Could the railway cease accepting cash?

[OneOffDave]

If they had a modern rechargeable EPOS machine with a SIM card in it you could have paid by card too. Businesses don't bother with backups because they can fall back on cash - but if that lost them all their sales, they certainly would bother.

Assuming there is power to the local cell site and the power cut doesn't last longer than the batteries in the base station (which isn't that long). To properly back it up they'd need a couple of EPOS machines one charging while the other is in use and a resilient landline which isn't cheap. Multiple SIMS might work but if the local cell site is getting a lot of traffic, the batteries won't last long at all. Satphone data link might be an option but it's costly

 

[Robertj21a]

Assuming there is power to the local cell site and the power cut doesn't last longer than the batteries in the base station (which isn't that long). To properly back it up they'd need a couple of EPOS machines one charging while the other is in use and a resilient landline which isn't cheap. Multiple SIMS might work but if the local cell site is getting a lot of traffic, the batteries won't last long at all. Satphone data link might be an option but it's costly

If people, like the railways, were to indicate an eventual move to even more card transactions I guess the various manufacturers would up their game as necessary.

 

[underbank]

and you can always fall back to the previous technology (contactless -> C&P, C&P -> stripe and signature, stripe and signature -> manual machine and signature) if necessary.

Very few places will have the old manual machine and paper slips anymore. Certainly not those who've bought the cheap £50 readers.

 

[michael74]

I don't think the railway will ever go cashless, but I do see it going the way of LU/TFL. I think it is truly lamentable that operators such as Merseyrail have yet to implement a tap system such as TFL who have been successfully running one for years. Indeed moving forward with the current efforts to harmonise the total dogs dinner that is the national fares system a nationwide tap in-out system could be introduced. I look forward to that day (but I shall not hold my breath)

 

[DarloRich]

My local pub only accepts cash. Landlord says that bank charges are just too high for him to entertain getting a card machine. He does have the luxury of a free to use cash machine being two buildings down. Cash is far from dead.

Cash is far from dead but where the cash is used and the level of payment involved is changing. my cash use tends to be small (ish) payments in the pub or corner shop. If go to the spoons i will pay by card.

However how does the railway accommodate those that aren't allowed bank accounts (some people still aren't allowed) and yet still pay their fare?

Who cant get a basic bank account or pre paid card? I have been fairly low down the credit ladder and never been prevented from opening a bank account ( although i accept you might need a permanent address and ID to open such an account)

 

[Darandio]

However how does the railway accommodate those that aren't allowed bank accounts (some people still aren't allowed) and yet still pay their fare?

Care to give any examples?

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a limit to what kinds of bank account an undischarged bankrupt can hold, but they can hold a basic bank account with a number of banks, and they can certainly hold a pre-paid debit card as that is not legally a bank account.

 

[OneOffDave]

If people, like the railways, were to indicate an eventual move to even more card transactions I guess the various manufacturers would up their game as necessary.

I can't see the mobile phone operators upgrading the back-up power capacity of the cell sites unless government mandates it. You don't get many routers with battery back up either and I can't see the corner shop shelling out for a UPS that would last 4-5 hours, assuming the line to the local exchange is up for 'copper' connections. With fibre internet, the boxes at the end of the street are powered and if the power is out, they go down too. Your problem isn't so much running the payment device in your own premises, it's linking it to the rest of the world over infrastructure that you can't have any influence over

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't see the mobile phone operators upgrading the back-up power capacity of the cell sites unless government mandates it. You don't get many routers with battery back up either and I can't see the corner shop shelling out for a UPS that would last 4-5 hours, assuming the line to the local exchange is up for 'copper' connections. With fibre internet, the boxes at the end of the street are powered and if the power is out, they go down too. Your problem isn't so much running the payment device in your own premises, it's linking it to the rest of the world over infrastructure that you can't have any influence over

About £30 will buy you a battery pack that will keep a tablet or mobile going for days, not hours. The move is very much towards that kind of EPOS system instead of a big till style one.

 

[OneOffDave]

About £30 will buy you a battery pack that will keep a tablet or mobile going for days, not hours. The move is very much towards that kind of EPOS system instead of a big till style one.

But if it can't talk to anything because the local cell site is down or your broadband isn't working as the box at the end of the street has no power, it doesn't matter how long the terminal is up as nothing will get authorised

 

[Bletchleyite]

But if it can't talk to anything because the local cell site is down or your broadband isn't working as the box at the end of the street has no power, it doesn't matter how long the terminal is up as nothing will get authorised

You are talking increasingly niche situations, though. How often do you get a power outage at home of any significant length? I can't recall when I last did.

 

[underbank]

You are talking increasingly niche situations, though. How often do you get a power outage at home of any significant length? I can't recall when I last did.

Our village substation blew up last Summer - no power to the pubs/shops in the village for over 24 hours. The year before, Storm Desmond, no electric for 3 days. Not that rare an occurrence, more so outside the major towns and cities where the infrastructure isn't up to standard. We still don't have a decent 3g coverage in our village and broadband is still pretty slow.

 

[PeterC]

Very few places will have the old manual machine and paper slips anymore. Certainly not those who've bought the cheap £50 readers.

I know one trader who sells through fairs and always carries one as backup for places with no signal.

 

[Darandio]

Very few places will have the old manual machine and paper slips anymore. Certainly not those who've bought the cheap £50 readers.

Supermarkets do, certainly Morrisons and Tesco anyway. Twice in the last two years I have seen manual payments taken when the systems were down. The checkout queues were a mile long!

 

[Clip]

I can't see the mobile phone operators upgrading the back-up power capacity of the cell sites unless government mandates it. You don't get many routers with battery back up either and I can't see the corner shop shelling out for a UPS that would last 4-5 hours, assuming the line to the local exchange is up for 'copper' connections. With fibre internet, the boxes at the end of the street are powered and if the power is out, they go down too. Your problem isn't so much running the payment device in your own premises, it's linking it to the rest of the world over infrastructure that you can't have any influence over

Surely if the power was down in a bad storm then no shops would be open anyway?

 

[sprunt]

There is a limit to what kinds of bank account an undischarged bankrupt can hold, but they can hold a basic bank account with a number of banks, and they can certainly hold a pre-paid debit card as that is not legally a bank account.

Do they not typically come with fees attached?

 

[Darandio]

Do they not typically come with fees attached?

It can depend how much you put on. But the whole point in outlining them as a means of payment was in response to a statement that people would be left without means to pay for a train ticket. They wouldn't.

 

[Starmill]

Very few places will have the old manual machine and paper slips anymore. Certainly not those who've bought the cheap £50 readers.

The GWR on train buffet had them when I paid by card 3 years ago!

 

[Darandio]

The GWR on train buffet had them when I paid by card 3 years ago!

And even if they aren't using them now I dare bet they still have them under the counter as well. Maybe someone working on board could confirm?

 

[Dore & Totley]

Given my local station is unmanned and the TVM is card only my only chance for using cash is the Guard on board. Ad hoc observations show that a lot of the time their interactions are more card than cash. Quite a few times I have had to traipse to the Sheffield ticket office if the Guard hasn't had time to get to me. Therefore I always use card now. Even the vending machines at Sheffield take contactless, Apple and Android pay. I can see maybe it being cashless on the trains within the next decade.

 

[sprunt]

It can depend how much you put on. But the whole point in outlining them as a means of payment was in response to a statement that people would be left without means to pay for a train ticket. They wouldn't.

They shouldn't be put in a position where they'd effectively have to pay a premium in order to buy a train ticket though - especially since the people who'd need to resort to such things are invariably going to have the least money to spare.

 

[underbank]

And even if they aren't using them now I dare bet they still have them under the counter as well. Maybe someone working on board could confirm?

Yes, if they've got "proper" merchant accounts with banks etc, like most bigger stores etc would do, they'll probably have the old kit lying around. But these days, more and more are using the cheap mobile terminals which don't come with the machines and some banks no longer provide the manual system for new accounts. Even when the paper machines are used, they're not usually processed in the old fashioned way - more likely they're just recording the details to be put through the electronic terminal as a customer not present when the system comes back. That's certainly what happened when I bought a carpet at Carpetright when their phone line was done - we did the paper swipe, but when the line came back, they put it through the machine.

 

[Darandio]

They shouldn't be put in a position where they'd effectively have to pay a premium in order to buy a train ticket though - especially since the people who'd need to resort to such things are invariably going to have the least money to spare.

Which suggests to me people such as those on benefits. The same people that can get a bank account.

The spread of people who are refused a bank account is very, very small. We are talking illegal immigrants, people awaiting deportation and some criminals, although the latter are still likely to be accepted for the most basic account.

Since the Post Office card account was wound down, it's also easier than ever before with a wide range of even more basic accounts offered by banks.

 

[underbank]

Surely if the power was down in a bad storm then no shops would be open anyway?

Big stores/chains tend to give up at the first sight of any problems. But smaller, independent shops/pubs etc often do all they can to stay open to provide support for the local community (and sell off the stock that is perishable!). In our village, the pub, spar shop, newsagents and bakery all managed to open, working by torch and candle-light and adding up on paper the old fashioned way. Also, it's not actually just during the storm, the 2 days afterwards were remarkably quiet weather-wise, but the power/phone didn't come back on, so life had to carry on as best it could. (But the pub itself stayed open throughout the storm and was very welcome for those stranded once public transport had given up!).

 

[OneOffDave]

Surely if the power was down in a bad storm then no shops would be open anyway?

Only while the storm was raging. After it's passed through power can still be off for a while. Look at the 61,000 properties affected in the Lancaster area following the flooding in 2016. Lots of places unaffected by the flooding were hit by prolonged power outages. The risk is still considered significant enough for it to be included in the National Risk Register

 

[RichardN]

https://assets.publishing.service.g...h_and_digital_payments_in_the_new_economy.pdf

Although cash usage is declining, the government wants to explore how to ensure cash remains accessible and secure for those who need to use it. It is committed to making sure that the public’s legitimate cash needs continue to be met, whether that’s through sufficient access to ATMs, or other sources. The government is keen to understand whether the current denominational mix meets the needs of cash users, including vulnerable groups, who use cash on a daily basis for legitimate purposes.

The government recognises the continued importance of cash, especially for more vulnerable members of society and the elderly. Over half of all consumers who relied predominantly on cash during 2016 had total household incomes of less than £15,000 per year.13 Whilst reliance on cash is far more likely to be determined by household income than any other demographic, it also varies with age, with only 2% of those aged 55-64 rarely using cash, compared to 11% of those aged 25-34.14

With the expected continued digitalisation of the economy, a further decline in cash usage may have profound implications for the most vulnerable in society, and for those businesses and organisations that rely on cash.

This implies that the Government is committed (for the time being at least) to keep cash as an available option.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do they not typically come with fees attached?

Yes, but that doesn't mean you can't have one. Cash machines often charge similar levels of fees, and there are quite wide areas these days with no free ones.

 

[mark-h]

Which suggests to me people such as those on benefits. The same people that can get a bank account.

Most benefits are paid into bank accounts. Almost all employers only pay through BACS. The main people who will be affected by a move away from cash are those doing "cash in hand" work and not declaring it to HMRC!

 

[Clip]

Big stores/chains tend to give up at the first sight of any problems. But smaller, independent shops/pubs etc often do all they can to stay open to provide support for the local community (and sell off the stock that is perishable!). In our village, the pub, spar shop, newsagents and bakery all managed to open, working by torch and candle-light and adding up on paper the old fashioned way. Also, it's not actually just during the storm, the 2 days afterwards were remarkably quiet weather-wise, but the power/phone didn't come back on, so life had to carry on as best it could. (But the pub itself stayed open throughout the storm and was very welcome for those stranded once public transport had given up!).

Good to know they had enough goods and beer that people required then

 

[RichardN]

The move to a cashless society has profound implications for beggars too...