, more than half have still been vaccinated with a single dose, which brings down the risk of severe illness massively (and that's before you consider our innate immunity and the proportion of people with naturally acquired adaptive immunity)

Bull****. I suggest you read about Long Covid and it’s impacts on physical and mental well-being. This is on the NHS website page regarding LC;

The chances of having long-term symptoms does not seem to be linked to how ill you are when you first get COVID-19.

People who had mild symptoms at first can still have long-term problems.

Symptoms of long COVID

There are lots of symptoms you can have after a COVID-19 infection.

Common long COVID symptoms include:

extreme tiredness (fatigue)
shortness of breath
chest pain or tightness
problems with memory and concentration ("brain fog")
difficulty sleeping (insomnia)
heart palpitations
dizziness
pins and needles
joint pain
depression and anxiety
tinnitus, earaches
feeling sick, diarrhoea, stomach aches, loss of appetite
a high temperature, cough, headaches, sore throat, changes to sense of smell or taste
rashes

Long COVID

Find out about long COVID, including the symptoms, how it's diagnosed, and the treatment and support available.

www.nhs.uk

I personally know three people in the sub-40 age group who have suffered / are suffering from Long Covid combined with an underlying health condition. One individual is Head of Music in a West Midlands secondary school; they are understandably ‘overjoyed’ that mask restrictions are being removed.

Edit - just to add, its not possible to teach a class wearing an FFP3 mask, before anyone wonders.

 

[37424]

Just to clarify, specifically for Yorkie’s benefit, at no time have I said that I’m in favour of prolonged restriction of our society. What I actually said was



I defined my comfort level, nothing more. I don’t see anything in the scientific data that indicates 19th July 2021 as a specifically appropriate / significant date for opening up our collective immune systems to the virus. If one was actually following the science, you’d identify the date at which the adult population is fully vaccinated, which will be late August. As it stands, more than a few people in the sub-40 age group are going to be faced with significant risks associated with acquiring Covid - be it specific issues such as cancer, immune deficiencies, chronic asthma or a combination of conditions, which, taken together, create a statistically increased risk.
(This is one of the ways in which the shielding criteria failed - if you have several conditions all of which are just below the ‘high risk’ category, taken together they add up to a severe risk without your being classified as such.)

Unfortunately you are trying to preach to a very Anti Lockdown forum. As a Blood Cancer sufferer my own view is that Masks should have been retained for Public Transport and Shops are these are essentials for many people, fortunately for me I don't have to use Public Transport and get my shopping delivered, but for some highly vulnerable people it may be more difficult.

For Hospitality you can argue its not essential and people can choose to go or not, although some might argue that from mental health viewpoint it is, I did venture for a pub meal outside the other day, but with the impending free for all I will go back to semi shielding while cases are on the rise, I will still have go to work as don't really have much option.

As far as masks go I have worn N95/FFP2 masks since the start of the pandemic, I would have preferred N99/FFP3 Masks but they were difficult to get hold of at the height of the pandemic, anyway given the impending free for all I have just ordered a load of FFP3 Masks.

Given I have to visit medical establishments a lot I certainly hope that Masks and Social Distancing will be retained in these in environments if not they will certainly be getting complaints from me.

 

[westv]

Unfortunately you are trying to preach to a very Anti Lockdown forum. As a Blood Cancer sufferer my own view is that Masks should have been retained for Public Transport and Shops are these are essentials for many people, fortunately for me I don't have to use Public Transport and get my shopping delivered, but for some highly vulnerable people it may be more difficult.

For Hospitality you can argue its not essential and people can choose to go or not, although some might argue that from mental health viewpoint it is, I did venture for a pub meal outside the other day, but with the impending free for all I will go back to semi shielding while cases are on the rise, I will still have go to work as don't really have much option.

As far as masks go I have worn N95/FFP2 masks since the start of the pandemic, I would have preferred N99/FFP3 Masks but they were difficult to get hold of at the height of the pandemic, anyway given the impending free for all I have just ordered a load of FFP3 Masks.

Given I have to visit medical establishments a lot I certainly hope that Masks and Social Distancing will be retained in these in environments if not they will certainly be getting complaints from me.

Given that you should have already been offered two vaccine shots, what would you have wanted to see before the mask mandate was repealed?

 

[yorkie]

Bull****. I suggest you read about Long Covid and it’s impacts on physical and mental well-being. This is on the NHS website page regarding LC...

Nothing you quoted me as saying there is inaccurate. Which part of what I said do you claim is inaccurate?

As for the effects on mental health, I suggest you read about how restrictions have affected mental health, particularly in young people. The effects have been devastating. We owe it to the younger generation to release restrictions. You said you are not in favour of prolonging restrictions, so if you are in agreement with me, what is the problem?

I personally know three people in the sub-40 age group who have suffered / are suffering from Long Covid combined with an underlying health condition.

Post-viral fatigue syndrome is going to be much less common going forward, given the huge levels of population immunity we are building up; this is no longer a novel virus in an immunologically naive population.

One individual is Head of Music in a West Midlands secondary school; they are understandably ‘overjoyed’ that mask restrictions are being removed.

What difference is it going to make to them that the mask mandate is being lifted?

Edit - just to add, its not possible to teach a class wearing an FFP3 mask, before anyone wonders.

No-one should be wearing masks in any lessons, nor is this part of any restrictions at present, so I don't understand what point you are making.

Unfortunately you are trying to preach to a very Anti Lockdown forum.

It is quite right that people are expresing views that are in line with the majority of society; you only have to look at any town centre to see most people want to go back to normal. You may deem it "unfortunate" but that's your problem.

As a Blood Cancer sufferer my own view is that Masks should have been retained for Public Transport and Shops are these are essentials for many people, fortunately for me I don't have to use Public Transport and get my shopping delivered, but for some highly vulnerable people it may be more difficult.

If you want extra reassurance, wear an FFP3 mask, rather than desire a mandate compelling others to wear ineffective masks. Your argument does not hold water.

For Hospitality you can argue its not essential and people can choose to go or not, although some might argue that from mental health viewpoint it is, I did venture for a pub meal outside the other day, but with the impending free for all I will go back to semi shielding while cases are on the rise, I will still have go to work as don't really have much option.

As far as masks go I have worn N95/FFP2 masks since the start of the pandemic, I would have preferred N99/FFP3 Masks but they were difficult to get hold of at the height of the pandemic, anyway given the impending free for all I have just ordered a load of FFP3 Masks.

So problem solved; you no longer need to be concerned over what others are or aren't wearing.

Given I have to visit medical establishments a lot I certainly hope that Masks and Social Distancing will be retained in these in environments if not they will certainly be getting complaints from me.

Are you saying that you do not believe vaccines and FFP3 masks are effective? You are fully vaccinated, wearing an FFP3 mask, and yet still want to demand others wear masks?

It sounds like this is about exerting control, not following any sort of science.

Your argument makes no sense.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Bull****. I suggest you read about Long Covid and it’s impacts on physical and mental well-being. This is on the NHS website page regarding LC;

Long COVID

Find out about long COVID, including the symptoms, how it's diagnosed, and the treatment and support available.

www.nhs.uk

I personally know three people in the sub-40 age group who have suffered / are suffering from Long Covid combined with an underlying health condition. One individual is Head of Music in a West Midlands secondary school; they are understandably ‘overjoyed’ that mask restrictions are being removed.

Edit - just to add, its not possible to teach a class wearing an FFP3 mask, before anyone wonders.

That sounds horrible. But it has to be balanced against other costs. The proportion of people suffering symptoms of depression has more than doubled since before last March - it is now over one third of young adults and almost half of young women. I've personally had my mental health utterly destroyed by restrictions and I'd rather take the risk of Long Covid than live like this even one month more. And most people I talk to my age agree.

In an ideal world, we'd be able to give everyone a second dose before reopening. Like you, I would feel more comfortable if I had both doses before things fully opened up. But I don't think the other costs of restrictions can be ignored any longer.

 

[yorkie]

That sounds horrible. But it has to be balanced against other costs. The proportion of people suffering symptoms of depression has more than doubled since before last March - it is now over one third of young adults and almost half of young women. I've personally had by mental health utterly destroyed by restrictions and I'd rather take the risk of Long Covid than live like this even one month more. And most people I talk to my age agree.

In an ideal world, we'd be able to give everyone a second dose before reopening. Like you, I would feel more comfortable if I had both doses before things fully opened up. But I don't think the other costs of restrictions can be ignored any longer.

I understand what young people like you are going through, but the authoritarians just aren't interested.

But the good news is that they've lost the argument; from the 19th of July we will be free, and there is nothing they can do to stop that. So I hope that you can feel much better in this knowledge.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

The mental health argument can be made either way. There is an equal argument that anxiety and stress caused by opening everything up too soon will have a similar effect - the risk is that groups of people may develop phobias of being outside or around people. There has long been such a phenomenon in Japan (although not caused by Covid worry) that sees people effectively becoming hermits in their own bedrooms / houses and ceasing to engage with society.

The problem here is everything is being seen as so BINARY. I’m as hopeful that restrictions will be lifted as anyone else - including Yorkie! - but there is no joy in the prospect of it being done too soon. If cases surge enough then hospitalisations and deaths will again rise, and this time it will be the younger age groups in at risk categories. Deny it all you want, but if 19th July proves to be too early when projected against the overall vaccination position, then the facts will bear me out. (I hope not.)

 

[londonteacher]

No-one should be wearing masks in any lessons

Technically the guidance says that there is no need and it down to the choice of individuals. I know for myself I can wear a mask (I don't though as in my bubble there is no need to) as can the children if we so wish. There are no rules saying that people shouldn't.

 

[yorkie]

The mental health argument can be made either way....

Except the vast majority of people who I know, and who know people I know, have been disproportionately adversely affected due to the loss of either livelihoods or social activities etc caused by restrictions.

Post-viral fatigue syndrome is real but it is probably overstated.

There is an equal argument that anxiety and stress caused by opening everything up too soon will have a similar effect

I strongly disagree; I know of many people who feel anxiety and stress at the thought of restrictions continuing.

I really don't understand what your argument is; you said earlier that you were not in favour of extending restrictions, yet you talk as if you are. Which is it?

- the risk is that groups of people may develop phobias of being outside or around people.

Indeed; this is a failing of Government and media messaging and fearmongering on social media, forums etc.

There has long been such a phenomenon in Japan (although not caused by Covid worry) that sees people effectively becoming hermits in their own bedrooms / houses and ceasing to engage with society.

I completely agree this is a huge concern and backs up my argument entirely.

The problem here is everything is being seen as so BINARY. I’m as hopeful that restrictions will be lifted as anyone else - including Yorkie! - but there is no joy in the prospect of it being done too soon. If cases surge enough then hospitalisations and deaths will again rise, and this time it will be the younger age groups in at risk categories. Deny it all you want, but if 19th July proves to be too early when projected against the overall vaccination position, then the facts will bear me out. (I hope not.)

I clearly have much more faith in the vaccines than you do. I don't know who you've been listening to, but I would ask that you think carefully before further spreading such fearmongering predictions as some people may actually believe you.

Technically the guidance says that there is no need and it down to the choice of individuals. I know for myself I can wear a mask (I don't though as in my bubble there is no need to) as can the children if we so wish. There are no rules saying that people shouldn't.

No there is no rule, but if any of the children rely on any degree of lip-reading then clearly you shouldn't.

Similarly it's not good for the children's wellbeing if you are unable to gauge their feelings, emotions etc.

In my experience the proportion of children who choose to wear masks in lessons is very minimal. I suspect that many of this small minority who do have been mislead by a trusted adult, sadly.

 

[43066]

All else aside I will be glad of the opportunity to reclaim the sunflower lanyard. It was not intended to be a mask exemption indicator and it has been stolen for that purpose. It will now take a lot of educating to get back to what it was actually intended to do.

Actually, re. the sunflower lanyard, I think the exact opposite! A great many more people are now aware that it signifies some kind of difference from the norm, whereas prior to Covid most people had never heard of it. If anything that increased awareness should make life easier for those who do have hidden disabilities going forward.

The mistake some people (including many train guards sadly!) have made over the last few months is assuming that *everyone* who is exempt must have a “medical exemption”, or a hidden disability, which of course doesn’t necessarily follow (albeit there will be a significant overlap of exemption with hidden disabilities and medical conditions).

That sounds horrible. But it has to be balanced against other costs. The proportion of people suffering symptoms of depression has more than doubled since before last March - it is now over one third of young adults and almost half of young women. I've personally had by mental health utterly destroyed by restrictions and I'd rather take the risk of Long Covid than live like this even one month more. And most people I talk to my age agree.

In an ideal world, we'd be able to give everyone a second dose before reopening. Like you, I would feel more comfortable if I had both doses before things fully opened up. But I don't think the other costs of restrictions can be ignored any longer.

Sorry to hear that and hopefully these latest developments will mark a turning point for you. I completely agree: the balance has been skewed in one direction for far too long, mostly due to media fear mongering and the inability of the general public to assess risk.

 

[AlterEgo]

I defined my comfort level, nothing more. I don’t see anything in the scientific data that indicates 19th July 2021 as a specifically appropriate / significant date for opening up our collective immune systems to the virus. If one was actually following the science, you’d identify the date at which the adult population is fully vaccinated, which will be late August.

What is scientific about that? The easing is based on a balancing of risk against having a worthwhile and fulfilling experience of life, which is not a science. You could say "oh well vaccinations aren't totally effective, when everyone has had both shots you'll still need precautions" which would again be a balancing of risk. How much weight you give to each risk is a philosophical question and not a scientific one.

Clearly, people saying "hey if you feel at risk stay home!" are prioritising your safety, but perhaps not your wellbeing or flourishing as an adult, which I'd argue you're as much entitled to as your safety.

 

[43066]

If cases surge enough then hospitalisations and deaths will again rise, and this time it will be the younger age groups in at risk categories.

Yes, cases will rise, and more deaths and hospitalisation will follow (albeit at a much more favourable ratio now than in previous waves). It’s unfortunate that a high % of the population still seem to believe elimination is both possible and what is intended. Hopefully the government’s more honest messaging will gradually change that.

 

[Dent]

If one was actually following the science, you’d identify the date at which the adult population is fully vaccinated, which will be late August.

First of all, "following the science" is an empty catchphrase. There is no single, consistent and unambiguous concept of "the science".

Secondly, delaying the opening until so late in the year would push the exit wave into winter, when the health service is already under strain.

Thirdly, the summer is the peak holiday season, as well as the peak season for most of the hospitality industry. Delaying opening until late August would leave hardly any time for families to take a holiday before schools resume, and hardly any time for the hospitality industry to do any business at a time when they desperately need to recover from the devastation they have already suffered.

 

[AlterEgo]

The mental health argument can be made either way.

Yes, I feel it should cost a £5 fee to bring the Mental Health Card into any discussion, because it invariably stifles discussion and as you say can be made either way. Anxiety of getting sick, anxiety of no restrictions. Makes no difference to be honest - the key question is how much longer should many people live a poor facsimilie of their former life in order to provide physical safety for people who are at risk not just of COVID but a myriad of other things too.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Except the vast majority of people who I know, and who know people I know, have been disproportionately adversely affected due to the loss of either livelihoods or social activities etc caused by restrictions.

We know different people. Neither of us knows ALL people in the UK. Our perceptions are based on the small bubble that surrounds us, ergo your assessment that my view is incorrect is unsupported.

Post-viral fatigue syndrome is real but it is probably overstated.

On what basis? Or is this just your perception again, based on your personal experience.

I strongly disagree; I know of many people who feel anxiety and stress at the thought of restrictions continuing.

Again, this is your view of your limited bubble. My view is of mine. Both can be correct.

I really don't understand what your argument is; you said earlier that you were not in favour of extending restrictions, yet you talk as if you are. Which is it?

As I’ve already stated twice now, I’m not against lifting the last tranche of restrictions at the appropriate time. I don’t believe 19th July to be the appropriate time. How hard is it to understand?

I completely agree this is a huge concern and backs up my argument entirely.

Not if reason for people feeling unable to go outside is because of a perception that the gung-ho approach to public health puts them at risk - this sort of worry can lead to long-term irrational behaviour of the type I mentioned, fear of the outside etc.

I clearly have much more faith in the vaccines than you do. I don't know who you've been listening to, but I would ask that you think carefully before further spreading such fearmongering predictions as some people may actually believe you.

Again you’re misquoting me - I have no doubt that the majority of people who are fully vaccinated are well protected. I’m talking about the proportion of people who are not yet fully vaccinated, yet expected to go back to workplaces, commute on busy public transport, etc, and have underlying conditions that amplify the risks to their health.

 

[yorkie]

First of all, "following the science" is an empty catchphrase. There is no single, consistent and unambiguous concept of "the science".

Secondly, delaying the opening until so late in the year would push the exit wave into winter, when the health service is already under strain.

Thirdly, the summer is the peak holiday season, as well as the peak season for most of the hospitality industry. Delaying opening until late August would leave hardly any time for families to take a holiday before schools resume, and hardly any time for the hospitality industry to do any business at a time when they desperately need to recover from the devastation they have already suffered.

Very eloquently put; I know many people who feel this way but you said it perfectly and concisely.

.... as you say can be made either way...

Indeed it can.

Though I'd argue that @Wilts Wanderer 's attempt to 'equate' anxiety and stress of those who fear a surge of hospitalisations and deaths (despite having effective vaccines; clearly our vaccine messaging is failing, but that's another story ) with the anxiety and stress of those who are suffering due to restrictions to be a huge misunderstanding of what is actually going on with many people, especially young people.

Young people are now totally accustomed to being told "we can't let you have fun, because of Covid"; many of them politely and patiently put up with it, but the effects on some are absolutely devastating, yet do not appear to be taken into account whatsoever in any of the posts made by @Wilts Wanderer. I see this on a regular basis, so I am going to make sure the interests of young people in particular are expressed.

I regularly get asked questions such as "When will be able to...?"

We know different people. Neither of us knows ALL people in the UK. Our perceptions are based on the small bubble that surrounds us, ergo your assessment that my view is incorrect is unsupported.

Speak for yourself; I am not in a "small bubble". Quite the opposite in fact.

On what basis? Or is this just your perception again, based on your personal experience.

You are the one who introduced this to the discussion, so the onus is on you to demonstrate the scale of the issue, but I will point out it's only really relevant what the impact will be going forward in a population with a high degree of immunity.

Again, this is your view of your limited bubble. My view is of mine. Both can be correct.

As I've stated, you can speak for yourself being in a limited bubble. I am in many "bubbles", some of which are actually quite large.

As I’ve already stated twice now, I’m not against lifting the last tranche of restrictions at the appropriate time. I don’t believe 19th July to be the appropriate time. How hard is it to understand?

Then why do you continue to appear to disagree with me?

Not if reason for people feeling unable to go outside is because of a perception that the gung-ho approach to public health puts them at risk - this sort of worry can lead to long-term irrational behaviour of the type I mentioned, fear of the outside etc.

It's not a gung-ho approach; why would anyone who believes in the vaccines think that? Unless you are suggesting the vaccines aren't effective? If you agree the vaccines are effective, I don't see how you can possibly say that.

Again you’re misquoting me

I am not.

I have no doubt that the majority of people who are fully vaccinated are well protected. I’m talking about the proportion of people who are not yet fully vaccinated, yet expected to go back to workplaces, commute on busy public transport, etc, and have underlying conditions that amplify the risks to their health.

What do you suggest then?

And how many people do you think are "not yet fully vaccinated" and "have underlying conditions"?

 

[AJW12]

Bull****. I suggest you read about Long Covid and it’s impacts on physical and mental well-being. This is on the NHS website page regarding LC;

Long COVID

Find out about long COVID, including the symptoms, how it's diagnosed, and the treatment and support available.

www.nhs.uk

I personally know three people in the sub-40 age group who have suffered / are suffering from Long Covid combined with an underlying health condition. One individual is Head of Music in a West Midlands secondary school; they are understandably ‘overjoyed’ that mask restrictions are being removed.

Edit - just to add, its not possible to teach a class wearing an FFP3 mask, before anyone wonders.

Get a little bit irritated when people are now resorting to the Long Covid argument now to justify prolonged intervention in our personal lives because they're beginning to lose ground on deaths, hospitalisations etc. now the vaccine programme has delivered.

I'm not denying it exists or that it gets some people really badly; just like the virus, I completely get it; it takes some people down big time and some people have really struggled in their recovery.

However, as someone who is 25 and has had covid a couple of months ago - like anyone I know in my demographic group, I have not experienced any long-term symptoms since I recovered from the virus (and by recovered I mean I waited 10 days for my blocked nose to go away whilst getting very bored). I caught covid whilst I was travelling round the UK for a few days; I might not have asked to get the virus, but I have always been very much aware that I could catch it, and that it did have the potential to make me ill, and that I could've experienced symptoms long term. I didn't (thankfully) and I would make the same decision to go out there and live my life, and accept a risk of the virus (I should make clear that I did isolate entirely once I tested positive, and took all the steps to ensuring I didn't give the virus to someone else). I spent months in lockdown last year, and the same this year whilst my parents and grandparents waited for their vaccines; I don't want government intervention to stop me getting the virus. There's online shopping, I could've continued working from home, FFP3 masks etc. if I wanted to avoid any exposure.

Furthermore, "long covid" isn't one thing, it's an assortment of several different health conditions that the body can experience due to the virus. Post-viral fatigue is nothing new. Understand there are people still very fearful but as a general rule, emotions like fear aren't good for mental or physical health. The vaccines are excellent and if you have had both shots, or had the virus, you have the best immune/antibody response you are likely ever going to have.

 

[43066]

As I’ve already stated twice now, I’m not against lifting the last tranche of restrictions at the appropriate time. I don’t believe 19th July to be the appropriate time. How hard is it to understand?

But the modelling as reported today suggests a “sweet spot” of releasing restrictions now versus continuing them until all adults have had two jabs and releasing in the winter (which might lead to more deaths overall). This is based on the findings Imperial College (whose modelling gave rise to locking down last year) and Chris Whitty, so if you’re taking a strictly “follow the science” approach, surely you must agree with this?!

Unless you’re saying you want restrictions to remain in perpetuity?!

 

[37424]

It is quite right that people are expresing views that are in line with the majority of society; you only have to look at any town centre to see most people want to go back to normal. You may deem it "unfortunate" but that's your problem.


If you want extra reassurance, wear an FFP3 mask, rather than desire a mandate compelling others to wear ineffective masks. Your argument does not hold water.

So problem solved; you no longer need to be concerned over what others are or aren't wearing.

Are you saying that you do not believe vaccines and FFP3 masks are effective? You are fully vaccinated, wearing an FFP3 mask, and yet still want to demand others wear masks?

It sounds like this is about exerting control, not following any sort of science.

Your argument makes no sense.

Yes I am fully vaccinated by my body's antibody response to covid may not be that good, In fact the initial advice I had was not to get the vaccine at all because it wouldn't work with my current treatment regime that was later changed to that it might offer some benefit. Yes there is some evidence that FFP3 offer better protection, but is there not evidence that everybody wearing even basic face masks offers some protection. Did you try and get hold of an FFP3 face mask at the height of the pandemic they seemed to virtually unavailable to non medical staff, and given the benefits of FFP3 are now being highlighted that situation may arise again.

Just because the majority on this forum are anti lockdown and you are very anti lockdown its a massive assumption on your part to assume that's the majority view in the country, certainly everyone I have spoken to tonight except this forum are uneasy at stopping all restrictions, and OK there were thousands at Anti Lockdown rallies but then again the country has a population of 68 million.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I’m going to quit this conversation now, the number of misquotes and strawman arguments appearing is really quite pathetic. Next time I’ll remember any view on the subject needs to specifically reference young people, the exact timescale I think Covid mitigations should remain in place, the exact number of people that I know (and my definition of ‘bubble’, i.e. the couple of hundred-odd people I know!), any scientific posts that I’ve read to back up my personal views and presumably my professional qualifications and religious beliefs? Seriously, FFS.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2021 ==

Yes I am fully vaccinated by my body's antibody response to covid may not be that good, In fact the initial advice I had was not to get the vaccine at all because it wouldn't work with my current treatment regime that was later changed to that it might offer some benefit. Yes there is some evidence that FFP3 offer better protection, but is there not evidence that everybody wearing even basic face masks offers some protection. Did you try and get hold of an FFP3 face mask at the height of the pandemic they seemed to virtually unavailable to non medical staff, and given the benefits of FFP3 are now being highlighted that situation may arise again.

Just because the majority on this forum are anti lockdown and you are very anti lockdown its a massive assumption on your part to assume that's the majority view in the country, certainly everyone I have spoken to tonight except this forum are uneasy at stopping all restrictions, and OK there were thousands at Anti Lockdown rallies but then again the country has a population of 68 million.

+1

 

[yorkie]

Yes I am fully vaccinated by my body's antibody response to covid may not be that good, In fact the initial advice I had was not to get the vaccine at all because it wouldn't work with my current treatment regime that was later changed to that it might offer some benefit.

The T-cell response is often cited as likely to be more important than the antibody response. If you're immunocompromised, then the same arguments can equally be applied with other viruses, such as rhinoviruses, other coronaviruses etc. So, what solution do you suggest?

Yes there is some evidence that FFP3 offer better protection....

This is a huge understatement. An FFP3 mask is specifically designed to protect from virus particles and they are highly effective at doing so.

but is there not evidence that everybody wearing even basic face masks offers some protection.

I find it curious that you are very keen to big up the effectiveness of ineffective masks that are not designed to protect against viruses, yet simultaneously understate the effectiveness of masks that are, and just days after a study revealed that the proper masks are highly effective, whereas standard masks are not.

I'm curious to understand what motivates you to say this?

Did you try and get hold of an FFP3 face mask at the height of the pandemic they seemed to virtually unavailable to non medical staff, and given the benefits of FFP3 are now being highlighted that situation may arise again.

We are talking about mask going forward, not a year ago. That's an entirely separate argument.

Just because the majority on this forum are anti lockdown and you are very anti lockdown its a massive assumption on your part to assume that's the majority view in the country, certainly everyone I have spoken to tonight except this forum are uneasy at stopping all restrictions, and OK there were thousands at Anti Lockdown rallies but then again the country has a population of 68 million.

I doubt you speak to a wide cross section of society. I'd be curious to learn many people you spoke to tonight and what age profile are they?

 

[AJW12]

As I’ve already stated twice now, I’m not against lifting the last tranche of restrictions at the appropriate time. I don’t believe 19th July to be the appropriate time. How hard is it to understand?

Would be interested to know when you thought the right time would be then? (Genuinely curious). We're half way through Summer now, where viruses like this one have a lower risk. As per Chris Whitty's thoughts today; if we can't learn to live a normal life with this virus during a Summer, when can we? I doubt we'll ever get 100% of the population jabbed, even if we aimed for it (it's not been approved for children below teenage age and the take-up amongst children will not be as high)

Also a bit unsure at the cost/benefit of keeping what we have in place now (where the government is still covering millions of people's salaries and many businesses are unable to open properly, or open at all), given the case numbers are rapidly increasing anyway. If there was some tangible data that said staying in our current state would keep case numbers level for a while longer, I'd be tempted to listen but they're not under control, they're not going to be under control.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

https://twitter.com/bloodcancer_uk/status/1412093670820651011?s=21

1/ Many of you will be concerned about what this evening’s announcement that restrictions in England will be lifted on July 19 means for you.

People with blood cancer are unlikely to have got as much protection from the vaccines as people without cancer, and so many of them will be worried about whether lifting restrictions is sensible at a time when the infection rate is rising.

Lots of you have also told us it’s been great to start getting back to normal over the last couple of months, whether that’s been going shopping or meeting friends outdoors or at outdoor seating at pubs and cafes.

4/ The reason many of you have felt able to do this is that the people around you have been keeping their distance and wearing masks. If people aren’t doing these after the rules are lifted, then July 19 won’t be freedom day for some people with blood cancer in England.

5/ It will be the day that it feels like freedoms are being taken away from them. We know the next few weeks will be difficult for lots of people in our community. We want to do everything we can to support you through it.

This is the Blood Cancer UK post on Twitter today

 

[yorkie]

This is the Blood Cancer UK post on Twitter today

They are effectively calling for endless lockdowns, as the virus is endemic and cases are inevitably going to rise whenever we unlock.

If we stayed restricted throughout the summer, there is no way they'd then accept reopening in the autumn or winter!

Their argument doesn't hold water.

We have to live with Sars-CoV-2, the fifth endemic human Coronavirus. It cannot be eliminated.

 

[43066]

https://twitter.com/bloodcancer_uk/status/1412093670820651011?s=21

This is the Blood Cancer UK post on Twitter today

But we cannot continue to lock down all of society to protect a tiny minority of people with a particular condition, who sadly happen to be at a unusually high risk from Covid, unless you’re proposing we should never ease restrictions!?

 

[37424]

The T-cell response is often cited as likely to be more important than the antibody response. If you're immunocompromised, then the same arguments can equally be applied with other viruses, such as rhinoviruses, other coronaviruses etc. So, what solution do you suggest?



This is a huge understatement. An FFP3 mask is specifically designed to protect from virus particles and they are highly effective at doing so.



I find it curious that you are very keen to big up the effectiveness of ineffective masks that are not designed to protect against viruses, yet simultaneously understate the effectiveness of masks that are, and just days after a study revealed that the proper masks are highly effective, whereas standard masks are not.

I'm curious to understand what motivates you to say this?


We are talking about mask going forward, not a year ago. That's an entirely separate argument.


I doubt you speak to a wide cross section of society. I'd be curious to learn many people you spoke to tonight and what age profile are they?

Well I know you seem to think you are a world expert on all things covid but I will take my advice from the team of consultants looking after me. Yes potentially I am at risk from other virus of course, but then at least my body will have been exposed to some of these other viruses over the years unlike covid.

As for a solution well yes for me its difficult covid is a potential nightmare for immunosuppressed people. My solution would be to keep current restrictions until the adult population is fully vaccinated and I wouldn't get rid of all restrictions until infection numbers start dropping. But it would seem to me now that the government is effectively now going for the herd immunity approach I guess we will see how that plays out given that was your desired approach even before we had a vaccine.

Frankly you are trying to twist my words regarding types of masks to suit your agenda yes we know FFFP3 are better but I'm not sure they are the miracle mask you make out in order to justify the removal of face masks for most people.

The age profile I have spoken tonight ranges from 26 to 60, maybe I don't speak for a wide cross section of society but I doubt you do either.

Also if you are confident that your view on this is the correct one, why do constantly try and discourage anyone with an opposite view from posting on this subject rather than having and open debate.

 

[Cdd89]

Even ignoring the public health arguments, mask requirements are a blunt instrument.

They can only be enforced by police intimidation and attempts to judge the credibility of claimed exemptions, which based on FPN statistics is known to be biased against minorities. For many this risk, plus the social anxiety, results in the exempt not feeling confident in exercising their exemption.

They also take no account of contextual risk. It makes no sense to wear a mask in a nearly empty train carriage but the law perceives no difference.

Both of the above problems could be solved immediately by making the things subject to guidance and social/personal responsibility.

Obviously more people wearing masks of any sort increases safety by some amount; even if in the case of cloth face coverings that amount is minimal. But safety should not be our only concern, even if the arguments in favour of retaining mandatory masks attempt to suggest safety trumps everything else.

 

[Furrball]

Meanwhile - on the subject of blunt instruments...

Policing Bill: MPs vote for ‘draconian’ protest laws despite mounting opposition​

MPs vote for ‘draconian’ protest laws despite mounting opposition

Bid to remove protest powers from bill voted down

www.independent.co.uk

MPs have voted for “draconian” protest laws in spite of mounting warnings over human rights and questions over whether police want or need the powers.

A bill backed by the House of Commons would allow police to impose restrictions on protests based on noise and ban demonstrations by a single person.

It would also create a criminal offence of “public nuisance”, lower the bar for prosecuting people who violate conditions and increase maximum prison sentences to a year.

 

[yorkie]

Well I know you seem to think you are a world expert on all things covid

I'm not a world expert as such; I just listen to and read the views of experts.

If you find I've said something that's inaccurate, feel free to correct me...

but I will take my advice from the team of consultants looking after me.

You should do what is best for you, but this shouldn't extend to dictating what others can or can't do.

Yes potentially I am at risk from other virus of course, but then at least my body will have been exposed to some of these other viruses over the years unlike covid.

This really doesn't make sense.

Natural immunity works in a similar way to vaccine induced immunity; in both cases your body learns how to fight a virus (in this case, Sars-CoV-2) and your immune system 'remembers' how to fight any such virus through memory B & T cells.

Are you suggesting that vaccine induced immunity is inferior, or are you saying something else? If so, what are you saying and do you have any sources to back up your claims?

As for a solution well yes for me its difficult covid is a potential nightmare for immunosuppressed people. My solution would be to keep current restrictions until the adult population is fully vaccinated and I wouldn't get rid of all restrictions until infection numbers start dropping.

OK so the solution is for others to be restricted.

Sorry but I reject this, and I refer you to posts by myself and others above, which raise points you have not addressed.

But it would seem to me now that the government is effectively now going for the herd immunity approach I guess we will see how that plays out given that was your desired approach even before we had a vaccine.

Herd immunity is a naturally occurring phenomenon; it is not an "approach". I'd also like to understand what you mean by this term, as people use it to mean different things, so it's not clear unless you clarify.

Do you actually mean reach seasonal endemic equilibrium, as we have with similar betacoronaviruses, such as OC43, or do you mean something else?

Frankly you are trying to twist my words regarding types of masks to suit your agenda

What you said is clear for all to see.

yes we know FFFP3 are better but I'm not sure they are the miracle mask you make out in order to justify the removal of face masks for most people.

Did you read the article I linked to? If you disagree with it, what aspects do you disagree with, and why?

The age profile I have spoken tonight ranges from 26 to 60, maybe I don't speak for a wide cross section of society but I doubt you do either.

I'd be curious to learn how many people you spoke to and in what setting as I find it difficult to believe that many people from a wide cross section of society would unanimously agree with you.

Also if you are confident that your view on this is the correct one

There is no singular correct view, but as I've said above, if you think I've said something incorrect, feel free to explain what is incorrect and how it is.

why do constantly try and discourage anyone with an opposite view from posting on this subject rather than having and open debate.

On the contrary, I've engaged with you and invited you to answer a wide range of questions in an open debate, but the answers to key questions are so far rather lacking. Hopefully you will address my questions in this post as I'd be interested to read your answers.

In summary, the key questions in this post are:

1. Why do you think you have good immunity against viruses you have been previously infected with, but not against viruses you have been vaccinated against?
2. What do you mean by the term "herd immunity" exactly, and why do you appear to think that achieving such an outcome is a negative thing?
3. Have you read the article I linked to relating to the effectiveness of FFP3 vs standard masks, and what are your thoughts on this matter? If you disagree with the published conclusions, why is this so, and do you have any evidence to the contrary?
4. You say you spoke to people who agreed with you last night; are you able to elaborate on roughly what this setting was, and how many people were part of this group? Do you think this group is representative of the wider population, and if so, what attributes does this group have that indicate this could be the case?