Could someone explain why ASLEF want Sundays inside the working week?

[muz379]

The recent pay award to staff was the ideal opportunity for all sides to commit to, at the very least, discussing the issue in a realistic manner without having to agree to, or have imposed, anything, however that chance was missed.

I think unfortunately at the point that the government changed in July there was just no realistic prospect of any changes to T's&C's being able to be put on the table and considered . It was 3 years of pay claims that drivers were in dispute over, at that point the priority became resolving that dispute time had run out .

Had the last government sat down and put forward a set of sensible proposals in 2022 around bringing sundays inside the working week at operators that didn't already have such agreements then perhaps a deal could have been done . But proposing a single set of changes for all drivers accross the DFT TOC's and then doubling down on them when faced with a dispute was instead the course of action they took .

That can't be levelled at Drivers and as I said they've leveraged their position superbly, the other general grades didn't and haven't got that power hence the pay disparities from BR to now.
That is my point.

I think guards at least at some operators have leveraged their power over the years and whilst their remuneration doesn't match drivers is still reasonable at a lot of operators and they still do enjoy similar T's & C's , arguably the same can be said for signallers and some of the more specialist maintenance jobs at NWR . Signallers at the higher end of the grade structure for example come pretty close to drivers pay . Of course when you get flat percentage pay rises the gap widens . Hence why up until this recent settlement the RMT used to always negotiate an underpin as well so that those at the lower end of pay scales don't fall behind as much .

 

[father_jack]

I think it absolutely is a right to afford the same things year on year.

Why should anyone’s pay dwindle, when the cost of living rises? We all pay our taxes for an administration to keep inflation below a certain level.

The reason you take a job is to afford things; if money wasn’t a driver, we’d all work for free.

So yes, you absolutely do have a right for your wage packet to be worth the same as it was when you were taken on. You are not a depreciating asset and you are doing the employer a favour… that’s why they pay you, not the other way around.

Agree, about the houses comment; however if it was an option, you wouldn’t sell it for less voluntarily, right?
That’s why people add value to property, extensions etc. that’s a real world analogy for changing Ts&Cs.

On this forum in the opinion of a lot of contributors it's not.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Drivers 'pitiful' wages... whilst I agree that the base salary was very low, you also had many enhancements such as weekend / night shift supplement, mileage allowance, London weighting and many other additions which when accrued, added up to a pretty decent wage.

Though those enhancements were non-pensionable, hence the desire to incorporate many of them into basic pay as part of restructuring deals.

 

[Red Rover]

I think guards at least at some operators have leveraged their power over the years and whilst their remuneration doesn't match drivers is still reasonable at a lot of operators and they still do enjoy similar T's & C's , arguably the same can be said for signallers and some of the more specialist maintenance jobs at NWR . Signallers at the higher end of the grade structure for example come pretty close to drivers pay . Of course when you get flat percentage pay rises the gap widens

I totally agree, with the guards they've got hanging over their head of DOO and new stock, and the signallers the ROC's though, the railway will only employ Drivers and Cleaners if they had their way.

 

[PLY2AYS]

On this forum in the opinion of a lot of contributors it's not.

Which is a frankly ludicrous race to the bottom mentality.

 

[Krokodil]

The unions have never truly fully pushed for full compliment of staff, an uneasy alliance of the allowance of gaps to appear for rest day worked and Sundays being done, as a union man through and through I'd much rather a full compliment of staff, a fair weekly wage and no overtime ever allowed. It would cost too much though.

I don't think that any successful business in history has been run without any overtime whatsoever. If you want to completely ban overtime then you'll need to be overstaffed to an absolutely ridiculous degree to avoid cancellations when a combination of sickness, annual leave, incidents etc. all hit at the same time and you find yourself short. Much cheaper to pay the odd rest day, so long as it is the exception rather than routine.

 

[dk1]

I don't think that any successful business in history has been run without any overtime whatsoever. If you want to completely ban overtime then you'll need to be overstaffed to an absolutely ridiculous degree to avoid cancellations when a combination of sickness, annual leave, incidents etc. all hit at the same time and you find yourself short. Much cheaper to pay the odd rest day, so long as it is the exception rather than routine.

On the railway it’s more generally routine. I’ve found that to be consistent since I joined in 1984.

 

[Krokodil]

On the railway it’s more generally routine. I’ve found that to be consistent since I joined in 1984.

Some operators are heavily reliant on it, with some staff practically living at work. Where I am however there has been heavy recruitment over the last few years (ready for Sundays to go inside and for an uplift in the service) and particularly for the guards there are few RDs going, it's the odd day here or there. If there is someone working a RD almost every day then you need more staff.

 

[Red Rover]

I don't think that any successful business in history has been run without any overtime whatsoever. If you want to completely ban overtime then you'll need to be overstaffed to an absolutely ridiculous degree to avoid cancellations when a combination of sickness, annual leave, incidents etc. all hit at the same time and you find yourself short. Much cheaper to pay the odd rest day, so long as it is the exception rather than routine.

True, it’s hopeful and fanciful but should be the ideal of the union nonetheless, full employment, more members, more power and of course more money.

 

[dk1]

Some operators are heavily reliant on it, with some staff practically living at work. Where I am however there has been heavy recruitment over the last few years (ready for Sundays to go inside and for an uplift in the service) and particularly for the guards there are few RDs going, it's the odd day here or there. If there is someone working a RD almost every day then you need more staff.

Although a full establishment of drivers at my depot and an overspill link that is slowly filling up, we tend to have around 3-5 rest day workings daily. This can rise to 6-8 and upwards as we approach the weekend.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Oct 2024 ==

In fact I’ve been talked into working one tomorrow

 

[43066]

Although a full establishment of drivers at my depot and an overspill link that is slowly filling up, we tend to have around 3-5 rest day workings daily. This can rise to 6-8 and upwards as we approach the weekend.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Oct 2024 ==

It’s funny, my place has recruited heavily due to our (heavily delayed) new fleet coming in, and people have long been predicting overtime would dry up. Yet as quickly as people pass out it seems someone else has an incident or otherwise needs to be taken off track. So there’s still quite a bit around despite the depot establishment having increased significantly with no additional work.

In fact I’ve been talked into working one tomorrow

Same here!

 

[dk1]

It’s funny, my place has recruited heavily due to our (heavily delayed) new fleet coming in, and people have long been predicting overtime would dry up. Yet as quickly as people pass out it seems someone else has an incident or otherwise needs to be taken off track. So there’s still quite a bit around despite the depot establishment having increased significantly with no additional work.



Same here!

Nice one. It never has and never will be any different mate

 

[Surreytraveller]

Guaranteed contractually and guaranteed in practice can be very different things to people like mortgage providers

If you're required to work your rostered Sundays, then it is guaranteed contractually

 

[43066]

Nice one. It never has and never will be any different mate

I agree.

Looking at our daily sheets for this week it seems your other prediction about the usual suspects continuing to sign up for as much overtime as they possibly can, despite the backpay and salary increase, was also right on the money .

 

[12LDA28C]

If you're required to work your rostered Sundays, then it is guaranteed contractually

If Sundays are outside the working week then they are still classed as overtime and it would still be possible to not work all or any of them depending on a TOCs particular Ts & Cs.

 

[dk1]

I agree.

Looking at our daily sheets for this week it seems your other prediction about the usual suspects continuing to sign up for as much overtime as they possibly can, despite the backpay and salary increase, was also right on the money .

Haha yes. For many they just can't resist the extra overtime no matter how high the rate of pay or how much back pay went into the bank.

 

[PLY2AYS]

If Sundays are outside the working week then they are still classed as overtime and it would still be possible to not work all or any of them depending on a TOCs particular Ts & Cs.

Agreed.

Know for a fact GWR drivers have an “obligation to work their rostered Sundays” but realistically it’s unenforceable. They’re not pensioned, outside of the contracted 35hr working week… very easy to just claim fatigue as an excuse and not work them. Nothing can be done about it… pointless clause.

Likely someone will cover for you regardless, if prearranged.

Ironically, as you well know, having moved I have no commitment and am keen to work (some) Sundays. Amazing what a company ethos and good working relationships/work content can do for morale and good will!

 

[trentside]

Although a full establishment of drivers at my depot and an overspill link that is slowly filling up, we tend to have around 3-5 rest day workings daily. This can rise to 6-8 and upwards as we approach the weekend.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Oct 2024 ==

In fact I’ve been talked into working one tomorrow

I was recently told that the arrival of a dozen or so new drivers over the next year would finally end rest day working. Gave me a chuckle, as I got told the same when my cohort came through over the course of a year. We’re now similar to you, and I’m also working a rest day this week!

 

[dk1]

I was recently told that the arrival of a dozen or so new drivers over the next year would finally end rest day working. Gave me a chuckle, as I got told the same when my cohort came through over the course of a year. We’re now similar to you, and I’m also working a rest day this week!

I would’ve asked them if they’d like to wager a bet on it. Only thing that can stop rest day working is ASLEF not sanctioning a RDW agreement with each individual operator.

 

[Horizon22]

I would’ve asked them if they’d like to wager a bet on it. Only thing that can stop rest day working is ASLEF not sanctioning a RDW agreement with each individual operator.

And watch the service fall apart with multiple cancellations!

 

[dk1]

And watch the service fall apart with multiple cancellations!

Exactly that. Thankfully common sense has prevailed with most. I noted very few if any cancellations on Avanti this last weekend. Why the previous government created such a hostile environment will forever escape me.

I should add First Group to that too as it seemed Avanti & Trans-Pennine Express management were rotten to the core.

 

[Krokodil]

Nice one. It never has and never will be any different mate

Like I say, substantial increases in the link here have made the sheets go from "RDW easily available every day" to "the odd RDW here or there".

If Sundays are outside the working week then they are still classed as overtime and it would still be possible to not work all or any of them depending on a TOCs particular Ts & Cs.

Committed Sundays cuts both ways. They're obligated to give it to you, so the only risk is that you may lose some through sickness. Otherwise you can only lose it voluntarily - which you wouldn’t do if you depended on it. Mortgage lenders tend to include overtime in their affordability calculation, so long as it's fairly consistent over a period of time. Not that stretching oneself is advisable, of course.

Overtime does entitle you to more paid annual leave (following an ECJ ruling that paid leave should represent average earnings, not just the contracted minimum). For us that just means a lump sum in the beginning of the second calendar year following the year being averaged.

Pensions are where those with Sundays outside lose out though. Overtime isn't pensionable.

 

[12LDA28C]

Committed Sundays cuts both ways. They're obligated to give it to you, so the only risk is that you may lose some through sickness. Otherwise you can only lose it voluntarily - which you wouldn’t do if you depended on it. Mortgage lenders tend to include overtime in their affordability calculation, so long as it's fairly consistent over a period of time. Not that stretching oneself is advisable, of course.

Overtime does entitle you to more paid annual leave (following an ECJ ruling that paid leave should represent average earnings, not just the contracted minimum). For us that just means a lump sum in the beginning of the second calendar year following the year being averaged.

Pensions are where those with Sundays outside lose out though. Overtime isn't pensionable.

Agree with all of that and as you say, it's very nice getting a nice bonus in the pay packet in January just after a big spend-up at Christmas.

Remember though that not all TOCs have committed Sundays which are really the worst of all worlds with staff obliged to work them as enforced overtime if no cover can be found. Fortunately some Operators have a rather fairer system with Sunday outside with drivers guaranteed the day off if they apply far enough in advance, without having to resort to finding someone to cover their shift. Vacant turns on Sundays caused by this process are generally covered by the overtime grabbers - everybody's happy.

 

[Bald Rick]

Pensions are where those with Sundays outside lose out though. Overtime isn't pensionable.

Many drivers will put part of their Sunday earnigns into the pension as an additional voluntary contribution, though.

 

[muz379]

I totally agree, with the guards they've got hanging over their head of DOO and new stock, and the signallers the ROC's though, the railway will only employ Drivers and Cleaners if they had their way.

The threat of DOO might be prevalent at some TOC's , but I think at the higher paying TOC's tbh its probably not as big a threat ironically. Changes to the role of the guard on the actual train and or training no doubt will I think be something this government wishes to do but the grade will still exist in some form .

ROC's aren't really a threat to signallers , partly because box's transitioning to ROC's haven't happened at anywhere near the speed expected . And in some cases because of consolidated areas of control the jobs at the ROC's tend to be of a higher grade. It does mean fewer signalling jobs , but the grade and its bargaining power still exists even with ROC's .

I don't think that any successful business in history has been run without any overtime whatsoever. If you want to completely ban overtime then you'll need to be overstaffed to an absolutely ridiculous degree to avoid cancellations when a combination of sickness, annual leave, incidents etc. all hit at the same time and you find yourself short. Much cheaper to pay the odd rest day, so long as it is the exception rather than routine.

Indeed even with a full complement of staff and reasonable spare cover rest day working still has a place in facilitating larger training projects like a new route or traction for a depot . Which is why often RDW agreements will be sanctioned for training purposes . The problems come when you then rely on that RDW agreement to actually run the job day to day .

 

[Krokodil]

Many drivers will put part of their Sunday earnigns into the pension as an additional voluntary contribution, though.

Which the company won't contribute to. One of the reasons I voted for Sundays inside because the pay rise agreed is pensionable, and of course the limit on how much I'm allowed to pay into BRASS increases too.

 

[Bald Rick]

Which the company won't contribute to.

True, but the AVCs are effectively a Defined contribution element to the pension, just like most of the working population have. Accepting it’s (probably) not as good a deal as with an increase in pensionable salary*, but it is still a decent way of adding good value to the pension.

* depending on the thpe of pension and the scheme rules of course.

 

[43066]

If Sundays are outside the working week then they are still classed as overtime and it would still be possible to not work all or any of them depending on a TOCs particular Ts & Cs.

Yes and - rightly or wrongly - will be treated as differently by mortgage providers. Even things like London weighting are questioned when they’re split out on the pay check.

True, but the AVCs are effectively a Defined contribution element to the pension, just like most of the working population have. Accepting it’s (probably) not as good a deal as with an increase in pensionable salary*, but it is still a decent way of adding good value to the pension.

* depending on the thpe of pension and the scheme rules of course.

And nowhere near as good as most train drivers get from their basic pension. So how is that relevant?

 

[Bald Rick]

And nowhere near as good as most train drivers get from their basic pension. So how is that relevant?

Sorry I’m not explaining myself well.

All I’m saying is that not having Sundays inside does not preclude anyone from making additional pension contributions.

 

[Harpo]

Drivers 'pitiful' wages... whilst I agree that the base salary was very low, you also had many enhancements such as weekend / night shift supplement, mileage allowance, London weighting and many other additions which when accrued, added up to a pretty decent wage.

Very much depended where you were. At most freight depots, Sunday work, aside from shed turns, was dependent on the weekend ballast programme.

Mileage was usually top link territory and only a few freight jobs scraped in, like Southampton to Ripple Lane and back.

Also, away from London, there were depots with very old seniority dates (when you needed to have started if there was a driving vacancy) where many retired as second men.