COVID-19: School Closures

[The Ham]

As a uni student myself, I think that this would be a terrible idea if implemented across the board for all students. If we're being real, part of the attraction of university for the school leavers is potentially living away from home (in halls or other accommodation), meeting new people, clubbing etc. It's been part of the university life for decades. Whilst that may be temporarily paused just now, it cannot be a long-term measure otherwise numbers will probably decrease. One would also pick up a lot of life skills at university, but that just doesn't happen if doing it through a computer screen and likely from their bedroom.

This would also be far more complicated for the uni staff. They are busy as it is - some of them teach several hours of classes in a row whilst others are in the research field so they wouldn't have the time to be doing Q&A's afterwards. Recording lectures could also potentially be time consuming.

Finally, it would be a total waste of campus space.

I may not have been clear, the suggestion was that it was something which was done primarily for students from overseas.

That said it could be useful for mature students and for some modules for everyone.

Whilst recording lectures would be time consuming to do initially over time it could reduce the amount of time which staff spend lecturing. In that rather than lecturing for (say) an hour they could do a 30 minute Q&A, freeing up time to then do other stuff.

As an example current timetable:
09:00 - 10:00 - first year lecture a
10:00 - 11:00 - second year lecture a
11:00 - 12:00 - third year lecture a
13:00 - 14:00 - first year lecture b
14:00- 15:00 - second year lecture b
15:00- 16:00 - third year lecture c
16:00 - 16:30 - admin
16:30 - 17:30 - research

Future timetable:
09:00 - 9:50 - admin
09:50 - 10:30 - Q&A first year a
10:40 - 11:10 - Q&A second year a
11:15 - 1145 - Q&A third year a
11:50 - 12:30 - Q&A first year b
13:30 - 14-10 - Q&A second year b
14:15 - 1455 - Q&A third year c
15:00 - 17:30 - research

Therefore by having 45 minutes set for a 30 minute period of Q&A (5 minute break between, 10 minutes to review questions which have been asked during the online lecture & 30 minutes of contact time) that provides then with an extra 1:30 of research time on that day which they otherwise wouldn't have.

They also have time between Q&A's to go to the loo, grab a coffee, look at emails, etc. Which they wouldn't have had before.

Now that's an extreme example of what could happen (assuming full change over to online lectures), however it does show that it frees up their time. They can also decide which questions to answer in which order and so could have a (say) 10 minute section for answers which go beyond what's needed to pass the course, with titbits and testers of what to expect in future years and in other modules.

From a student's side they have the flexibility to watch the 60 minutes of lectures when they like, as long as they have done so by the time of the Q&A. They also can not attend the Q&A if they so wish. However at the very least they could drop out of the Q&A when the lecturer started on the stuff which wasn't needed for the course.

Clearly a reduction in use of lecture theatres would result in a need to look at it that asset could be used in other ways. However with a new normal it could result in campuses changing how they look over time (i.e. as there's redevelopment the number of lecture theaters are reduced and replaced with other facilities).

One thing which could change, is that with fewer foreign students in any given academic year it would be possible to provide university accommodation to more of the students rather than them having to live throughout the city. This could result in fewer student areas within cities and the problems that can cause. It would also free up more houses for more general living, reducing the need to build quite so many new houses.

If we assume that out of 10,000 students that 3,000 are foreign students, with therefore only 1,000 being at university for their final year. That frees up 2,000 university halls spaces for others to use. Putting (say) 400 homes back into the general housing stock. Repeat that over 50 universities (there's 106, so a not unreasonable number work to, it also results in an assumption of a total of 150,000 foreign students, when the actual number is about 450,000) and you bring 20,000 homes back into general use.

That's enough to reduce the house building target by 1% for a 10 year period. Which may not sound much, but does ease the pressure on the housing market. Again not by much, but probably enough to reduce house price inflation a little. Even doing so by 0.5% a year could result in house prices being £15,000 cheaper a 10 year period (assuming a £250,000 home increases in value by 2%/year compared to 2.5%/year).

 

[Bletchleyite]

My main worry isn't the clubbing aspect (I was speaking for students as a whole, I personally dislike it) but there is absolutely no way that I could work remotely. I need to be physically present to have any hope of getting things done. Working at home is a total distraction so if it does actually go remote, I'll probably suspend my studies.

Surely students mostly do e.g. project work from home - just a different home to that of their parents? Or do you do most work in the library, as I know some do?

 

[Scotrail12]

Surely students mostly do e.g. project work from home - just a different home to that of their parents? Or do you do most work in the library, as I know some do?

We should still be entitled to face to face contact hours. I can't do it without the discipline of being in. If they just put things online and let us do them when we wanted, it would be disastrous for me as I would end up not getting them done.

 

[Domh245]

I tended to do most of my uni work at home, but without going in to uni I've been really struggling to focus on it, although that's probably down to the whole change of circumstances as much as anything else. Also worth mentioning that there's plenty of stuff where you need to be on campus to use certain facilities - various software is only available on university computers and then there's physical labs (and books) as well.

 

[Scotrail12]

I tended to do most of my uni work at home, but without going in to uni I've been really struggling to focus on it, although that's probably down to the whole change of circumstances as much as anything else. Also worth mentioning that there's plenty of stuff where you need to be on campus to use certain facilities - various software is only available on university computers and then there's physical labs (and books) as well.

One thing I would add to what you said is that for many subjects, being physically present is necessary. I do French & Politics. They could possibly get away with Politics being done online but no way could French be done with a Q&A system as suggested. The speaking classes alone would never work like that. Same for sciences and labs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thing I would add to what you said is that for many subjects, being physically present is necessary. I do French & Politics. They could possibly get away with Politics being done online but no way could French be done with a Q&A system as suggested. The speaking classes alone would never work like that. Same for sciences and labs.

I can't see any reason why French couldn't be done via videoconference.

Science subjects you're right in a lot of cases, though you'd be surprised what the OU manages to achieve.

 

[Scotrail12]

I can't see any reason why French couldn't be done via videoconference.

A good chunk of the French course is speaking classes. If you aren't physically in the tutorial and speaking with others, how can you improve your speaking? It isn't logical.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A good chunk of the French course is speaking classes. If you aren't physically in the tutorial and speaking with others, how can you improve your speaking? It isn't logical.

You can speak with others on Zoom, Teams, Skype for Business etc, that's the whole point of them!

 

[underbank]

One thing which could change, is that with fewer foreign students in any given academic year it would be possible to provide university accommodation to more of the students rather than them having to live throughout the city. This could result in fewer student areas within cities and the problems that can cause. It would also free up more houses for more general living, reducing the need to build quite so many new houses.

If we assume that out of 10,000 students that 3,000 are foreign students, with therefore only 1,000 being at university for their final year. That frees up 2,000 university halls spaces for others to use. Putting (say) 400 homes back into the general housing stock. Repeat that over 50 universities (there's 106, so a not unreasonable number work to, it also results in an assumption of a total of 150,000 foreign students, when the actual number is about 450,000) and you bring 20,000 homes back into general use.

That's enough to reduce the house building target by 1% for a 10 year period. Which may not sound much, but does ease the pressure on the housing market. Again not by much, but probably enough to reduce house price inflation a little. Even doing so by 0.5% a year could result in house prices being £15,000 cheaper a 10 year period (assuming a £250,000 home increases in value by 2%/year compared to 2.5%/year).

There'll be fewer UK students too. My son was planning to go to Uni in September, but unless they're fully open as usual by then, he won't bother. For him, it was all about meeting new people, discovering a new city, learning to live independently etc. He's got no interest at all in distance learning and is already looking applying for "modern apprentice" jobs instead (accountancy). He's very disappointed as he's been looking forward to the uni experience for a few years now.

So I think your figures for reduced numbers of students "at" unis is likely to be under-estimated. I can envisage far fewer people wanting campus accommodation. Who knows whether that means more year 2/3/4 students stay on campus, or whether they continue to prefer living in the city and leaving campus accommodation empty - I can see arguments and preferences both ways.

As for a slight fall in house prices - I think any effect in suppressed demand from unis and student housing being put back into the market, will be pretty trivial in the big scheme of things. House prices are going to crash big time due to Covid - there'll be so many unemployed, so many businesses going bust, a complete collapse in economic confidence, etc.

I think the country may have solved it's housing shortage by default due to the long term effects of Covid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There'll be fewer UK students too. My son was planning to go to Uni in September, but unless they're fully open as usual by then, he won't bother. For him, it was all about meeting new people, discovering a new city, learning to live independently etc. He's got no interest at all in distance learning and is already looking applying for "modern apprentice" jobs instead (accountancy). He's very disappointed as he's been looking forward to the uni experience for a few years now.

Why not defer for a year, then, rather than writing off the possibility of the experience?

 

[underbank]

Why not defer for a year, then, rather than writing off the possibility of the experience?

Well yes, that is a possibility if either he doesn't get an training job or he doesn't like it. I suspect once he's in the workplace, he won't want to give it up and go back into full time education, especially if he gets into a decent firm with good prospects. He'll get his "social" experience and living independently from wherever he ends up working. There's going to be a lot of competition for apprentice/trainee jobs this Summer!

 

[kje7812]

I tended to do most of my uni work at home, but without going in to uni I've been really struggling to focus on it, although that's probably down to the whole change of circumstances as much as anything else. Also worth mentioning that there's plenty of stuff where you need to be on campus to use certain facilities - various software is only available on university computers and then there's physical labs (and books) as well.

Indeed, and in some places the software you are able to download on your own computer depends on whether you are an undergrad or a postgrad. When I was doing my MChem, Endnote was only available for Post-grad so I had to use Mendeley.

The uni which I'm doing my PhD at has announced that they are intending to start on time come September but will be using a 'Responsive Blended Learning Approach': a mixing of online and face-to-face. We'll see how well that works.

 

[6862]

The uni which I'm doing my PhD at has announced that they are intending to start on time come September but will be using a 'Responsive Blended Learning Approach': a mixing of online and face-to-face. We'll see how well that works.

Presumably this is referring to undergraduates starting? Any news on when postgraduates might be returning? My university hasn't given any indication of when either postgraduates or undergraduates might return.

 

[kje7812]

Presumably this is referring to undergraduates starting? Any news on when postgraduates might be returning? My university hasn't given any indication of when either postgraduates or undergraduates might return.

Yes that was aimed taught subjects. Not yet, we were discussing some of it at a group meeting over Teams this morning. For us it's chemistry and you can get away with 2 people in the lab and still be 2m away for most things. Arguably it's 2 or no-one as you need other people around for safety.
I suspect when the government lifts the lockdown, limited access will be allowed

 

[6862]

Yes that was aimed taught subjects. Not yet, we were discussing some of it at a group meeting over Teams this morning. For us it's chemistry and you can get away with 2 people in the lab and still be 2m away for most things. Arguably it's 2 or no-one as you need other people around for safety.
I suspect when the government lifts the lockdown, limited access will be allowed

I am in chemistry too - but we've not had any such discussion yet. Will be interesting to see if there is some sort of similar response across the country.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes that was aimed taught subjects. Not yet, we were discussing some of it at a group meeting over Teams this morning. For us it's chemistry and you can get away with 2 people in the lab and still be 2m away for most things. Arguably it's 2 or no-one as you need other people around for safety.
I suspect when the government lifts the lockdown, limited access will be allowed

Potentially via a booking system.

People here don't tend to like booking things in advance (I don't for my travel, particularly) but the advantage of booking systems is that you avoid queues, and queues are a spread vector.

 

[6862]

Potentially via a booking system.

People here don't tend to like booking things in advance (I don't for my travel, particularly) but the advantage of booking systems is that you avoid queues, and queues are a spread vector.

I suspect a shift system would be more practical, as we generally need to be in the lab at regular intervals (which would be difficult to achieve with a booking system), as the experiments we do often have to be left overnight. Either a shift system or 1 week on 1 week off would be my preference. I think with half the department out we could keep 2m separation quite easily. Anyway, all this is just speculation, I personally doubt my department will reopen any time soon.

 

[trebor79]

Distance learning is no substitute for the university experience. The social aspect, learning how to be an adult, quickly forge relationships and work with and alongside people you don't necessarily like personally are all valuable life skills. Then there's all the clubs, societies and other such activities to get involved in.
University is not just about learning academic stuff.

I went to uni as a very immature 18 year old. Whilst I was by no means fully formed when I emerged, I was a long way down to road to being a useful member of society. There's no point being well educated if you struggle to put it into practice.
Going to university expands your thinking and outlook in ways that I just don't think would be possible with a large amount of remote learning.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Distance learning is no substitute for the university experience. The social aspect, learning how to be an adult, quickly forge relationships and work with and alongside people you don't necessarily like personally are all valuable life skills. Then there's all the clubs, societies and other such activities to get involved in.
University is not just about learning academic stuff.

I went to uni as a very immature 18 year old. Whilst I was by no means fully formed when I emerged, I was a long way down to road to being a useful member of society. There's no point being well educated if you struggle to put it into practice.
Going to university expands your thinking and outlook in ways that I just don't think would be possible with a large amount of remote learning.

Yes, that happened for me too (but there are people who don't seem to need that). But we are where we are.

If you feel you're in a position where that would benefit you, it may be best to defer if you can.

 

[Meerkat]

Distance learning is no substitute for the university experience. The social aspect, learning how to be an adult, quickly forge relationships and work with and alongside people you don't necessarily like personally are all valuable life skills. Then there's all the clubs, societies and other such activities to get involved in.
University is not just about learning academic stuff.

Personally I think you can get all that from going out to work, and in work you will probably meet a more varied cross section of society.
Nothing stopping you moving in with your mates, and you can get up to more when you are getting paid!

 

[kje7812]

I am in chemistry too - but we've not had any such discussion yet. Will be interesting to see if there is some sort of similar response across the country.

Other countries seemed to have done that. I believe some places never shut.

I suspect a shift system would be more practical, as we generally need to be in the lab at regular intervals (which would be difficult to achieve with a booking system), as the experiments we do often have to be left overnight. Either a shift system or 1 week on 1 week off would be my preference. I think with half the department out we could keep 2m separation quite easily.

Especially with Schlenk line and glovebox work. One week in, one week out seems decent as some of our stuff I wouldn't like to leave to hang around. Also then the weekend acts as downtime.

 

[6862]

Especially with Schlenk line and glovebox work. One week in, one week out seems decent as some of our stuff I wouldn't like to leave to hang around.

Sounds like we're in a similar line of work!

 

[cuccir]

If I had to guess, I think unis will be looking next year to run lectures digtially, with other teaching in-person. You can't meaningfully run a chemsitry degree without labwork, a history degree without archival access, a geography degree without fieldwork, a languages degree without direct person-to-person communication, an art degree without kinasthetic elements of production, etc etc,.. even long-term distance learning organisations such as the Open University have delivered components of their teaching in-person, usually through summer shcools whihc would probably be just about the worst way in a pandemic!

So I think we'll see lectures delivered online, with other forms of teaching delivered in-person, making use of big lecutre theatres to facilitate social distancing where possible.

If I was a first year undergraduate, I'd be seriously considering the option of suspending my degree for a year if I could afford it.

 

[trebor79]

Personally I think you can get all that from going out to work, and in work you will probably meet a more varied cross section of society.
Nothing stopping you moving in with your mates, and you can get up to more when you are getting paid!

Big difference though. At university if you make mistakes or poor choices or behave like a dick you get feedback and support and opportunities to learn and improve.
Businesses and co-workers are far less tolerant and tend to fire people far more often than students get turfed out of university.

 

[Meerkat]

Big difference though. At university if you make mistakes or poor choices or behave like a dick you get feedback and support and opportunities to learn and improve.
Businesses and co-workers are far less tolerant and tend to fire people far more often than students get turfed out of university.

I wouldn’t bet on that last bit at all! I think SU Equalities bods would have a meltdown in most workplaces!

 

[The Ham]

I'm going to come back on a few points raised over the distance learning suggestion I made.

Firstly, and this is something which several people have overlooked, this was suggested primarily for the international students and not necessarily as a replacement for all students. Although I can see that there could be advantages if more content was online.

On the point of needing a specific time to have a lecture otherwise people wouldn't go, or might just "cram" in the last few weeks, this was why I suggested a Q&A session. As this would encourage people to have it viewed by that time. There could be other measures, such as online years and to have them only being available for a semester. Also it would be fairly obvious if people had miss missed the lectures at other contact times.

With the need to be able to use uni computers with specific software it would be better to have cloud based vertical computers which people can remote into. In doing so you could have 10 "computers" within a server cabinet rather than taking up a whole room. It would also allow that software to be used from any university computer, rather than a licence being permanently on a lab computer where the lab may not always be used for the reason for the software.

One of my children (in KS2) is learning French via Zoom through the after school club that they used to attend. They are all speaking French, if primary school aged children can do it I suspect that university students should be able to manage.

With regards to lab time, there's an argument that it could be possible to use the savings from the benefits from going more digital to allow longer opening hours for labs so that the expensive equipment can be used more.

Now of course, there would be challenges to going totally digital, however that's not what I was suggesting.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If people "cram" in the last few weeks is that a problem? Got me an OU degree doing that

 

[Meerkat]

If people "cram" in the last few weeks is that a problem? Got me an OU degree doing that

Got me every qualification I have doing that!

 

[HH]

Got me every qualification I have doing that!

It is the male norm.

 

[Harvey B]

Experts are saying that the earliest that they should reopen is on the 1st of June at the earliest so here's my thoughts and opinions on that:
My Opinon is that they should remain closed until for a few reasons

Firstly, what's the point of opening them up? because many primary and secondary schools will close for the summer around a month (or so) later. I personally see no point in them reopening past May half term. Many University and College courses will end in June anyway so I doubt that they will open before September.

Secondly, I think Social distancing will be a huge problem across the board ranging from Primary school students who don't understand what Social Distancing is or why we even have to social distance. Colleges and universities because of how many people go there, and some college and uni students go off campus to get food and they could catch the virus from someone else while on their way to college/university or while in town and then they could pass the virus on to people who the interact with. Finally High Schools, I personally find the concept of social distancing in a High School as something that will be very hard to maintain because of crowded dining hall's, the fact that everyone is wanting to rush home at the end of the school day and the gates are crowded, as-well as the crowds during breaks and lunches and finally you always get that one chavy Idiot (with less sense as a 5 year old) who thinks it's sensible and funny to block a doorway and hold it closed while others are trying to get out and then everyone goes to the doorway to find that someone's blocking it and everyone wanting to get out is crushed with literally no free space at all (which breaks the 2 metre rule).