Could reversals on the Caledonian Sleeper viably be avoided so flatbeds could be introduced?

[Bletchleyite]

At 3am? A premium service doesn't wake you up in the middle of the night to ask you to turn around, with the train unable to move if someone's second word is "off".

The problem with the Cally is the reversal in the middle of the night. Most other night trains don't have this issue or it can be reasonably easily avoided by running routes not involving a reversal. For the Cally to do that it'd need to switch to the ECML.

A night train from Hamburg to Munich does not suffer this issue - no mid journey reversal is necessary.

Would this not be fixable, at a moderate penalty to journey time, by going around the south sub prior to arrival in Waverley?

Is the South Sub electrified? If not this could be awkward.

What about the Lowlander at Carstairs? I guess you would have to move the split to Carlisle?

It's mentioned in another thread that CS are again looking at flatbeds - are they looking at these options, does anyone know, or is there another mitigation to the neck injury issue?

 

[AlterEgo]

CS simply submitted a design which didn't comply with crashworthiness standards, and the mitigations involved meant they felt the business model didn't work out as it reduced the capacity of the carriage.

They are looking once again at the idea, but I rather suspect it is in light of being able to charge more now they know the price points on the train as it has been running for some years now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

CS simply submitted a design which didn't comply with crashworthiness standards, and the mitigations involved meant they felt the business model didn't work out as it reduced the capacity of the carriage.

Is there any documentation of what they proposed and what they would have to have done to comply? I'm sure I recall reading that they would have had to put the beds across the width of the coach to comply, which is back to the head injury thing?

Could this be FoI-ed now they are a Government body perhaps? Or does that not apply to Scotland/would be commercial in confidence?

 

[Dr Hoo]

With the number of times that the CS gets diverted, including at Wembley for East Coast diversions, I can’t see how reversals could be guaranteed not to occur.

 

[JonathanH]

There is a turntable at Fort William and triangle at Inverness, but I don't think putting individual carriages around either (noting the limited operational length of the available platform at Inverness) is going to be practical.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a turntable at Fort William and triangle at Inverness, but I don't think putting individual carriages around either is going to be practical.

In terms of turning the flatbeds to face the other way for the journey back, making them rotate within the coach is likely the solution. That's what most Asian countries do with all types of train seat and it's a perfectly viable option, it just means your seat pitch can't be tighter than the width of a row of seats.

The issue is more avoiding reversals in the middle of the night.

 

[zwk500]

Is the South Sub electrified? If not this could be awkward.

No, but this just means the Sub would need to be used by the portions rather than the full set, which isn't that big a deal.

What about the Lowlander at Carstairs? I guess you would have to move the split to Carlisle?

'least change' option would be to propel the Edinburgh portion between Carstairs South Jn and the station, using the avoiding curve to avoid turning the train. Otherwise a direct route would be available via Shotts or Falkirk Grahamston if the additional costs of running another loco and driver to Carlisle weren't worth it.

When diverting via the ECML from Euston, there'd be an issue although the very short distance from Euston to Wembley may be permitted to run 'head first'. Now that the highlander has a Birmingham call, it could do the loop via Aston and New Street to divert via Debry but would need to change to diesel traction.

 

[Mainline421]

That's what most Asian countries do with all types of train seat

It's really not that common outside of Japan, and high speed trains in China (admittedly plus some trains in Vietnam, and South Korea in first class only). Asia is a massive continent don't forget.

 

[WideRanger]

it just means your seat pitch can't be tighter than the width of a row of seats.

Just a pedantry point. On the Shinkansen, the seat pitch is tighter than the width of the rows of 3 seats. When they turn around (automatically), there is a clever mechanism that means that rows don't all rotate at the same time. This effectively means that it works as long as the width is narrower than the gap between every other row.

 

[mmh]

I'll admit I've never been on a sleeper train so have no idea, but I feel someone needs to explain this concept of turning a bed around to me. I've never done this at home, if you wanted to you'd just put the pillows at the other end.

 

[Class15]

When diverting via the ECML from Euston, there'd be an issue although the very short distance from Euston to Wembley may be permitted to run 'head first'. Now that the highlander has a Birmingham call, it could do the loop via Aston and New Street to divert via Debry but would need to change to diesel traction.

Or just start the train from Kings Cross.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'll admit I've never been on a sleeper train so have no idea, but I feel someone needs to explain this concept of turning a bed around to me. I've never done this at home, if you wanted to you'd just put the pillows at the other end.

More of a plane thing, they typically are wider at the top end and have privacy screens there.

 

[The Planner]

Or just start the train from Kings Cross.

They arent massive fans of doing that unless they have no option.

 

[zwk500]

Or just start the train from Kings Cross.

That restricts the train length, and therefore capacity, so the requirement to divert via the ECML from Euston would still exist.

 

[Class15]

They arent massive fans of doing that unless they have no option.

Okay - how about go from Euston but only open up the ‘pod’ coaches for service at Finsbury Park?

Either way, nobody is going to be fast asleep between Euston and Wembley, so I’m included to agree with @zwk500.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Sep 2026 ==

That restricts the train length, and therefore capacity, so the requirement to divert via the ECML from Euston would still exist.

If this is, say, on a random weekend in February, how full actually is the train? Is it really such a disaster to run at reduced length?

Nobody is proposing this for the height of summer.

 

[Zomboid]

If platform length at Kings Cross is the issue, then there's track in place (don't know about signals etc) to give access to the ECML and WCML at St Pancras. Don't think there's much in the way of departures going on at the kind of time that the sleeper would go, though arrivals in the morning might be trickier.

 

[SynthD]

Either way, nobody is going to be fast asleep between Euston and Wembley

But they may be from Wembley to Euston in the morning.

they typically are wider at the top end and have privacy screens there.

Are those points avoidable? A consistent width and fold down screens at both ends?

Don't think there's much in the way of departures going on at the kind of time that the sleeper would go, though arrivals in the morning might be trickier.

There's no departures at that time because it's part of the HS1 nightly closure. There is also the question of how to access a long, Eurostar, platform for a domestic service.

 

[zwk500]

If this is, say, on a random weekend in February, how full actually is the train? Is it really such a disaster to run at reduced length?

Probably, given CS require approximately £1 in support for every £1 revenue they make (or at least did a couple of years ago).

Nobody is proposing this for the height of summer.

The problem with operations is that nobody proposes a tree to fall across the line, or bridge to be smashed into by a lorry, but you still have to plan for it.

 

[Class15]

Probably, given CS require approximately £1 in support for every £1 revenue they make (or at least did a couple of years ago).

But if the grain isn’t full, please explain why running it at reduced length is such a problem.

The problem with operations is that nobody proposes a tree to fall across the line, or bridge to be smashed into by a lorry, but you still have to plan for it.

It’s been said on here many, many times that the ECML diversion can’t be done ad hoc in disruption - it needs a lot of planning.

 

[zwk500]

But they may be from Wembley to Euston in the morning.

However, the distance is short enough and speed low enough that the risk may still be within acceptable limits.

There's no departures at that time because it's part of the HS1 nightly closure. There is also the question of how to access a long, Eurostar, platform for a domestic service.

For the trains, there's enough track from the WCML and ECML to access all 5 international platforms. AFAIK the Signalling hasn't been commissioned, but very happy to be corrected! Apparently there's platforms for more international services, although CS might need to drop people off and get out a bit quicker than it does at Euston. Not sure if purely UK moves would be allowed with just TPWS/AWS or if they'd need KVB as well. You'd also need to handle the gap to the international platforms (715mm high and further from the rail)

For passengers it's more complicated - the platforms would need to be secured off from the remaining international ones. Ideally you'd use platform 10 with domestic access from the platform level through the glass screen, with platform 9 not used so that you just have to secure the buffer stop ends and bottom of the escalators. However, that would mean platform capacity is significantly more restricted. There are ways and means to do it with basically any option if there's enough will, but all of them are very complex.

But if the grain isn’t full, please explain why running it at reduced length is such a problem.

Because even if the train isn't full, if even 1 bed can't be sold that would otherwise be, it's desparately needed revenue being left on the table.

It’s been said on here many, many times that the ECML diversion can’t be done ad hoc in disruption - it needs a lot of planning.

It can't be done at the drop of a hat but it could be done short-notice in the event of something lasting a couple of days.