Could the railway cease accepting cash?

[Bletchleyite]

On this thread:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...fice-left-unmanned.169976/page-9#post-3659948

...it was reported that:

One consideration probably mentioned re the card only TVMs is the (not that well reported) spate of break-ins at Metrolink's TVMs. Most were done on a midweek night after the machine is filled with notes from season ticket purchases on a Monday. There is no maximum cash transaction thus a £1000 ticket could theoretically be purchased with cash. I'd estimate there have been 90 or more break-ins since 2014.

So I ask...could the railway stop accepting cash, either entirely or only accepting it at staffed ticket offices?

As per my reply on that thread, some kind of pre-paid card would be a reasonable replacement for those who cannot for whatever reason hold a traditional debit card; this could be topped up at main station staffed ticket offices and PayPoint/PayZone shops of which there are loads (practically every newsagent these days). It doesn't seem to have been the kind of disaster on London Buses that people seemed to think it would be.

What do people think?

 

[DarloRich]

yes. Cash could stop. one day. The use of contactless debit cards is only going to increase. People have bank cards loaded onto their phone etc. As the older users who are more cash friendly die out things will change. It will take a few years still.

I rarely pay cash for a train fare now. It is all contactless or on line. Many buses are cashless. I only really use cash in restaurants or pubs or for taxis these days or at the corner shop for a pint of milk and some eggs type shopping.

 

[Clip]

Not for a while yet I dont think. Its difficult to get people to accept digital tickets and railcards so withdrawing cash is a long way off

 

[Bletchleyite]

These days I pay by card in pubs most of the time (or on the app in 'Spoons, table service is nice and civilised), though it was the "last bastion" of relatively high value cash for me. Now I only use cash for low value transactions like a portion of chips or a bar of chocolate, and 50 quid can easily last me several weeks or more. Always card for train fares.

 

[Esker-pades]

Cashless is probably inevitable, but:

I still like using cash. When I buy turn-up-and-go tickets, I generally use cash. However, ticket machines are fairly awful with change. I once had to buy a £20.05 ticket with two twenty pound notes. My change came back as 25 coins. Similarly, I have also been given change in 20p pieces (which isn't great ifone is getting ~£6 of change).

In my experience, rural railway lines and those with poor internet/signal often have problems with card payments as the machine cannot communicate with the bank to approve the transaction.

Also, TfL only stopped accepting cash on buses after the frequency of cash journeys was less than 1%. I would be amazed if that percentage had been reached on the railways.

 

[Robertj21a]

I can see it going cashless at the more 'risky' locations sooner than later. There's little need for cash to be accepted if it's likely to be raided and a high proportion of the travelling population is very likely to have a suitable card already.

 

[underbank]

In my experience, rural railway lines and those with poor internet/signal often have problems with card payments as the machine cannot communicate with the bank to approve the transaction.

Not just rural with poor internet access and mobile coverage. In storm Desmond our entire area was without power and mobile phone signal - cash was the only way to pay for anything for 2/3 days, including buses, taxis, trains, food, etc., as there was simply no way of paying by card anywhere.

 

[cuccir]

I visited Malmo on a day trip earlier this year from Copenhagen and didn't see any Swedish currency. Indeed, many shops had signs up saying that they didn't accept cash, and things like public toilets were opened using a contactless card. I believe that this reflects Swedish society more widely, which has moved quickly away from cash.

Personally I think that as things stand this seems a bit of a rush to cashlessness for the sake of it, although in a town like Malmo near an international border there are clear advantages. But it certainly shows that it's possible and there's no technical reason why the railway couldn't go cashless.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a very significant advantage for TOCs with lots of unstaffed or part-time staffed stations - everyone can use the TVM unless a disability causes issues (and a far lower risk of TVMs being criminally damaged if there is nothing to nick), and so you can be much stricter about buy before you board.

Also a lower personal safety risk to guards where provided. And much reduced costs of collecting and cashing up.

 

[Robertj21a]

Not just rural with poor internet access and mobile coverage. In storm Desmond our entire area was without power and mobile phone signal - cash was the only way to pay for anything for 2/3 days, including buses, taxis, trains, food, etc., as there was simply no way of paying by card anywhere.

In that extreme situation I would not be surprised if there were no trains either !

 

[tsr]

Gatwick Express staff no longer take cash on trains or when floorwalking at stations. So far as I know, there really haven’t been all that many complaints from anyone.

You do have to be mindful that card fraud and skimming devices can cause problems at unstaffed or unmonitored locations. I wouldn’t be surprised if TVMs take cash for longer than onboard crews (of whatever flavour), since they can often still take coins or notes if the machine detects tampering with the card device, or if someone feels unhappy about using their card.

The decision about whether or not to install a card-only or cash/card TVM is often taken on cost grounds, as the cash handling equipment can be very expensive and the machines tend to require a much larger footprint. Card readers are very cheap indeed, by comparison. There can also be issued with staff availability for cashing up TVMs in remote locations.

Personal safety is not compromised in most cases of TVM tampering at unstaffed locations, but it is for onboard cash sales.

 

[Typhoon]

My local station is machine only for most of the day (ticket office open for just over 3 hours in theory). Machine doesn't take cash. I questioned this for school children, South Eastern's response was they could borrow their parent's card! I have no problem with the elimination of cash provided there was a sensible method of paying available to all. No cards that allow you to run into debt - too many opportunities for theft. South Eastern's card - The Key - seems to be season ticket only, maybe there are options to extend this idea. At the moment there are school children travelling for free (at least there will be in a couple of hours), I have even heard a bus driver telling a child with no money that they could catch the train!

 

[kristiang85]

I'd say in 10-15 years it will potentially be both cashless and paper ticketless nationwide, or at least on all major routes - the short term is a bit too early I think.

The biggest problem I see is when systems fail, which is a "when" in the UK. There needs to be adequate backup for passengers in these situations.

 

[michael74]

I have just spent a weekend in that there London and I am always impressed by TFLs grasp of contactless technology, indeed I remember in the news everyone telling us how the world will come to an end especially when the bus's went cashless and while I get the frustrations felt by some in society and the erosion of jobs on LU it does make the journey so much easier, especially not having to guess which travelcard you need if you were visiting. Having grown up near Liverpool, I always thought it short sighted that Merseyrail have been so slow in adopting the same technology.

As a foot note, I went to few pubs while in London and the bar staff had the contactless machine in their hand ready after totalling up the round and some were surprised if you paid in cash....

 

[gordonthemoron]

I work with banks, and I use contactless a LOT. I am constantly surprised that the pickup on this is nowhere near my own experience (I am 58) or what is reported in the press

 

[Bletchleyite]

South Eastern's response was they could borrow their parent's card!

That's a rather interesting response given that it would be against the terms and conditions of the account.

There is however this kind of thing:
https://www.gohenry.co.uk

While they aren't free of charge, if I had kids they'd almost certainly have one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As a foot note, I went to few pubs while in London and the bar staff had the contactless machine in their hand ready after totalling up the round and some were surprised if you paid in cash....

I have heard comments like "Cash? Nobody carries cash in London any more" on a few occasions.

 

[urbophile]

I have heard comments like "Cash? Nobody carries cash in London any more" on a few occasions.

Like 'everybody shops in Waitrose these days'. When all the homeless beggars have got card readers I'll believe it.

 

[Robertj21a]

I'd say in 10-15 years it will potentially be both cashless and paper ticketless nationwide, or at least on all major routes - the short term is a bit too early I think.

The biggest problem I see is when systems fail, which is a "when" in the UK. There needs to be adequate backup for passengers in these situations.

I would hope it's going to be a lot quicker than 10-15 years !. We're already way behind many other countries and the fast take-up of contactless shows there's a demand for more card use. Like others, I'm already finding that cash is rarely needed.

 

[oversteer]

I wish TVMs near me would accept Apple Pay over £20 or whatever the limit is.

 

[mmh]

That's a rather interesting response given that it would be against the terms and conditions of the account.

There is however this kind of thing:
https://www.gohenry.co.uk

While they aren't free of charge, if I had kids they'd almost certainly have one.

6 great reasons why gohenry makes pocket money better—for kids and parents

3. You write the rules, using our unique parental controls.
4. You decide where it can be used—in shops, online or at cash machines.
5. Real-time notifications telling you when—and where—your child is spending.

That's far too controlling

 

[gordonthemoron]

I wish TVMs near me would accept Apple Pay over £20 or whatever the limit is.

it's £30

 

[js1000]

So I ask...could the railway stop accepting cash, either entirely or only accepting it at staffed ticket offices?

As per my reply on that thread, some kind of pre-paid card would be a reasonable replacement for those who cannot for whatever reason hold a traditional debit card; this could be topped up at main station staffed ticket offices and PayPoint/PayZone shops of which there are loads (practically every newsagent these days). It doesn't seem to have been the kind of disaster on London Buses that people seemed to think it would be.

What do people think?

Personally, I pay by credit card at TVMs.

I dislike paying with my debit card at TVMs at unmanned Northern Rail stations given the security risk. If my credit card gets skimmed/cloned then that's up to the card issuer to sort out. If my debit card is then I could be out of pocket.

For many years, banks (Santander and Natwest IIRC) failed to accept onboard card payments made through the conductors mobile ticket machine. I think it was something to do with the fact it was not connected to the bank network and would subsequently refuse to process payments given the security risk. The new mobile ticket machines Northern have are more reliable now.

 

[oversteer]

it's £30

I also wish my ticket was under £30

 

[gordonthemoron]

Personally, I pay by credit card at TVMs.

I dislike paying with my debit card at TVMs at unmanned Northern Rail stations given the security risk. If my credit card gets skimmed/cloned then that's up to the card issuer to sort out. If my debit card is then I could be out of pocket.

For many years, banks (Santander and Natwest IIRC) refused to accept onboard card payments made through the conductors mobile ticket machine. I think it was something to do with the fact it was not connected to the bank network and would subsequently refuse to process payments given the security risk.

If it's fraud, Debit and Credit cards are the same. The difference with Credit Cards is that transactions between £100 and £30,000 (the upper limit may be wrong) can be refunded by the Card issuer if the goods are not supplied

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wish TVMs near me would accept Apple Pay over £20 or whatever the limit is.

Yes, that is a bit of an annoyance. No reason why other than lazy programming they shouldn't; Apple/Android Pay are considered equal to PIN verified (they are actually *more* secure as you can't nick a fingerprint) and so should be accepted for any amount, as they are on almost all retailer terminals.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it's fraud, Debit and Credit cards are the same. The difference with Credit Cards is that transactions between £100 and £30,000 (the upper limit may be wrong) can be refunded by the Card issuer if the goods are not supplied

There is a practical difference, though. If you have a credit card and are victim to fraud, you just lose use of that credit card until the issue is solved. With a debit card you can end up out of pocket and with bills etc remaining unpaid.

 

[js1000]

If it's fraud, Debit and Credit cards are the same. The difference with Credit Cards is that transactions between £100 and £30,000 (the upper limit may be wrong) can be refunded by the Card issuer if the goods are not supplied

Yes, that £100 limit is for goods. Section 75 protection.

Fraud is a different matter and doesn't fall under Section 75. If any credit card been skimmed and used elsewhere, the money gets refunded whether it is under or over £100.

Thankfully, credit card issuers are unbelievably quick to notice irregularities and generally will repay any unauthorised transactions. I know from experience unfortunately.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's far too controlling

For a young child? Not really. Most parents would apply that level of control with cash too.

Over 13 (11 at some banks) and you can get an account with a proper (online verified only) debit card.

 

[krus_aragon]

I would hope it's going to be a lot quicker than 10-15 years !. We're already way behind many other countries ...

Yet we're ahead of many others: The USA is still in the process of moving (tortuously) from magnetic strip to ICC (chip) cards: they still have regular news articles on card skimmers used at retailer X leading to card cloning and identity theft etc on a regular basis. At least the low-hanging fruit over there makes us a less appealing target.