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Could the railway cease accepting cash?

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martian boy

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Why all the fuss about cashless payments?

In Holland, there is the OV-chipkaart. This can be topped up in three ways. Firstly, by inserting cash into a top-up machine. Secondly, by inserting your debit card into the said machine. Thirdly, by a direct debit with the monthly amount agreed before hand. This card is accepted by all public transport. In fact, it works out cheaper to pay by this card, has paying by cash is often at a higher rate.

I've watched a bus load of people board at the start of a journey paying by card in a quarter of the time it takes for just a handful of people to board a bus paying by cash.

It will be the people themselves that will make the railways go cashless. Although I don't think there's need to panic yet. Knowing the British mentality, it will be several decades behind everybody else.
 
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Esker-pades

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Why all the fuss about cashless payments?

In Holland, there is the OV-chipkaart. This can be topped up in three ways. Firstly, by inserting cash into a top-up machine. Secondly, by inserting your debit card into the said machine. Thirdly, by a direct debit with the monthly amount agreed before hand. This card is accepted by all public transport. In fact, it works out cheaper to pay by this card, has paying by cash is often at a higher rate.

I've watched a bus load of people board at the start of a journey paying by card in a quarter of the time it takes for just a handful of people to board a bus paying by cash.

It will be the people themselves that will make the railways go cashless. Although I don't think there's need to panic yet. Knowing the British mentality, it will be several decades behind everybody else.

I found the ticket machines in Holland (specifically Utrecht Centraal) very frustrating when I visited. I couldn't put cash euros into any machines in or around the station. I didn't want to use my card, as my bank would have charged me an extortionate exchange rate plus fees etc. In the end, I had to rely on my non-existant Dutch (OK, mainly the ticket office staff's amazing English) to get my ticket to Stavoren and back from the ticket office. For someone with my condition, unexpected social interactions are difficult at the best of times, not least when its in a place and system I know very little about.

For regular users, something like an OV-chipkaart or Oyster is good, but irregular users can find it deeply tedious. I do not want to panic-run around a railway station I don't know well to find a ticket machine or a human that will accept my money.


I find the analogies to buses in this thread quite weird: people don't have to queue up at the driver's cab to buy tickets on a train now, and they won't in the future.
 

Indigo Soup

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And as for pretending that the person paying by card isn't going to pull the "Oh, I've got to pay" dance so that you can claim that cash is slower... <sigh>
People paying by cash are equally likely to do the same dance, in my experience, and it tends to take longer while they find the right change.
 

PeterC

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People paying by cash are equally likely to do the same dance, in my experience, and it tends to take longer while they find the right change.
There are just people who seem to be surprised when expected to produce any sort of ticket or payment. It doesn't matter if it is cash, bank card, Oyster card or a paper ticket. I have walked into one or two in the tube when they just stop dead in front of the ticket gate and try and remember what they need to find to get through.

Cash becomes a problem on buses when fares are silly amounts ending in odd numbers of pennies which means that either the driver keeps having to count out change or the customer has to search through their pockets/ purse for the right amount.
 

Clip

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Not yet, perhaps, but it's coming. With things like NFC and smartphones it's trivial to set up and requires no overhead other than the vendor having an NFC-capable smartphone (which most are now) and the customer having a similar device or an NFC payment card. I'm sure someone somewhere has even had an NFC chip implanted into themselves, though I suspect that's a step too far.

Does that mean people will need smartphones? Well, yes. It pretty much does. But that's the direction that society is moving in, and sooner or later it'll become very difficult to not have such things - in the same way that it's technically possible now to not have electricity in houses, but practically everybody does.

Whilst people moan about cards and phones and digital railcards the future very much is the present whether people like it or not and that simply isnt going to change because of a few people who simply prefer the old way of doing things.

https://www.scmp.com/news/world/eur...le-sweden-get-microchip-implants-new-way-life



A tiny microchip inserted under the skin can replace the need to carry keys, credit cards and train tickets.

That might sound like an Orwellian nightmare to some but in Sweden it is a welcome reality for a growing number who favour convenience over concerns of potential personal data violations.

The small implants were first used in 2015 in Sweden – initially confidentially – and several other countries.

Swedes have gone on to be very active in microchipping, with scant debate about issues surrounding its use, in a country keen on new technology and where the sharing of personal information is held up as a sign of a transparent society.

Twenty-eight year-old Ulrika Celsing is one of 3,000 Swedes to have injected a microchip into her hand to try out a new way of life.

To enter her workplace, the media agency Mindshare, she simply waves her hand on a small box and types in a code before the doors open.

“It was fun to try something new and to see what one could use it for to make life easier in the future,” she said.

In the past year, the chip has turned into a kind of electronic handbag and has even replaced her gym card, she said.

How microchips inserted under the skin could unlock the future – and the door to your home

If she wanted to, she could also use it to book train tickets.

Sweden’s SJ national railway company has won over some 130 users to its microchip reservation service in a year.

Conductors scan passengers’ hands after they book tickets online and register them on their chip. Sweden has a track record on the sharing of personal information, which may have helped ease the microchip’s acceptance among the Nordic country’s 10 million-strong population.

Citizens have long accepted the sharing of their personal details, registered by the social security system, with other administrative bodies, while people can find out each others’ salaries through a quick phone call to the tax authority.

The implants use Near Field Communication (NFC) technology, also used in credit cards, and are “passive”, which means they hold data that can be read by other devices but cannot read information themselves.

Although still small, they have the capacity to hold train tickets, entry pass codes as well as access certain vending machines and printers, promoters say.

Microchip implants give Jedi powers to lifelong Star Wars fan

When Celsing’s innovatively minded media company organised an event where employees could get the implants, she followed the crowd.

She said she felt nothing but a slight sting when the syringe inserted the chip into her left hand, which she now uses on an almost daily basis and does not fear hacking or possible surveillance.

“I don’t think our current technology is enough to get chip hacked,” she says.

“But I may think about this again in the future. I could always take it out then,” she adds.

However, for Ben Libberton, a microbiologist working for MAX IV Laboratory in the southern city of Lund which provides X-rays for research, the danger is real.

The chip implants could cause “infections or reactions of the immune system”, he warned.

But the biggest risk, he added, was around the data contained in the chip.

“At the moment, the data collected and shared by implants is small, but it’s likely that this will increase,” the researcher said.

The real question, he added, is what data is collected and who shares it.

“If a chip can one day detect a medical problem, who finds out and when?” he asked.

Libberton worried that “the more data is stored in a single place as could happen with a chip, the more risk it could be used against us.”

But Jowan Osterlund, a piercings specialist and self-proclaimed champion of chip implantation, brushes off fears of data misuse and conspiracy theories.

He advocates the opposite view, arguing that if we carried all our personal data on us, we would have better control of their use.

Despite unanswered questions however about how the technology will progress, the appeal of being part of a futuristic experience is a strong draw for some users.

“In Sweden, people are very comfortable with technology and I would say there is less resistance to new technology here than in most other places,” Libberton said.

At an “implant party” organised by Osterlund in Stockholm, 59-year-old Anders Brannfors stands out with his salt-and-pepper hair among the curious 30-something hipsters.

Delighted to have become a 2.0 version of himself, he has yet however to find a use for his chip several weeks after the implant.
 

The Ham

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You have to be joking!!
I pay very little tax as my income is my retirement pension and the small railway pension, so after paying for fuel, rates and food I would hve great difficulty finding £3k to clear a credit card bill.

The point was that if you were declaring £15,000 of income and had another £5,000 of off the books income that the fact you had £3,000 of spending on a credit card wouldn't make much difference to you. Yet the amount of tax paid would be fairly small.

It wasn't that long ago that £7,000 was your tax free allowance and so doing the same would have resulted ina much higher tax bill.
 

Bletchleyite

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That's what I was hinting at, but you've made the point much more clearly. Thank you.

That is ceratinly true, but pulling out your wallet, opening it and counting out change is orders of magnitude slower than pulling out your phone and tapping that on the reader.

If some ticket machines are really slow to accept cards, then that makes them a poor design of ticket machine, it does not make card payments a bad idea. Even if you have to say "Station please", the machine should be designed so that as you do you are moving your card towards the reader and it immediately picks it up when ready - like every other PDQ machine in every shop ever! It should only take the extra time needed to say the actual words "Station please" over the London flat fare system - what, 2 seconds per passenger?
 

Bletchleyite

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Oh, do stop trying to pretend that just because London is a quick tap then the same applies everywhere. For once in your life try learning from what other people tell you instead of putting your hands over your ears. You're not Tony Polson or Ian Batten, so stop behaving like them.

The point is that it should be a quick tap everywhere. It was when I bought a cup of tea earlier, for example. If it isn't, then there is something wrong with the design of the ticket machine.

The only thing that should extend time over the London situation is a statement of the destination which takes about 2-3 seconds. With no change to be given (which typically takes longer than that) if implemented correctly there should be a time gain.
 

island

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I found the ticket machines in Holland (specifically Utrecht Centraal) very frustrating when I visited. I couldn't put cash euros into any machines in or around the station. I didn't want to use my card, as my bank would have charged me an extortionate exchange rate plus fees etc. In the end, I had to rely on my non-existant Dutch (OK, mainly the ticket office staff's amazing English) to get my ticket to Stavoren and back from the ticket office. For someone with my condition, unexpected social interactions are difficult at the best of times, not least when its in a place and system I know very little about.

For regular users, something like an OV-chipkaart or Oyster is good, but irregular users can find it deeply tedious. I do not want to panic-run around a railway station I don't know well to find a ticket machine or a human that will accept my money.


I find the analogies to buses in this thread quite weird: people don't have to queue up at the driver's cab to buy tickets on a train now, and they won't in the future.
Nederlandse Spoorwegen TVMs don’t accept banknotes and most don’t accept foreign credit or debit cards.
 

Bald Rick

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Oh, do stop trying to pretend that just because London is a quick tap then the same applies everywhere. For once in your life try learning from what other people tell you instead of putting your hands over your ears. You're not Tony Polson or Ian Batten, so stop behaving like them.

No doubt there are some places outside London that have yet to catch up, however last time I caught a bus in Birmingham, contactless worked fine. I expect there’s plenty of other cities that have a similar system.
 

talltim

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About the only time I need cash is for the occasional bus home (Hulley’s of Baslow). My bus in the morning is Stagecoach and has contactless.
Having to have cash is bloody annoying, a couple of times I’ve forgotten I’ve got none and had to walk, other times I do remember and get some out and have to buy something to get change.
 

Bookd

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The problem is the complexity of fares - I am used to the London system.
Comparing to buses, on a trip to York this year I took the express bus to Pickering to take the NYMR. The buses take contactless cards, and payments took no time at all, but we were 10 minutes late leaving York as almost every passenger had a debate with the driver as to where they were going and the most appropriate fare.
 

Bletchleyite

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Contactless works fine in lots of places, many of them nowhere near cities, and nobody is suggesting that contactless doesn't work.
What I am arguing against, however, is Bletchleyite's apparent insistence that "quick tap, say nothing to anyone, walk away" is the only acceptable way contactless payments can work.
After all, anywhere with more than one zone or with multiple ticket options requires at the very least that the passenger tells the driver what ticket they want to buy with their contactless card...

As I said, “Station, please” with the card already on the reader takes what, 2 seconds?
 

Indigo Soup

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As I said, “Station, please” with the card already on the reader takes what, 2 seconds?
All well and good.

How about 'Airport please,' followed by 'This bus doesn't go to the airport, you'll need to change at the station,' and a discussion about whether to buy one single, two singles, a day pass or something else entirely. Or else 'single or return', and maybe even a consideration of when you're returning.
 

Bletchleyite

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The vast majority of local bus passengers are regulars, and so in towns and cities at least those chats are a relative minority. They also occur exactly the same for cash and so are not a disadvantage of contactless.
 

PeterC

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The vast majority of local bus passengers are regulars, and so in towns and cities at least those chats are a relative minority. They also occur exactly the same for cash and so are not a disadvantage of contactless.
As a youth in the London suburbs it was unusual for people to even name their destination. Most passengers requested a ticket from the conductor by price (showing my age there).
 

Clip

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As a youth in the London suburbs it was unusual for people to even name their destination. Most passengers requested a ticket from the conductor by price (showing my age there).

I remember doing that when i was younger in Newcastle.
 

ainsworth74

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No doubt there are some places outside London that have yet to catch up, however last time I caught a bus in Birmingham, contactless worked fine. I expect there’s plenty of other cities that have a similar system.

Similarly here in the metropolis of Teesside I've caught a few Arriva buses and it's always been quick and painless using contactless (though it did take freaking ages for them to roll it out to their fleet).
 

Dai Corner

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Similarly here in the metropolis of Teesside I've caught a few Arriva buses and it's always been quick and painless using contactless (though it did take freaking ages for them to roll it out to their fleet).

and here in the cities and valleys of South Wales, not normally noted for being at the leading edge of innovation. With the dishonourable exception of municipal Newport Transport.
 

Bletchleyite

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As a youth in the London suburbs it was unusual for people to even name their destination. Most passengers requested a ticket from the conductor by price (showing my age there).

That was and may well still be the norm in Manchester too. It resulted in an amusing situation at a fares change, where "40 please" (for example) actually cost 45p.
 

Dai Corner

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That was and may well still be the norm in Manchester too. It resulted in an amusing situation at a fares change, where "40 please" (for example) actually cost 45p.

In Kent in 1971 "5 please" stood for "child return to Maidstone please". My Scholar's Ticket was only valid on school days I presume.
 

mark-h

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If the drivers counted how much money the customers put in the hopper then it would probably take much longer. It would be interesting to know how much customers are underpaying.
 

Clip

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If the drivers counted how much money the customers put in the hopper then it would probably take much longer. It would be interesting to know how much customers are underpaying.

Surely it counts it as it goes in?
 
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