Court next month.

[Snow1964]

Hello All.

I have today attended court on behalf of my original post.

I went to court. Signed in saw the prosecutor who told me my 2 hour to journey to court was a a waste of time as that is not the court that the train company operates from. They sent me to the wrong court.

they have now adjourned till October 20th where I must attend bank court.

So the prosecutor also turned up for the same booked Court slot, presumably he/she was on behalf of the train company.

It doesn’t make any sense to me how everyone can be called to a court in the wrong town.

 

[island]

Who's error was this? The Court Service or the TOC? If the latter l would have been seeking proof that l had attended the Court on the date specified with a view to expecting full compensation for my nugatory costs incurred as a result of their error.

You can be quite sure no such compensation will be paid.

 

[Wolfie]

You can be quite sure no such compensation will be paid.

Then the TOC would find themselves in County Court. They made the error, they pay! Sue them every damned time!

That might actually be a decent strategy for dealing once and for all with the current ridiculous imbalance between TOCs and passengers on the railway. If passengers launch legal action against TOCs on every possible occasion it wouldn't take long for that to bring the whole civil litigation structure to a shuddering halt and make politicians look hard at the causes.

A situation where TOCs can threaten to use criminal charges for a 5p fare irregularity to frankly extort sums of money from passengers and yet, when their complete incompetence causes passengers real financial damage, just expect them to suck it up is utterly ridiculous and unsustainable.

 

[island]

Then the TOC would find themselves in County Court.

No, it wouldn’t.

They made the error, they pay!

No, they didn’t. The courts service did. And they don’t pay compensation.

Sue them every damned time!

Contrary to the rarefied world of this sub-forum, normal people do not go around suing people for the smallest mistakes.

 

[Wolfie]

No, it wouldn’t.

No, they didn’t. The courts service did. And they don’t pay compensation.

Contrary to the rarefied world of this sub-forum, normal people do not go around suing people for the smallest mistakes.

If you bother reading what l posted earlier l stated that if the Courts service made the error no compensation would be paid. While that is unfair it is the reality.

I am sorry but when TOCs threaten legal action for zero excess fare issues or 5p fare differences then fighting fire with fire is an absolute must. If everyone did that their budgets would be utterly destroyed.

 

[AlterEgo]

If you bother reading what l posted earlier l stated that if the Courts service made the error no compensation would be paid. While that is unfair it is the reality.

I am sorry but when TOCs threaten legal action for zero excess fare issues or 5p fare differences then fighting fire with fire is an absolute must. If everyone did that their budgets would be utterly destroyed.

One of the less appealing themes in this sub-forum is for posters to suggest that strangers should expend their time and resources to "go nuclear" to solve what are relatively small disputes, usually in furtherance of an agenda.

I think we have a responsibility to give practical advice which will lead to a favourable outcome and not rely on strangers who have walked up to us for help to fight proxy wars with companies. Most people don't have the time for that.

 

[island]

One of the less appealing themes in this sub-forum is for posters to suggest that strangers should expend their time and resources to "go nuclear" to solve what are relatively small disputes, usually in furtherance of an agenda.

I think we have a responsibility to give practical advice which will lead to a favourable outcome and not rely on strangers who have walked up to us for help to fight proxy wars with companies. Most people don't have the time for that.

Indeed.

 

[Wolfie]

One of the less appealing themes in this sub-forum is for posters to suggest that strangers should expend their time and resources to "go nuclear" to solve what are relatively small disputes, usually in furtherance of an agenda.

I think we have a responsibility to give practical advice which will lead to a favourable outcome and not rely on strangers who have walked up to us for help to fight proxy wars with companies. Most people don't have the time for that.

I actually agree with much of that. The problem is that the current legal imbalance lies at the heart of what appears to be the utter contempt for proper customer service adopted by most TOCs (e.g. the apparent complete absence of customer skills and ticketing rules training for most customer facing staff, the complete failure to change notorious customer service poor spots such as Euston and Paddington). That, unless there is some sort of concerted campaign, will never change.

 

[Intodee451]

The prosecutor who was in court, after a brief chat revealed he didn’t work for the TOC in question.
There was no one in that court that worked on behalf of them & the case had been sent to the wrong court & no1 from said TOC knows I am in court. (Despite it being on an official letter from court)

that’s as much as I have been told.

this will be the first thing mentioned at my new court date.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Sep 2021 ==

To be honest I think I may talk to solicitors regarding a legal route for myself.

I was tried in court an found guilty in my absence due to the TOC not checking the electoral roll in which they have access too to determine whether or not I lived at the address given. A simple check would find I didn’t.

2 years later Im then sent a letter threatening baliffs and court action at a new address in which I do live at. I then do the statutory declaration and was told no further action would be taken until my case was reviewed however due to corona this will be god knows when.

a few months later I received a call to say that i didn’t do a statutory declaration I only asked to do one (despite sending emailed forms) and this was now the start of my stat dec.

That was then done and the advisor said it’s unlikely it will be taken to court due to what I have said. I then get a letter for court. In a different county 2 hours away. I have to pay to take public transport I have to pay to arrange childcare and all this despite having money already taken from my universal credit from the court for this fine in question.

it was then told to me I had wasted my time and money attending court due to a lack of communication on their part the case couldn’t be heard. Im now going to have to spend further money on the new court date, travel & baby costs at another court

isit worth pursuing it ?

 

[Haywain]

That was then done and the advisor said it’s unlikely it will be taken to court due to what I have said. I then get a letter for court. In a different county 2 hours away. I have to pay to take public transport I have to pay to arrange childcare and all this despite having money already taken from my universal credit from the court for this fine in question.

it was then told to me I had wasted my time and money attending court due to a lack of communication on their part the case couldn’t be heard. Im now going to have to spend further money on the new court date, travel & baby costs at another court

isit worth pursuing it ?

You are discovering what some in the legal profession refer to as the innocence tax. You can pursue your costs but don’t get your hopes up. This is a fault of our legal system.

 

[WesternLancer]

The prosecutor who was in court, after a brief chat revealed he didn’t work for the TOC in question.
There was no one in that court that worked on behalf of them & the case had been sent to the wrong court & no1 from said TOC knows I am in court. (Despite it being on an official letter from court)

that’s as much as I have been told.

this will be the first thing mentioned at my new court date.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Sep 2021 ==

To be honest I think I may talk to solicitors regarding a legal route for myself.

I was tried in court an found guilty in my absence due to the TOC not checking the electoral roll in which they have access too to determine whether or not I lived at the address given. A simple check would find I didn’t.

2 years later Im then sent a letter threatening baliffs and court action at a new address in which I do live at. I then do the statutory declaration and was told no further action would be taken until my case was reviewed however due to corona this will be god knows when.

a few months later I received a call to say that i didn’t do a statutory declaration I only asked to do one (despite sending emailed forms) and this was now the start of my stat dec.

That was then done and the advisor said it’s unlikely it will be taken to court due to what I have said. I then get a letter for court. In a different county 2 hours away. I have to pay to take public transport I have to pay to arrange childcare and all this despite having money already taken from my universal credit from the court for this fine in question.

it was then told to me I had wasted my time and money attending court due to a lack of communication on their part the case couldn’t be heard. Im now going to have to spend further money on the new court date, travel & baby costs at another court

isit worth pursuing it ?

Given that you are basically suffering a load of hassle and financial consequence of the failure to work properly of what are actually government accountable bureaucracies I would be writing to enlist the help of your MP now in getting some redress to all this hassle.
You are doing your best to engage with the system -t he system is wasting your time and money.
I would now:

a) complain to your MP
b) ask your MP if the MP will kindly write to both the Court and the TOC's Chief Exec - asking them to drop any further action, confirm in writing that they will not pursue this any further, and ask that they consider compensating you for the trouble you have been put to as a result of these administrative failings

I respect that some forum posters will perhaps think this is not what an MP should do (I tend to agree) but when I worked for an MP these are the sorts of letters on behalf of constituents that I would prepare for the MP to sign on a regular basis. It has a good chance of landing on the desk of someone senior enough to at least put a stop to the time being wasted.

Even if you are pursuing other avenues yourself there can be no harm in asking your MP to do this.

...your MP is under no obligation to do any of this, just as you are under no obligation to vote for them. But most conscientious MPs would try to help IMHO.

 

[Inthewest]

Not on the cuff, when questioned live by an inspector.

Maybe they have one prepared...
A name and house number of someone who complained about them?

The amount of weirdness in this whole thread is amazing.

Your bank statements might not show any activity, however it might be worth going back through social media accounts, you may have checked in or posted something that could prove you were no where near the location, your work(if employed) may still have records of your shift that day etc

How does the OP prove they didn't give their phone to someone else?
Elaborate, yes but not impossible.
Remember, even things like bank statements can be forged fairly easily so unlikely to be used as evidence (although the court could check with the bank).



If the OP really wasn't at the station, on that day, at that time (OP: you really should know if you "called in sick" to work or were at work), they simply need to find something that can absolutely prove, WITHOUT DOUBT, they were not there. However, if this was some years ago, may be difficult to find now.

OP: You should have asked for details already of the exact time and exact location and any screenshots from CCTV (they're you're image, you should be allowed to see them) to show you were there.
If the images are CLEARLY not of you, job solved - go to court and claim your costs back.
If they could be you (or rather it's not clear it isn't you), time to start hunting for some other evidence to show you were not there.

 

[skyhigh]

OP: You should have asked for details already of the exact time and exact location and any screenshots from CCTV (they're you're image, you should be allowed to see them) to show you were there.
If the images are CLEARLY not of you, job solved - go to court and claim your costs back.
If they could be you (or rather it's not clear it isn't you), time to start hunting for some other evidence to show you were not there.

CCTV from May 2018 is highly unlikely to be available.

 

[Snow1964]

CCTV from May 2018 is highly unlikely to be available.

It would be foolish to delete / not keep it if a court case covering the time and location is pending.

If defendant says not me, look at your CCTV, then it is going to look pretty stupid saying to magistrate that we destroyed evidence.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

It would be foolish to delete / not keep it if a court case covering the time and location is pending.

If defendant says not me, look at your CCTV, then it is going to look pretty stupid saying to magistrate that we destroyed evidence.

You might want to have a look at the original post:

apparently on the 31/05/18 I was caught without a ticket at Tooting train station in south london.

this was not me.

the first I heard of it was 18th March this year when I got a letter for a £500 fine.

I went down the route of statutory declaration and was told by my case handler it would most likely be thrown out.

As far as the railway was concerned, the matter was done and dusted when it went to court (without our OP's knowledge), presumably back in 2018.

 

[TravelDream]

a) complain to your MP
b) ask your MP if the MP will kindly write to both the Court and the TOC's Chief Exec - asking them to drop any further action, confirm in writing that they will not pursue this any further, and ask that they consider compensating you for the trouble you have been put to as a result of these administrative failings

I would highly recommend taking this course of action.

As someone who also previously worked from an MP as a caseworker, the majority of my work was dealing with issues like this (not often with trains obviously, but with companies of all sorts). I've seen cases which have been in gridlock for years get significant traction in no time due to a single letter.

 

[Intodee451]

Hi all

thanks for all advice and responses. I’m due back in court today at 2pm.

i will be demanding the trial is dealt with today and will be contacting my local mp if needed afterwards.

I have had meetings with citizens advice (the woman that saw me happened to be an ex magistrate) and was shocked at the level of incompetence shown in this case she advised me to write a letter to the court explaining everything again that was in my statutory declaration as she couldn’t see why I was being made to undertake this trial.

I did this and heard nothing back.
The first thing I done was request cctv or imagery and to be told what id was used. Every time I asked I was told they don’t have access to that information. I will be telling the court this also.

thanks again. Will update later

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all

thanks for all advice and responses. I’m due back in court today at 2pm.

i will be demanding the trial is dealt with today and will be contacting my local mp if needed afterwards.

I have had meetings with citizens advice (the woman that saw me happened to be an ex magistrate) and was shocked at the level of incompetence shown in this case she advised me to write a letter to the court explaining everything again that was in my statutory declaration as she couldn’t see why I was being made to undertake this trial.

I did this and heard nothing back.
The first thing I done was request cctv or imagery and to be told what id was used. Every time I asked I was told they don’t have access to that information. I will be telling the court this also.

thanks again. Will update later

Thanks for update. Good luck. Sounds like good advice from CAB. Shocking that the service given is so poor. That alone is one for the MP - or possibly if that gets nowhere even the Parliamentary Ombudsman service (ie not the Rail Ombudsman) -seems to fit the bill:

Courts | Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman (PHSO)

We can look at the administrative actions of a court, but cannot look at the actions, conduct or decisions of judges. We are also unable to consider complaints about how judges are appointed. To complain about:

www.ombudsman.org.uk

"we can look at the administrative actions of a court..."

 

[Intodee451]

Evening everyone.

so my re-trial was today at Bank Magistrates Court after the Bexleyheath debacle I didn’t hold much hope.

arrived at 1:15pm in hope I’d be seen before 2pm. Alas I was thankfully.

the prosecutor who I originally thought bless her, seeing her hobble around with the air of someone’s granny asked for my letter and name. Came back 15 minutes asked for my plea “not guilty”. Disappeared and came back after another 10/15 mins. Asked me ‘what is your problem, why are you not guilty’ to which I handed her a pre copied letter I had sent to the same court recorded delivery 2 weeks earlier telling them exactly what my problems were and told her to read it and get back to me. 30 mins later papers came back to me with “so you’re definitely pleading not guilty”, “yes correct”. 10 mins later got called into court.

gave my details sat down to hear the prosecutions evidence in which the dear old madam stood up and said ‘the prosecution has no evidence your worship’. “What’s my problem why am I not guilty” lol imagine.

that was the end of that.

still took money from my universal credit with all of their no evidence though but that’s since come back to me after kicking up a fuss.

case closed.

thanks everyone for all your help and comments. If anyone ever thinks I can help them out please message me.

have a great rest of the week and thanks again !
Daniel

 

[Hadders]

That’s a good result, well done. Thank you for letting us know the outcome.

 

[WesternLancer]

Evening everyone.

so my re-trial was today at Bank Magistrates Court after the Bexleyheath debacle I didn’t hold much hope.

arrived at 1:15pm in hope I’d be seen before 2pm. Alas I was thankfully.

the prosecutor who I originally thought bless her, seeing her hobble around with the air of someone’s granny asked for my letter and name. Came back 15 minutes asked for my plea “not guilty”. Disappeared and came back after another 10/15 mins. Asked me ‘what is your problem, why are you not guilty’ to which I handed her a pre copied letter I had sent to the same court recorded delivery 2 weeks earlier telling them exactly what my problems were and told her to read it and get back to me. 30 mins later papers came back to me with “so you’re definitely pleading not guilty”, “yes correct”. 10 mins later got called into court.

gave my details sat down to hear the prosecutions evidence in which the dear old madam stood up and said ‘the prosecution has no evidence your worship’. “What’s my problem why am I not guilty” lol imagine.

that was the end of that.

still took money from my universal credit with all of their no evidence though but that’s since come back to me after kicking up a fuss.

case closed.

thanks everyone for all your help and comments. If anyone ever thinks I can help them out please message me.

have a great rest of the week and thanks again !
Daniel

Well done. Great work and all the best to you!

 

[Wolfie]

Evening everyone.

so my re-trial was today at Bank Magistrates Court after the Bexleyheath debacle I didn’t hold much hope.

arrived at 1:15pm in hope I’d be seen before 2pm. Alas I was thankfully.

the prosecutor who I originally thought bless her, seeing her hobble around with the air of someone’s granny asked for my letter and name. Came back 15 minutes asked for my plea “not guilty”. Disappeared and came back after another 10/15 mins. Asked me ‘what is your problem, why are you not guilty’ to which I handed her a pre copied letter I had sent to the same court recorded delivery 2 weeks earlier telling them exactly what my problems were and told her to read it and get back to me. 30 mins later papers came back to me with “so you’re definitely pleading not guilty”, “yes correct”. 10 mins later got called into court.

gave my details sat down to hear the prosecutions evidence in which the dear old madam stood up and said ‘the prosecution has no evidence your worship’. “What’s my problem why am I not guilty” lol imagine.

that was the end of that.

still took money from my universal credit with all of their no evidence though but that’s since come back to me after kicking up a fuss.

case closed.

thanks everyone for all your help and comments. If anyone ever thinks I can help them out please message me.

have a great rest of the week and thanks again !
Daniel

A great result and a sensible, pragmatic prosecutor.

 

[AlterEgo]

Well done on a good result and thanks for letting us know the outcome.

 

[jupiter]

Well done for your perseverance as much as anything and thanks for the update.

 

[talldave]

Very worrying that there was so much pressure applied for a "guilty" plea against a charge for which no evidence was available.

 

[RunawayTrain]

Thank you for keeping us informed.

 

[Intodee451]

Thank you very much guys !

Yes I didn’t realise at the time. It wasn’t till I was on the way home it hit me the prosecution knew all along they had no evidence but yet were trying to get me to plead guilty. I can’t imagine the amount of money they’ve stolen off people without any evidence at all.

im now starting to believe the first trial in bexleyheath was merely set up for me to be put off attending and not fighting the case. I mean they were already taking money off me without any evidence via the DWP I’m sure I’m not the first or the last person they will do this too.

 

[Haywain]

Yes I didn’t realise at the time. It wasn’t till I was on the way home it hit me the prosecution knew all along they had no evidence but yet were trying to get me to plead guilty. I can’t imagine the amount of money they’ve stolen off people without any evidence at all.

Offering no evidence doesn't mean that no evidence was available, it's just a means of disposing of a case that has come before the court. The fact that any evidence wasn't up to scratch is a different matter.

im now starting to believe the first trial in bexleyheath was merely set up for me to be put off attending and not fighting the case. I mean they were already taking money off me without any evidence via the DWP I’m sure I’m not the first or the last person they will do this too.

Much more likely to be a case of Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

 

[island]

Very worrying that there was so much pressure applied for a "guilty" plea against a charge for which no evidence was available.

Offering no evidence doesn't mean no evidence was available, it's just a way of effectively discontinuing a prosecution at the last minute.

 

[talldave]

Offering no evidence doesn't mean no evidence was available, it's just a way of effectively discontinuing a prosecution at the last minute.

Understood, but nothing changed on the day of the court hearing? So why not save a lot of hassle by informing the defendant in advance that they're welcome to drop by, plead guilty and get a conviction or plead not guilty, have no evidence presented and walk away innocent?