Could the 701/5s go elsewhere?

[London Trains]

Given these units are effectively surplus to SWR's requirements, even if some of the withdrawn services do return in the future, and they are effectively "non standard" alongside the masses of 5-car 444s, 4-car 450s and 10-car 701s, could these units potentially go to another operator?

Its must be a broken record on the forum but the first TOC that came to mind was Southeastern

 

[BerkshireRails]

Isn't one plan to use them on WofE to replace the class 158 Express Sprinters and class 159 South Western Turbos?

 

[tfw756rider]

Isn't one plan to use them on WofE to replace the class 158 Express Sprinters and class 159 South Western Turbos?

I thought the idea was for 444s/450s (not 701/5s) to replace the 158s/159s?

(Obviously, in either case, battery-electric conversion would be required).

 

[BerkshireRails]

I thought the idea was for 444s/450s (not 701/5s) to replace the 158s/159s?

(Obviously, in either case, battery-electric conversion would be required).

SWR have looked into both using Desiros and 701s. They found they could get to life cycles out of the 701s, but only one for the Desrios. Hence, the preference is the 701s. The third rail option has been replaced by OLE.

 

[JonathanH]

They found they could get to life cycles out of the 701s, but only one for the Desrios.

What does this mean? I guess you meant to write two life cycles, rather than to.

 

[BerkshireRails]

What does this mean? I guess you meant to write two life cycles, rather than to.

The life cycles are referring to the Batteries. Batteries have a life cycle for rail vehicles of between 10-15 years.

 

[D365]

The life cycles are referring to the Batteries. Batteries have a life cycle for rail vehicles of between 10-15 years.

I have never heard this ”life cycle” terminology used with respect to the economic life of battery-equipped vehicles. Please can you elaborate what exactly you are trying to say.

 

[BerkshireRails]

I have never heard this ”life cycle” terminology used with respect to the economic life of battery-equipped vehicles. Please can you elaborate what exactly you are trying to say.

The term life cycle comes from SWR with there plan for the WofE electrification. Life Cycle means how long can they last as traction batteries before they need replacement due to ware and tare from the constant use with rapid charging and discharging.

 

[brad465]

Are there any places that 5-car units on SWR are needed for flexibility/resilience? I seem to recall the Kingston Bay platform coming up as somewhere a 10-car unit won't fit.

While Southeastern would potentially benefit from the passenger side, I can think of these problems:

1) Yet another new fleet that comes with more driver training and different maintenance needs. SE already have 3 fleets for Metro operation, a 4th is surely stretching complexity too far.
2) Another 5-car fleet is not helpful, SE needs more 4-car units to make 4/8/12; 376s and 707s can do 10-car needs.

If there was another operator that could use them, I'd say Southern maybe in with a shout. They are still down on units from the 313 + 455 withdrawal, while demand is being suppressed by the lower carriage count across the network. While this is a different fleet to add on for Southern too, they only have 2-3 fleet variants altogether so could take on a different one better than Southeastern. Put these on some key metro/suburban routes to allow more 3 and 4-car 377s to strengthen mainline and coastway services.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Are there any places that 5-car units on SWR are needed for flexibility/resilience? I seem to recall the Kingston Bay platform coming up as somewhere a 10-car unit won't fit.

While Southeastern would potentially benefit from the passenger side, I can think of these problems:

1) Yet another new fleet that comes with more driver training and different maintenance needs. SE already have 3 fleets for Metro operation, a 4th is surely stretching complexity too far.
2) Another 5-car fleet is not helpful, SE needs more 4-car units to make 4/8/12; 376s and 707s can do 10-car needs.

If there was another operator that could use them, I'd say Southern maybe in with a shout. They are still down on units from the 313 + 455 withdrawal, while demand is being suppressed by the lower carriage count across the network. While this is a different fleet to add on for Southern too, they only have 2-3 fleet variants altogether so could take on a different one better than Southeastern. Put these on some key metro/suburban routes to allow more 3 and 4-car 377s to strengthen mainline and coastway services.

Kingston Bay and Aldershot to Ascot is about it. However, you can work off platform 2 with a 10-car train, which isn't a big issue. The 5 cars were mainly for off-peak services.

Or would the 458/4s be better units to send to Southeastern or Southern if WofE doesn't get the batteries with existing trains?

 

[swr444]

Kingston Bay and Aldershot to Ascot is about it. However, you can work off platform 2 with a 10-car train, which isn't a big issue. The 5 cars were mainly for off-peak services.

Or would the 458/4s be better units to send to Southeastern or Southern if WofE doesn't get the batteries with existing trains?

Clandon is used for turn arounds during engineering works and the point work is across the platform extensions so can only take a max of 8 cars.

 

[JonathanH]

They are still down on units from the 313 + 455 withdrawal, while demand is being suppressed by the lower carriage count across the network.

I think this point really ought to be put to bed now. Timetables have been adjusted on a number of routes to better focus the available rolling stock, and a number of 387s have arrived to deal with some pinch points. There is a new normal level of capacity on Southern routes which doesnt require as many vehicles as there were when the 313s and 455s were in the fleet.

Besides, if Southern do need some more rolling stock, the obvious source is reversing the current transfer of 377s to Southeastern.

 

[brad465]

Moving this over there for speculative discussion:

There’s a rumour going around at the moment saying that the 701/5s are going to be leaving SWR due to their software issues (and “compatibility”). Is there any truth to this claim?

If they have software issues that SWR don't want to deal with, then I doubt any other operator would be keen to take them on either, especially if they add extra cost to maintenance and training programmes through no fleet commonality (which would be the case at Southeastern and Southern), on top of fixing said software issues.

 

[BerkshireRails]

I was speaking to a member of a staff I know who said the 701/5s are a completely different train to 701/0s for some reasons.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I was speaking to a member of a staff I know who said the 701/5s are a completely different train to 701/0s for some reasons.

What I believe is that a 701 is actually two 5car units with very little left of a pair of facing cabs in the middle. The 701/0s can be split in two and each half moved separately for the purposes of shunting around a depot (istr the wheel lathe at Wimbledon is in a position where a full ten cars could not pass through). So it is likely that the software for a 701/5 is remarkably similar to each half of a 701/0.

I also think the 701/5s are at risk of being surplus on SWR since Covid. They did originally need 5car 701s as some stabling points cannot handle ten cars on one siding.

One hunch is that the 701/5s might replace the 458s although these are now converted back to 4car so broadly for longer distance work to ease the pressure on 450s.

At the rate of progress on 701/0s the 458s might be near to end of life by the time SWR gets to testing and implementing the 701/5s anyway !.

It is known that South Eastern are getting short of stock as the 465s/466s are near to end of life (some scrapped already). But would they want another microfleet instead of replacing all their 465s & 466s ?.
What will GBR allow ?.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Much of SE metro is a 10-car railway but I suspect a 10-car 701 (2 x 701/5) is longer than a 10-car EPB or Networker.

 

[PGAT]

Much of SE metro is a 10-car railway but I suspect a 10-car 701 (2 x 701/5) is longer than a 10-car EPB or Networker.

Is that an issue? Most of their routes can handle 12 cars

 

[stadler]

SWR need the entire 701/5 fleet. Keeping the full 60× 701/0 and 30x 701/5 would allow them to get rid of all of the 458 units and bring back those covid suspended services like the 2tph Dorking via Epsom services and the 2tph Guildford via Epsom services. So i think it is best for SWR to keep the entire 701/5 fleet.

 

[brad465]

Much of SE metro is a 10-car railway but I suspect a 10-car 701 (2 x 701/5) is longer than a 10-car EPB or Networker.

While I would not be surprised if the DfT dumped them on Southeastern, 701/5s going there will just be more hassle. They'd be yet another separate fleet on top of all the ones they have (there's not enough to withdraw all the remaining Networkers), and they'd have nothing in common with the other fleets in SE's possession, so is just another load of extra maintenance knowledge and training for all staff using them. They might work with Southern, who only have 3x fleets, of which 2 are relatively similar (compared to SE having 7), and they maybe able to send more 377s to Southeastern as a result, which would be adding to an already existing fleet type.

Thinking more outside the box, are there any places they could go and be converted to OHLE? If Northern don't take the 350/2s, maybe they could take these, if single 701/5s have as much capacity as 6-car 323 pairs.

 

[swr444]

This has been covered so many times. SWR need these units for engineering work turnarounds at clandon and Kingston using the Bay. Unless they suddenly decide to run a 4 450 during the works then the 701/5s are staying.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

This has been covered so many times. SWR need these units for engineering work turnarounds at clandon and Kingston using the Bay. Unless they suddenly decide to run a 4 450 during the works then the 701/5s are staying.

Which they could, realistically.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Which they could, realistically.

That seems like the most logical option as 450s go that way anyway for diversionary reasons.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

That seems like the most logical option as 450s go that way anyway for diversionary reasons.

Either way though, I think it's highly unlikely the 701/5s would be released.

 

[brad465]

Which they could, realistically.

That seems like the most logical option as 450s go that way anyway for diversionary reasons.

Not to mention SWR will have a glut of 450s once they're off suburban services they're not supposed to be doing, given these extra diagrams have not stopped the running of several 12-car formations across Alton, Basingstoke and Portsmouth Harbour diagrams right now. It also sounds like the 450 battery conversion idea is being put aside in favour of a combined fleet order of DMU/BEMUs with other TOCs.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Either way though, I think it's highly unlikely the 701/5s would be released.

The 701s were designed around a pre-covid timetable and as we have established that there are less services required, I can see single 450s doing the 701/5s workings as SWR hasn't even started training I have been told on them due to them being a separate train and the existing the 701s aren't the most reliable of traction as they are having door faults on a regular frequency.

 

[swr444]

The 701s were designed around a pre-covid timetable and as we have established that there are less services required, I can see single 450s doing the 701/5s workings as SWR hasn't even started training I have been told on them due to them being a separate train and the existing the 701s aren't the most reliable of traction as they are having door faults on a regular frequency.

Drivers are currently being trained to attach and detach the /5s when doing the 701 course. Although they will still need more training if they end up in service.

 

[43096]

Drivers are currently being trained to attach and detach the /5s when doing the 701 course. Although they will still need more training if they end up in service.

Why do they need more training?

 

[ScotGG]

There's 30 of the 5-car 701/5s so if all went to Southeastern that of course is miles off replacing the Networkers (120+ Class 465 and 26 466s in service).

It would see SE with:

30 x 707
36 x 376
100 ish 465s (perhaps a bit lower but no where near removal)
30 x 701

And that's just Metro routes!

When the 13x377s are all in service how many Networkers will still be needed?

 

[brad465]

There's 30 of the 5-car 701/5s so if all went to Southeastern that of course is miles off replacing the Networkers (120+ Class 465 and 26 466s in service).

It would see SE with:

30 x 707
36 x 376
100 ish 465s (perhaps a bit lower but no where near removal)
30 x 701

And that's just Metro routes!

When the 13x377s are all in service how many Networkers will still be needed?

If 701/5s did leave SWR, I think a better route would be to send them to Southern, which then send more 377s to Southeastern. The 701/5s would be better suited to some of Southern's suburban operations, particularly through better acceleration than 377s, while it wouldn't be a major burden on fleet and maintenance knowledge compared to Southeastern, as the former have 3 fleets, while the latter have 7 fleets. The 377s that go to Southeastern could be enough to takeover Tunbridge Wells' diagrams, potentially even making some of them 12-car, which would require a minimum of 15x 4-car equivalent.

 

[GEC465]

If 701/5s did leave SWR, I think a better route would be to send them to Southern, which then send more 377s to Southeastern. The 701/5s would be better suited to some of Southern's suburban operations, particularly through better acceleration than 377s, while it wouldn't be a major burden on fleet and maintenance knowledge compared to Southeastern, as the former have 3 fleets, while the latter have 7 fleets. The 377s that go to Southeastern could be enough to takeover Tunbridge Wells' diagrams, potentially even making some of them 12-car, which would require a minimum of 15x 4-car equivalent.

SE would be a better choice since the metro needs to get rid of the 465s especially the BRELs owing that those are basically having motor issues galore where 1 or more bogies have the motors isolated. It may be the other way round where the metcams are essentially finished if the 701s go to SE