Could someone explain why ASLEF want Sundays inside the working week?

[Red Rover]

Not all grades have that leverage, nevertheless it should be an aspiration for all railway employees to have 2 days off together if they wish every week. Cost does but shouldn't come into it.

 

[Falcon1200]

Cost does but shouldn't come into it.

However because our railways are almost, without exception, heavily subsidised, cost does, and always will, come into it. If there was a way to bring Sundays into the basic working week without greatly increasing the cost of providing the service it should be done. The recent pay award to staff was the ideal opportunity for all sides to commit to, at the very least, discussing the issue in a realistic manner without having to agree to, or have imposed, anything, however that chance was missed.

 

[dk1]

However because our railways are almost, without exception, heavily subsidised, cost does, and always will, come into it. If there was a way to bring Sundays into the basic working week without greatly increasing the cost of providing the service it should be done. The recent pay award to staff was the ideal opportunity for all sides to commit to, at the very least, discussing the issue in a realistic manner without having to agree to, or have imposed, anything, however that chance was missed.

Oh I don’t know. Meetings start next month I believe for the April 2025 pay award. I’m looking at early retirement next summer so a hefty increase with Sundays in the working week would suit me just fine

 

[43066]

The recent pay award to staff was the ideal opportunity for all sides to commit to, at the very least, discussing the issue in a realistic manner without having to agree to, or have imposed, anything, however that chance was missed.

Now that relations have been reset, there’s no reason for that discussion not to be had in the next round of negotiations, which are commencing imminently.

 

[Red Rover]

However because our railways are almost, without exception, heavily subsidised, cost does, and always will, come into it. If there was a way to bring Sundays into the basic working week without greatly increasing the cost of providing the service it should be done. The recent pay award to staff was the ideal opportunity for all sides to commit to, at the very least, discussing the issue in a realistic manner without having to agree to, or have imposed, anything, however that chance was missed.

Because governments as it stands know the pendulum of power since privatisation has firmly swung in the favour of train drivers, no other grade but fair play, they leveraged their way to the very top.

 

[chuff chuff]

However because our railways are almost, without exception, heavily subsidised, cost does, and always will, come into it. If there was a way to bring Sundays into the basic working week without greatly increasing the cost of providing the service it should be done. The recent pay award to staff was the ideal opportunity for all sides to commit to, at the very least, discussing the issue in a realistic manner without having to agree to, or have imposed, anything, however that chance was missed.

On scotrail at least discussions have already started,didn't start to well apparently but should be more meetings soon with sometime in 2027 for it to come in if agreeable to the members.

 

[12LDA28C]

Because governments as it stands know the pendulum of power since privatisation has firmly swung in the favour of train drivers, no other grade but fair play, they leveraged their way to the very top.

This is nonsense. The Labour Government simply settled a dispute that was prolonged by the Tories for no reason other than anti-Union ideology taking precedence over common sense and pragmatism. Things will no doubt get back to normal now with any changes to Ts & Cs and increases in productivity being exchanged for an associated increase in pay during collective bargaining negotiations.

 

[Red Rover]

It’s far from nonsense.
1) How much have driver salaries gone up since the mid 90’s?
2 How much have they gone up in relation to other general grades?
ASLEF knew when kpi’s and performance bonuses came into play with TOC’s their leverage would increase hugely, I remember the discussions about it.

 

[PLY2AYS]

It’s far from nonsense.
1) How much have driver salaries gone up since the mid 90’s?
2 How much have they gone up in relation to other general grades?
ASLEF knew when kpi’s and performance bonuses came into play with TOC’s their leverage would increase hugely, I remember the discussions about it.

If an employer changes the Ts&Cs of your contract, you’re sure as hell going to want to discuss the renumeration.

You’re not going to give up your spare time for free, or longer hours for the same pay, etc etc.

As well as inflation… workers have the right to be paid proportionately the same as when they initially took the role… exactly the same reason you wouldn’t sell your house for the amount you initially paid for it.

 

[Goldfish62]

If an employer changes the Ts&Cs of your contract, you’re sure as hell going to want to discuss the renumeration.

You’re not going to give up your spare time for free, or longer hours for the same pay, etc etc.

As well as inflation… workers have the right to be paid proportionately the same as when they initially took the role… exactly the same reason you wouldn’t sell your house for the amount you initially paid for it.

ASLEF have very effectively used market forces in the privatised rail industry to push driver wages up by far more than other grades have achieved because the huge amount of industrial leverage they have - can't blame them at all.

Re the highlighted bit, there is no automatic right. There never has been. Your pay is what it is when you're taken on and any increase has to be negotiated/fought for as necessary. That's the same with any job in any industry.

And plenty of people make a loss when selling their houses.

 

[12LDA28C]

It’s far from nonsense.
1) How much have driver salaries gone up since the mid 90’s?
2 How much have they gone up in relation to other general grades?
ASLEF knew when kpi’s and performance bonuses came into play with TOC’s their leverage would increase hugely, I remember the discussions about it.

Drivers' salaries have increased in line with inflation, since their pay rises were usually directly linked to RPI. Any increase much above RPI has been as a result of productivity increases or 'selling' of Ts & Cs which is worth some value to the employer. If other industries' or grades' salaries have failed to do the same, that is hardly ASLEF's fault.

 

[Red Rover]

I didn’t say it was but anyone who worked under BR will know that the drivers salary has gone up vastly more (few conditions sold but tied to performance) other grades, not rpi, not inflation, paid so they don’t go on strike, as I’ve said they’ve leveraged well, didn’t ASLEF take itself out of the general grades annual pay review? If so, why?

 

[Harpo]

I didn’t say it was but anyone who worked under BR will know that the drivers salary has gone up vastly more (fee conditions sold but tied to performance) other grades, not rpi, not inflation, paid so they don’t go on strike, as I’ve said they’ve leveraged well, didn’t ASLEF take itself out of the general grades annual pay review? If so, why?

An alternative view:

TOCs and FOCs leveraged driver renumeration themselves through salary escalations aimed at recruiting qualified drivers rather than growing their own.

Drivers’ pay eventually arrived at the value that suits train operating companies minus the cost of initial training.

The incredible variety of T&Cs across train operators also shows just how flexible ASLEF has been in meeting the individual needs of businesses.

This view is unlikely to be heard in the Daily Mail/Telegrah/Express.

 

[Red Rover]

An alternative view:

TOCs and FOCs leveraged driver renumeration themselves through salary escalations aimed at recruiting qualified drivers rather than growing their own.

Drivers’ pay eventually arrived at the value that suits train operating companies minus the cost of initial training.

The incredible variety of T&Cs across train operators also shows just how flexible ASLEF has been in meeting the individual needs of businesses.

This view is unlikely to be heard in the Daily Mail/Telegrah/Express.

The unions have never truly fully pushed for full compliment of staff, an uneasy alliance of the allowance of gaps to appear for rest day worked and Sundays being done, as a union man through and through I'd much rather a full compliment of staff, a fair weekly wage and no overtime ever allowed. It would cost too much though.
That is all true but it still boils down to leverage, leverage that all could have benefited from it we all remained under general grades collective bargaining, capitalism and individualism was always going to happen when worth of a persons job was weighed against the arrival of a train and the penalties ensuing, we are where we are though.

 

[12LDA28C]

I didn’t say it was but anyone who worked under BR will know that the drivers salary has gone up vastly more (fee conditions sold but tied to performance) other grades, not rpi, not inflation, paid so they don’t go on strike, as I’ve said they’ve leveraged well, didn’t ASLEF take itself out of the general grades annual pay review? If so, why?

Yes, driver's pay increases were directly linked to inflation every year. If you believe that wages shouldn't go up in line with the cost of living then that's a strange viewpoint. 'Paid so they don't go on strike' is just anti-union nonsense or perhaps just jealousy towards drivers. If ASLEF is so strong and has so much leverage, perhaps you could explain why they've just accepted a pay deal for the last three years that is well below the inflation rate over the same period?

 

[Red Rover]

Yes, driver's pay increases were directly linked to inflation every year. If you believe that wages shouldn't go up in line with the cost of living then that's a strange viewpoint. 'Paid so they don't go on strike' is just anti-union nonsense. If ASLEF is so strong and has so much leverage, perhaps you could explain why they've just accepted a pay deal for the last three years that is well below the inflation rate over the same period?

That is far from anti union nonsense, the train operators that aren't under the government are permanently on watch for dispute and strikes where the trains won't operate, other grades not so much or not at all.
The last 3 years have seen wild increases and decreases in rpi and also inflation. What toc's do you want to discuss?

 

[12LDA28C]

That is far from anti union nonsense, the train operators that aren't under the government are permanently on watch for dispute and strikes where the trains won't operate, other grades not so much or not at all.
The last 3 years have seen wild increases and decreases in rpi and also inflation. What toc's do you want to discuss?

Quite right, now let's see - take a pay anniversary date of April that would feature an increase based on the February RPI figure, as an example:

RPI Feb 2022 8.2%. Drivers' pay rise April 2022 - 5.0%.
RPI Feb 2023 13.8%. Drivers' pay rise April 2023 - 4.75%.
RPI Feb 2024 4.5%. Drivers' pay rise April 2024 - 4.5%.

Hard to argue with the figures, no?

Interesting that you feel entitled to speak on behalf of drivers whilst presumably not being one yourself?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Quite right, now let's see: Take a pay anniversary date of April that would feature an increase based on the February RPI figure.

RPI Feb 2022 8.2%. Drivers' pay rise April 2022 - 5.0%.
RPI Feb 2023 13.8%. Drivers' pay rise April 2023 - 4.75%.
RPI Feb 2024 4.5%. Driver's pay rise April 2024 - 4.5%.

And for completeness:

RPI Feb 2020 2.5%. (Most) Drivers' pay rise April 2020 - 0.0%.
RPI Feb 2021 1.4%. Drivers' pay rise April 2021 - 0.0%.

 

[Red Rover]

Quite right, now let's see: Take a pay anniversary date of April that would feature an increase based on the February RPI figure.

RPI Feb 2022 8.2%. Drivers' pay rise April 2022 - 5.0%.
RPI Feb 2023 13.8%. Drivers' pay rise April 2023 - 4.75%.
RPI Feb 2024 4.5%. Driver's pay rise April 2024 - 4.5%.

Hard to argue with the figures, no?

Interesting that you feel entitled to speak on behalf of drivers whilst presumably not being one yourself?

What TOC's though, there'll be a few drivers who didn't get that paid award, also what hours were lowered? Anything else thrown in?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Oct 2024 ==

And for completeness:

RPI Feb 2020 2.5%. (Most) Drivers' pay rise April 2020 - 0.0%.
RPI Feb 2021 1.4%. Drivers' pay rise April 2021 - 0.0%.

Most railway staff on the lowest wage got that also.

 

[PLY2AYS]

ASLEF have very effectively used market forces in the privatised rail industry to push driver wages up by far more than other grades have achieved because the huge amount of industrial leverage they have - can't blame them at all.

Re the highlighted bit, there is no automatic right. There never has been. Your pay is what it is when you're taken on and any increase has to be negotiated/fought for as necessary. That's the same with any job in any industry.

And plenty of people make a loss when selling their houses.

I think it absolutely is a right to afford the same things year on year.

Why should anyone’s pay dwindle, when the cost of living rises? We all pay our taxes for an administration to keep inflation below a certain level.

The reason you take a job is to afford things; if money wasn’t a driver, we’d all work for free.

So yes, you absolutely do have a right for your wage packet to be worth the same as it was when you were taken on. You are not a depreciating asset and you are doing the employer a favour… that’s why they pay you, not the other way around.

Agree, about the houses comment; however if it was an option, you wouldn’t sell it for less voluntarily, right?
That’s why people add value to property, extensions etc. that’s a real world analogy for changing Ts&Cs.

 

[12LDA28C]

What TOC's though, there'll be a few drivers who didn't get that paid award, also what hours were lowered? Anything else thrown in?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Oct 2024 ==

That's for all TOCs under DfT control which is 16 Operators. Note though that some TOCs have different pay anniversary dates and this was just one example. It was a 'no-strings' offer with no change in working hours or other Ts & Cs although a commitment to engage in discussion about any changes to Ts & Cs at a later date was agreed. This has already been covered ad nauseum in various threads on this forum and in the media elsewhere, all the relevant information is widely available.

 

[Red Rover]

I think it absolutely is a right to afford the same things year on year.

Why should anyone’s pay dwindle, when the cost of living rises? We all pay our taxes for an administration to keep inflation below a certain level.

The reason you take a job is to afford things; if money wasn’t a driver, we’d all work for free.

So yes, you absolutely do have a right for your wage packet to be worth the same as it was when you were taken on. You are not a depreciating asset and you are doing the employer a favour… that’s why they pay you, not the other way around.

I agree with all of that, and that is my point, due to privatisation Drivers have leveraged their position due to kpi's and operators striving to have a right time railway without penalty has left them needing to keep the trains running, look at the pitiful Drivers wages beforehand?
Why did the Drivers come out of the general grades collective bargaining?
How many jobs on the railway have been outsourced? Why? Because they can, they can't do that with a Driver can they? That is my point.
All the power to them but it doesn't make it from a socialist point correct, from a business ASLEF membership point of view of course it does but for the other general grades?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Oct 2024 ==

That's for all TOCs under DfT control which is 16 Operators. Note though that some TOCs have different pay anniversary dates and this was just one example. It was a 'no-strings' offer with no change in working hours or other Ts & Cs although a commitment to engage in discussion about any changes to Ts & Cs at a later date was agreed. This has already been covered ad nauseum in various threads on this forum and in the media elsewhere, all the relevant information is widely available.

Yes so not the others, have a look at their increases, conditions and hours compared to the general grades.

 

[12LDA28C]

I agree with all of that, and that is my point, due to privatisation Drivers have leveraged their position due to kpi's and operators striving to have a right time railway without penalty has left them needing to keep the trains running, look at the pitiful Drivers wages beforehand?

Drivers 'pitiful' wages... whilst I agree that the base salary was very low, you also had many enhancements such as weekend / night shift supplement, mileage allowance, London weighting and many other additions which when accrued, added up to a pretty decent wage.

 

[PLY2AYS]

All the power to them but it doesn't make it from a socialist point correct, from a business ASLEF membership point of view of course it does but for the other general grades?

So your qualm is with the weaker representation of the other unions then?

In the same way I’m frustrated that nurses and health care workers didn’t get anywhere near the pay deal they should have got…
They also didn’t turn up to ballot for their second vote.
Thats unfair, agreed; but its not down to ASLEF to represent for any other grade than drivers.

 

[12LDA28C]

Yes so not the others, have a look at their increases, conditions and hours compared to the general grades.

Which TOCs specifically are you referring to? The recent pay agreement covers the vast majority of TOCs in England.

 

[chuff chuff]

I seem to remember Aslef being rather skint wanted to represent any grade on BR but his led to nur/rmt (can't remember exactly when) complained to the TUC and aslef were told they couldn't. So any time I hear there should only be one train crew union I bring this up,hopefully it's an accurate memory.

 

[6Gman]

An alternative view:

TOCs and FOCs leveraged driver renumeration themselves through salary escalations aimed at recruiting qualified drivers rather than growing their own.

Drivers’ pay eventually arrived at the value that suits train operating companies minus the cost of initial training.

The incredible variety of T&Cs across train operators also shows just how flexible ASLEF has been in meeting the individual needs of businesses.

This view is unlikely to be heard in the Daily Mail/Telegrah/Express.

This, I believe, is the more important point.

It was even happening to a degree under sectorisation with (e.g.) Regional Railways bearing the cost of initial training and staff then transferring to Inter City operators.

 

[Red Rover]

I seem to remember Aslef being rather skint wanted to represent any grade on BR but his led to nur/rmt (can't remember exactly when) complained to the TUC and aslef were told they couldn't. So any time I hear there should only be one train crew union I bring this up,hopefully it's an accurate memory.

Privatisation made them wealthy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Oct 2024 ==

Which TOCs specifically are you referring to? The recent pay agreement covers the vast majority of TOCs in England.

Well, the others that aren't under OLR.

 

[chuff chuff]

Privatisation made them wealthy.

Yeah I know I was/am one of them from the good old BR days.Companies have to take their share though,throwing money at the drivers to get rid of all those Spanish practices and bumping up rates to take drivers from other companies rather than pay to train their own.
Have we used our position to increase our take home pay,too right we have and why not.I know the workers weren't supposed to do well out of privatisation and that stuck in the throats of some politicians.

 

[Red Rover]

That can't be levelled at Drivers and as I said they've leveraged their position superbly, the other general grades didn't and haven't got that power hence the pay disparities from BR to now.
That is my point.