Court next month.

[Intodee451]

Hi

I’m in need of some advice if possible, was recommended this site.

apparently on the 31/05/18 I was caught without a ticket at Tooting train station in south london.

this was not me.

the first I heard of it was 18th March this year when I got a letter for a £500 fine.

I went down the route of statutory declaration and was told by my case handler it would most likely be thrown out.
Unfortunately my bank statements show no in or out transactions from the 29/05/18 till the 1/06/18.

the paperwork was apparently sent to my mums next door neighbour which is a house I’ve never been in or resided at.

ive now been requested to attend court on the 8th of next month.

the letter was half cut off the page with not even a full description of the case itself.

do I need a solicitor or do I need to prepare any statements etc ?

Any advice would be gratefully appreciated.

kind regards

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi

I’m in need of some advice if possible, was recommended this site.

apparently on the 31/05/18 I was caught without a ticket at Tooting train station in south london.

this was not me.

the first I heard of it was 18th March this year when I got a letter for a £500 fine.

I went down the route of statutory declaration and was told by my case handler it would most likely be thrown out.
Unfortunately my bank statements show no in or out transactions from the 29/05/18 till the 1/06/18.

the paperwork was apparently sent to my mums next door neighbour which is a house I’ve never been in or resided at.

ive now been requested to attend court on the 8th of next month.

the letter was half cut off the page with not even a full description of the case itself.

do I need a solicitor or do I need to prepare any statements etc ?

Any advice would be gratefully appreciated.

kind regards

Hi - I think there have been other cases like this before on the forum, not sure I can find one but you could try - try and search 'statutory declaration' and see what comes up. However, hopefully others on here can advise better than me on this one.

If it goes to court they will have to be able to show / proove it was you (eg descrition of person caught) so assume they would not be able to do so and you would not be found guilty but you want to avoid getting to that stage.

Have you advised them in writing of your correct address?
Advised them that you did travel that day at that location?

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Your bank statements might not show any activity, however it might be worth going back through social media accounts, you may have checked in or posted something that could prove you were no where near the location, your work(if employed) may still have records of your shift that day etc

Also the journey that was made is it one that you would normally make etc, not near home or work place never use that train etc all these things can go to help proving it wasn't you, not that you need to, the burden of proof is on the prosecution but it might be easier to get them to drop the matter prior to a court case if you have decent proof you were nowhere near the location

 

[Intodee451]

Thanks for the responses.

they now know my correct address I’m assuming through dwp. Which is fine. Just that I don’t live in that county or the county where they’ve requested I attend court.
I have lived near to the area previously at my mums house but I’m certain they have no I’d proof as I don’t carry passport on myself and my provisional would have had my mums address on it which is not the address they sent the paperwork too.


social media is a good shout although to tend to stay off it lol so unlikely but thanks
It is however an unusual journey for me to take. It’s not a station with many lines and there’s a tube station 10 mins away and a station across the road from my mums house.
To be honest im not over worried. Abit anxious though. Just didn’t know how to handle it. Like I said never been to court before I’m not sure how it works other than tv !
Do you get asked questions or do you just give a statement etc ?
Thanks again.

 

[LCC106]

The alleged incident was 3 years prior to Intodee451 being made aware that it is going to court. Are time limits not exhausted? Genuinely don’t know.

 

[Wolfie]

The alleged incident was 3 years prior to Intodee451 being made aware that it is going to court. Are time limits not exhausted? Genuinely don’t know.

Sadly not. The implications of intodee451 having made a statutory declaration is that it had already been to Court previously without their knowledge.

 

[Western Sunset]

Just wondering why you suddenly got correspondence sent to your correct address, whilst preiously it had gone astray.

 

[skyhigh]

Just wondering why you suddenly got correspondence sent to your correct address, whilst preiously it had gone astray.

If it's got to the point where the court fine hasn't been paid and it's been passed onto debt collectors, they can be much more efficient at tracking down correct addresses...

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum.

This is not my area of expertise but if it were me I would engage the services of a local solicitor who specialises in criminal defence matters. Although the matter is probably reasonably straightforward going to court and defending yourself is not something I would recommend you do without experience of how a court works.

 

[Intodee451]

Thanks for your responses guys.
Yes all the paperwork was sent to a random address not my mums where I was living at the time.

the case went to court and I didn’t show up obviously clueless. I’m assuming they got my address from universal credit but I’m 100% certain they saw no id or they would have the right address for that time. So unless they show me cctv of my face. Then I don’t think I’ll be paying.
The case handler dealing with my statutory declaration was pretty sure it would be over turned on the basis tfl destroy evidence after 3 years. However it hasn’t been.

I guess I will have to go down the solicitor route as someone suggested as I really have no experience in something like this.

 

[Intodee451]

Isit worth me printing off bank statements obviously I can’t for the day in question as I have no transactions but you can clearly see I regularly top up my oyster and buy rail tickets ?

 

[Hadders]

Isit worth me printing off bank statements obviously I can’t for the day in question as I have no transactions but you can clearly see I regularly top up my oyster and buy rail tickets ?

A bank statement would help you if it showed that on the days in question you made a transaction far away from where you were accused of travelling without a ticket but this doesn't do that. This is why I think you need the help of a solicitor who will be used to dealing with these sort of matters. The sort of things I would expect a solicitor to do is get hold of the prosecution evidence and go through it in detail. Does it give a description of the person caught travelling without a ticket. Does it match you?

You also need to think where you were on the day of the incident. Would you have been at work, school or college? Can this be verified in any way. As @Mak1981 mentions upthread is your social media any help in where you were on the day in question.

It should be possible to make the matter go away but there's a fair bit of work to be done first.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The case handler dealing with my statutory declaration was pretty sure it would be over turned on the basis tfl destroy evidence after 3 years. However it hasn’t been.

It may be that it hasn't been overturned yet. Although this is not based on experience, my understanding is that a statutory declaration puts the process back to immediately before the court hearing: to bring things to an end either there needs to be a court hearing or TfL need to withdraw.

If TfL don't withdraw then it sounds as if they won't be in a position to present evidence. However...

Isit worth me printing off bank statements obviously I can’t for the day in question as I have no transactions but you can clearly see I regularly top up my oyster and buy rail tickets ?

I do think it's worth coming up with whatever you can - such as bank statements - as otherwise you don't have any evidence either. Of course, it's for the prosecution to make their case, but it makes sense to do everything you can to make it easy for the bench to find in your favour. So if bank statements show that you were paying for your Oyster and so on, that's helpful to support your argument that it wasn't you.

 

[30907]

The offence took place during half term week - does that help you work out where you might have been or who you might have met?

It might be worth contacting the court directly for advice - no idea whether that would work but....

 

[Intodee451]

I was working at the time and would have been working that week as my statements can corroborate however the day in question & the day after there are no transaction in or out of my bank account so I can only assume I was sick on those 2 days.

the paperwork itself presents some details but only the date it happened and where followed by the law in which was broken. However it cuts off in the middle of a sentence and no further details are added.

literally the only information I have been given from the courts is the date & station.
No time, no description of persons, no description of ID showed. Nothing. I’ve just been told they Don’t have access to that information.
I’ve checked social media but I don’t really post on it so there is nothing there from the day in question.
Im aware bank statements wouldn’t show disprove that it was me but I thought having evidence of always using Oyster card machines to top up and buy rail tickets would work in favour of me.
also in the same week prior to the date in question you can peice together via my bank statements that I was working nowhere near the incident in question at that time.

 

[Gloster]

I am not an expert in this area, but I find it extremely peculiar that the letter cuts off in the middle of a sentence. At the very least I think the OP should request that they are sent the full text of the letter in order to be able to discover whether it contains information that would assist in mounting a defence. Others may wish to comment on this point.

 

[Wolfie]

I am not an expert in this area, but I find it extremely peculiar that the letter cuts off in the middle of a sentence. At the very least I think the OP should request that they are sent the full text of the letter in order to be able to discover whether it contains information that would assist in mounting a defence. Others may wish to comment on this point.

Indeed. There has to be a certain level of disclosure.

 

[Intodee451]

I hopefully have attached the section of the letter I’m referencing it cuts of at ‘as’, please be aware info not included are date of court and court address. Other pages are coronavirus advice for attending.
regards

 

[Snow1964]

I vaguely remember reading about a similar case, I believe what transpired was that someone was caught and gave the name of someone they knew at school or college, but they slightly messed up the address (knew the road, got the house number wrong).

This sounds very similar, one thing I would do is try and dig out some photos of yourself from near that date, but keep them in reserve. They are never going to prove anything if you don’t match any description or pictures.

Ultimately the prosecution are going to have to prove it was you, so if you have something like I was at school, or had a holiday job at XX then it is evidence you couldn’t have been there. They really should be sending you full details of location, date and time, there is a minimum amount of info, you are not expected to guess where and when, or what somebody (else) was doing.

The other thing is if you are clearly not the person, then you should ask the magistrate/judge for costs and time having to defend yourself. Not my area of expertise but I believe it might be called a charging order. The other side would add costs if they won, so don’t be charitable and assume your defence time is free (and should include any costs you incurred getting statutory declaration) and any legal advice, and time and cost of getting to court.

EDIT : just read the letter, it says at Tooting, is that in the station, on a train passing through, on railway land outside the station, somewhere else in the town, not very clear to me.

 

[Intodee451]

I vaguely remember reading about a similar case, I believe what transpired was that someone was caught and gave the name of someone they knew at school or college, but they slightly messed up the address (knew the road, got the house number wrong).

This sounds very similar, one thing I would do is try and dig out some photos of yourself from near that date, but keep them in reserve. They are never going to prove anything if you don’t match any description or pictures.

Ultimately the prosecution are going to have to prove it was you, so if you have something like I was at school, or had a holiday job at XX then it is evidence you couldn’t have been there. They really should be sending you full details of location, date and time, there is a minimum amount of info, you are not expected to guess where and when, or what somebody (else) was doing.

The other thing is if you are clearly not the person, then you should ask the magistrate/judge for costs and time having to defend yourself. Not my area of expertise but I believe it might be called a charging order. The other side would add costs if they won, so don’t be charitable and assume your defence time is free (and should include any costs you incurred getting statutory declaration) and any legal advice, and time and cost of getting to court.

EDIT : just read the letter, it says at Tooting, is that in the station, on a train passing through, on railway land outside the station, somewhere else in the town, not very clear to me.

Thanks for your response.
It’s not very clear to me either to be honest. It’s as unlikely for me to be in Tooting station as it is passing through.
even when living local to Tooting at my mums there was a main line station to London Victoria across the road. I only ever travelled via underground from Tooting as the rail station bare no use to me.
I was indeed going to ask them to pay my travel as I’m currently based in Essex and the court is in bexleyheath. I don’t drive.
my only defence is that I was at home unwell as my bank statements show no usage on that day or the day after but before and after that shows regular top ups and rail tickets to work etc. I have nothing to prove otherwise unfortunately.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2021 ==

Interestingly I didn’t think to check my photos on my phone from that date.

I took 3 pictures of my tv playing a PlayStation game at 1pm in the afternoon on the day in question.

not that it helps much legally but reassured me I’m not losing my marbles lol

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I hopefully have attached the section of the letter I’m referencing it cuts of at ‘as’, please be aware info not included are date of court and court address. Other pages are coronavirus advice for attending.
regards

I think - but cannot be certain - that all that is missing is the wording to prove that the byelaws were made properly.

What we can also see is that the prosecution was under the railway byelaws, so
- 'Tooting' must mean the railway station rather than a tube station
- it's unlikely that TfL were the prosecutor - they have their own byelaws. So it would be useful (but not essential) for you to know which railway company, and how long they hang on to records for. My guess it will also be three years but you never know!

 

[Intodee451]

I think - but cannot be certain - that all that is missing is the wording to prove that the byelaws were made properly.

What we can also see is that the prosecution was under the railway byelaws, so
- 'Tooting' must mean the railway station rather than a tube station
- it's unlikely that TfL were the prosecutor - they have their own byelaws. So it would be useful (but not essential) for you to know which railway company, and how long they hang on to records for. My guess it will also be three years but you never know!

Okay thank you !
shows how much I use Tooting railway station lol apparently after a google search it is thameslink. Which runs to exactly the same places as the train across the road from my mums which is southern and gets there quicker so again lol no need for Tooting for me.
unfortunately can’t find any length of records kept info anywhere.

 

[Haywain]

I was indeed going to ask them to pay my travel as I’m currently based in Essex and the court is in bexleyheath. I don’t drive

I’m afraid that you are highly unlikely to get travel expenses back. You certainly won’t have any commitment to that ahead of a court hearing.

 

[30907]

Okay thank you !
shows how much I use Tooting railway station lol apparently after a google search it is thameslink. Which runs to exactly the same places as the train across the road from my mums which is southern and gets there quicker so again lol no need for Tooting for me.

The only stations served by both Southern and Thameslink are Tulse Hill and Streatham (and Sutton to Mitcham Eastfields inclusive, going the long way round).
However, I don't think that affects your case. I hope your employer can be of use - even if only to confirm you reported sick on the day concerned!

If all else fails, and you have not resolved this within the month, then showing up at court and asking to speak to the prosecutor is your fall-back, and the train fare would be money well spent to avoid a conviction.

 

[Snow1964]

I’m afraid that you are highly unlikely to get travel expenses back. You certainly won’t have any commitment to that ahead of a court hearing.

This is one of the weird bits of the legal process, unlikely to agree now, but if you ask a Court official to point you to their prosecutor before you enter the court you can explain, hope they drop case, but make your refund a condition of dropping it. If won’t agree then unfortunately you have to go in and let the magistrate agree expenses.

However it may be they are doing a number of these on same day (a production line of cases) so not available before you enter Court, so at the earliest opportunity address the magistrate and state that you have evidence you weren’t there, must be mistaken identity, and can you have incurred costs coming here today. And state you apologise for being direct but would rather Courts time is not wasted discussing something you weren’t involved in.

I don’t know if they will have photos of the person caught, or if they will let you see it (but if they offer it as evidence, then defendant should be able to see it). Even if it not you, there is a chance you will know who it is (they knew some of your details to give to ticket inspector). I am advising this because it may catch you unawares, and you will effectively be put on the spot about naming them and getting them in serious trouble. Not easy if it is a close relative, rather easier if it was a school bully and you have moved away since.

 

[RunawayTrain]

Just to clarify this, at the time of the offence you were living at your Mum's, and the original correspondence to you was sent to the house next door? So the person who had committed the offence had given the inspector your name but got your address wrong by one digit? I'm just wondering if you know anyone who might have done this as obviously they know you. It might help clear up this mystery a bit, and the Magistrate may be asking a question like this if it gets that far.

 

[Western Sunset]

if the address was out by one digit, then it'd probably not be next door, but on the opposite side of the street, though not necessarily directly opposite.

 

[RunawayTrain]

Good point - probably 2 digits then.

 

[pedr]

Does the paperwork identify the company prosecuting? If not, is it possible to ask the court administration to provide that information? Correspondence with the company before the case might have at least a small chance of convincing them to withdraw it.

 

[Haywain]

make your refund a condition of dropping it.

It's for the prosecution to drop the case, the defendant has no option to set conditions for that to happen. Unfortunately, the legal system in this country does not provide for innocent defendants to recover the cost of attending court and defending themselves.