New night train start-up - Nox

[LUYMun]

Just to confirm, the locomotive traction and onboard staffing will be provided by TRI Train Rental GmbH, which could be powered by a Class 110, 111, 145 or 182.

 

[Mike395]

I'm intrigued by those beds that are in the direction of travel - I thought they'd be a no-no for the railway? Or am I thinking about rules that only exist in Britain but not elsewhere in Europe?

The NightJet NG single sleeper cabins use direction-of-travel beds, so they’re fine in at least the majority of Western Europe.

 

[Sorcerer]

I'm quite impressed with the final product after having watched Simply Railway's YouTube video on the subject. I think the seats that convert into beds might be a decent compromise if the alternative is either regular seating which goes against the intended business model, or exclusively expensive lofts which might make it less viable as a start-up without the financial backing of other rail services like OBB NightJet has.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The NightJet NG single sleeper cabins use direction-of-travel beds, so they’re fine in at least the majority of Western Europe.

There were also the former DB Talgo sets with the "Kajueteliegewagen", a bit like the Thai ones with beds along the length of the train. One of those was the best night's sleep I've had on a night train - I find side to side means blood alternating to head and feet as we go round corners which keeps me awake.

 

[Gaelan]

Do the trains reverse? Head first is the issue.

They're charging an extra fiver for a bed facing the direction of travel, which implies there are beds that aren't.

 

[AlterEgo]

They're charging an extra fiver for a bed facing the direction of travel, which implies there are beds that aren't.

That's correct. Head first beds aren't a concept killing issue in and of themselves - Caledonian Sleeper are looking into the prospect of installing them once more.

 

[Sorcerer]

Will head first beds be much of an issue in this particular instance? I might be mistaken but wasn't part of the new business model that the trains would be more direct compared to existing sleeper trains to avoid potential delays mid-route? Or did that only apply to trains joining and decoupling? It's been a while since I watched the original video talking about the idea.

 

[Gaelan]

Caledonian Sleeper are looking into the prospect of installing them once more.

That's very interesting, is there more detail about this somewhere?

 

[AlterEgo]

That's very interesting, is there more detail about this somewhere?

Interview with the Ops Director:

https://www.trains.com/pro/passenger/uks-caledonian-sleeper-looks-to-the-future/

Eastwood, in discussing the design process for the current equipment, said there had been serious consideration to developing “pod” seating for the train’s seated coach — think something like a business-class airline seat, “somewhere between a seat and a room. It gives you that space where you could perhaps get a better sleep.” [The troubled California high-speed rail project has included such an option in conceptional designs for its equipment.]

That concept was dropped when designers were unable to come up with something that met industry safety and crashworthiness standards. But the idea is one both he and Marshall mentioned as something they’d like to revisit, perhaps during a refresh of the Sleeper fleet.

Essentially head first is not a concept killer though it is possible to produce concepts which do not satisfy the regulator. I'd like to know more from Nox about the regulatory sign off for these vehicles and whether running them on domestic only itineraries is linked.

We already know head first is permissible because VY'S PlussNatt has been using it for several years (Pic attached)

 

[43096]

Very easy to run round a suitable loop or triangle during the day. The Riviera could do it but the Cally can't avoid a reversal.

Where could the Night Riviera reverse during the day at Penzance?

 

[JGurney]

The NightJet NG single sleeper cabins use direction-of-travel beds, so they’re fine in at least the majority of Western Europe.

So do the two-berth en-suite cabins on the stock NightJet introduced on the Vienna -Amsterdam route last year

You lie head-towards-loco going towards Amsterdam and feet-towards-loco towards Vienna.

 

[Amalie]

I find the “seating” carriage to be very clever from a business perspective. It allows them to buy regular carriages on the cheap and renovate them quickly instead of doing the European Sleeper thing of hunting for the precious few sleeping carriages that even exist on this continent. Focusing on a single route in a single country will also help them get more experience with the operational side of things and get some momentum.

 

[Austriantrain]

I'm intrigued by those beds that are in the direction of travel - I thought they'd be a no-no for the railway? Or am I thinking about rules that only exist in Britain but not elsewhere in Europe?

Certainly a UK specific rule. The new Nightjet sets have beds like that too.

 

[30907]

I'm intrigued by those beds that are in the direction of travel - I thought they'd be a no-no for the railway? Or am I thinking about rules that only exist in Britain but not elsewhere in Europe?

Surely the issue with Caley Sleeper AIUI was that they weren't proposing true flatbeds but ones that had a big recline, and that's where the risk of whiplash comes in?
Lie properly, and you may get a bumped head but no more - unless it's a Ladbroke Grove-level collision when nothing will make much difference.

 

[popeter45]

interesting route to begin with, when was the last Domestic only German sleeper route?

 

[AdamWW]

I find the “seating” carriage to be very clever from a business perspective. It allows them to buy regular carriages on the cheap and renovate them quickly instead of doing the European Sleeper thing of hunting for the precious few sleeping carriages that even exist on this continent.

Their sleeper carriages will also be made from regular carriages.

 

[signed]

I find the “seating” carriage to be very clever from a business perspective. It allows them to buy regular carriages on the cheap and renovate them quickly instead of doing the European Sleeper thing of hunting for the precious few sleeping carriages that even exist on this continent. Focusing on a single route in a single country will also help them get more experience with the operational side of things and get some momentum.

The route is the main issue IMO

They are fully against Nightjet New Generation, with worst paths

In the western direction, Nightjet departs 2h later and gets in few minutes earlier

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

I find the “seating” carriage to be very clever from a business perspective. It allows them to buy regular carriages on the cheap and renovate them quickly instead of doing the European Sleeper thing of hunting for the precious few sleeping carriages that even exist on this continent

That's true for the compartments as well. The carriage Nox are exhibiting is a converted DB IC1 seating car with examples of all their accommodation types.

Another Germany company developing sleeping pods to convert existing carriages, Luna Rail, is also exhibiting at InnoTrans. Luna's carriage carries the logos of partner companies including RDC, one of the rental companies that provides stock for European Sleeper.

The Railcolor guide to InnoTrans 2026's outdoor rolling stock - Railcolor News

Every two years, Berlin becomes the center of the global rail industry as InnoTrans opens its doors to manufacturers, operators, and railway enthusiasts from around the world.

railcolornews.com

 

[AdamWW]

The route is the main issue IMO

They are fully against Nightjet New Generation, with worst paths

In the western direction, Nightjet departs 2h later and gets in few minutes earlier

Getting 2 more hours in bed isn't necessarily a bad thing!

 

[AlterEgo]

Their sleeper carriages will also be made from regular carriages.

Will they?

 

[Amalie]

Their sleeper carriages will also be made from regular carriages.

Of course, but the most of the renovations here is just changing the seats.

Will they?

If you look at how their rooms are setup, it would be much easier to start with a fully empty carriage than one with rooms inside as they would have to completely tear down those walls anyway given their custom and unorthodox room layouts.

 

[377electrostar]

I have been following NOX since the beginning, it's great to see the advancements being made. Hamburg to Munich is quite an interesting route, I am surprised that their first route wouldn't go through Berlin since that is where they are based! The idea of refurbishing withdrawn UIC-Z carriages from DB is a great idea, max. speed of 200km/h, smooth ride, big windows and can pretty much run anywhere in Europe that has standard guage as they carry RIC standards. I'm not too sure about the suites though, the walls are quite low down so they don't scream privacy to me. I heard that they were sourced from the same company that manufactures suites that are used on some of the high-speed trains in China, and I can see some similarities. To me, the suites were a last-minute descision as they want to push-out these trains as soon as possible. Originally, Nox was meant to be an operator providing fully-private rooms from the offset. Aside from that, all the best to Thibault and his amazing team. I look forward to their introduction in Poland, sometime in the near future

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Wednesday at 21:51 ==

Will they?

They are, DB is withdrawing the majority of their IC1 UIC-Z carriages because of their replacement with Talgo rubbish. Because of this, they are quite abundant and many operators have taken them on (PKP Intercity, LEO Express, Flixtrain, BDŽ) - their RIC capabilities make them even more attractive for a startup like Nox, meaning they could run almost anywhere in Europe!

 

[williamn]

The route is the main issue IMO

They are fully against Nightjet New Generation, with worst paths

In the western direction, Nightjet departs 2h later and gets in few minutes earlier

Quite a different price point and proposition though (starting at €65 for a suite).

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

If you look at how their rooms are setup, it would be much easier to start with a fully empty carriage than one with rooms inside as they would have to completely tear down those walls anyway given their custom and unorthodox room layouts.

The unorthodox layouts are driven as much by the need to use seating carriages as by any desire to reimagine night trains. Nox are making a virtue out of a necessity, and they wouldn't have gone in this direction if they had got their hands on couchettes or sleepers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Wednesday at 23:37 ==

DB is withdrawing the majority of their IC1 UIC-Z carriages because of their replacement with Talgo rubbish.

The last IC1s will be withdrawn in October.

IC1 the end - no more classic loco-hauled intercities in Germany - Railcolor News

Fans from all over Germany (and abroad?) came to the Free State of Thuringia, Germany, this weekend to document the very last intercity revenue services operated with IC1 coaches in the country. The final trains (IC 2150/2/5/7) ran between Gotha and Gera.

railcolornews.com

Fans from all over Germany (and abroad?) came to the Free State of Thuringia, Germany, this weekend to document the very last intercity revenue services operated with IC1 coaches in the country. The final trains (IC 2150/2/5/7) ran between Gotha and Gera.

[...]

What’s left now is a couple of farewell rides, starting on September 25. It will officially be over on October 10.

 

[danshrimp]

To me, the suites were a last-minute descision as they want to push-out these trains as soon as possible. Originally, Nox was meant to be an operator providing fully-private rooms from the offset.

Yes that seems about right. As a long term solution it seems to offer a less space efficient solution and less privacy than the Nightjet mini cabins, for example (the only advantage being that they're presumably nicer to occupy in day mode - perhaps even to the point of being usable as first class on daytime trains too - but that's not hugely important on a route of this length). The mini cabins with potential for upright seating that Luna Rail are proposing seem like a better compromise.

 

[mike57]

I have been following Simply Railway and Thibault Constant on YouTube for sometime, and I hope his Nox venture is successful. His plans seem well thought out to me. Starting with route that doesn't cross any international borders has to be easier, and allow teething troubles to be ironed out.

Sleeper trains that leave in the (early if need be) evening, and arrive at their destination by say 8am have to be an attractive alternative to flight + hotel for travellers. To me the morning arrival time is the key. Journey time is less of an issue with a sleeper.

In terms of the layout the Nox layout seems to be an alternative to the NightJet pods. I dont have any personal experience, but having watched various reviews I can appreciate issues which users raise with the pods, mainly the claustrophobic nature of them. The Nox layout doesn't seem to fall into the same trap.

 

[jamesontheroad]

Very easy to run round a suitable loop or triangle during the day. The Riviera could do it but the Cally can't avoid a reversal.

Or maybe the beds could just be made with the pillow at the other end

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 08:44 ==

In terms of the layout the Nox layout seems to be an alternative to the NightJet pods. I dont have any personal experience, but having watched various reviews I can appreciate issues which users raise with the pods, mainly the claustrophobic nature of them. The Nox layout doesn't seem to fall into the same trap.

What seems to be key is that Nox has developed a prototype with all 4 grades of sleeping accommodation in the same carriage. I'm not sure the finished product will be like this, but a fleet of identical carriages with all grades of accommodation in the same vehicle would be much more operationally resilient than 1 couchette car, 1 sleeping car, 1 seated car, etc.

 

[BRX]

Starting with route that doesn't cross any international borders has to be easier

Although being within Germany's borders may not be ideal for reliability at the moment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or maybe the beds could just be made with the pillow at the other end

At 3am? A premium service doesn't wake you up in the middle of the night to ask you to turn around, with the train unable to move if someone's second word is "off".

The problem with the Cally is the reversal in the middle of the night. Most other night trains don't have this issue or it can be reasonably easily avoided by running routes not involving a reversal. For the Cally to do that it'd need to switch to the ECML.

A night train from Hamburg to Munich does not suffer this issue - no mid journey reversal is necessary.

 

[AlterEgo]

Although being within Germany's borders may not be ideal for reliability at the moment.

With the right timetable padding it may work.